Upgrading AV Receiver for New HD Sound Formats

[allgonepetetong]

Chaps

I have an aging Yamaha RXV640 which has served me well. Only thing is it does not have HDMI input so is unable to take a HD Audio signal from my PS3.

I'd like to upgrade to a decoder that can accept HDMI so am looking for some recommendations.

I would only use it for it's processing abilities as I have a Cyrus 3 stereo amp which I use to power the front stereo speakers and a pair of Cyrus Power amps that run the center and rears. (one of them bi-amps the center speaker using both left and right channels).

My first thought was to get a Cyrus AV decoder, but these are not compatible with the new HD audio formats, so I am now thinking of a Yamaha or Onkyo AV decoder while using my Cyrus off board amplification via pre-out.

Any thoughts or recommendations chaps?

[Plotloss]

The Onkyo Processor is pretty good.

Rough budget?

[allgonepetetong]

I'm not sure really, Plotty. Whatever it takes I suppose.

[Plotloss]

Onkyo PRC-886 comes in at £1500 ish.

[allgonepetetong]

Perhaps I should have been a bit more accurate with price.

I can see why you suggest a 1500 pre amp as if bought new, my amplification would be around the same. However, I only purchased my Cyrus 3 from new and the 2 power amps were picked up for a total of 300 quid.

So, as my amplification has cost a total of 800 over the course of 13 years, is there perhaps a cheaper alternative to keep things a bit more "real"?

Maybe there is a good AV Amp which has good processing, but concentrates less on the amplification side of things, if you see what I mean, so I can improve it's performance by using my off board amplification.

A long shot I know, but any suggestions welcome.

[Plotloss]

Just about any modern amp has pre-outs.

You could start at something like the Onkyo 607 and go from there.

I was under the impression you were after the performance of a processor in isolation rather than a front end to your existing amps.

[allgonepetetong]

That looks perfect. It has all the connectivity and processing I need which I can then improve with my off board amplification.

I understand why you thought about a proper pre-amp, and if funds permit I would like to go down that route, but while I would also like to get a PJ, 1500 on a processor is just a little out of my reach.

Thanks for the advise.

Barry

[oola]

The Onkyo's are packed with features and even their basic models are good value. We've bought 3 NR-906's this week for customers cinema rooms we're putting together.

[JustinP1]

allgonepetetong said:

That looks perfect. It has all the connectivity and processing I need which I can then improve with my off board amplification.

I understand why you thought about a proper pre-amp, and if funds permit I would like to go down that route, but while I would also like to get a PJ, 1500 on a processor is just a little out of my reach.

Thanks for the advise.

Barry

Stop what you are doing.

The PS3 already can take an audio stream from blu-ray to the highest bitrate possible under the old Dolby and DTS standards through optical.

This level of specification was specifically designed so that any compression of the audio that takes place should be inaudible from the original stream.

In a recent test some very good hi-fi reviewers actually went to the Dolby and DTS labs to hear the difference between the standard and HD formats in perfect listening rooms with money no object equipment. They agreed that the difference was so small it was not even immediately obvious, in fact it was tiny - one you had to really listen for.

I would therefore suggest that to an averagely interested listener who routinely spends less than tens of thousands of pounds on their home system it would be impossible to actually appreciate any real difference in a proper test.

You already have some pretty decent kit, and some good amps. If you are going to spend a few hundred quid replacing that on an AV amp you will probably end up with a worse sound than what you already have.

Even if you were just out to get a standalone processor, as I have mentioned, on the kind of kit you have it will be impossible to hear any difference. You be able to get a better processor than what you already have, but it wont sound better because of the higher bitrate.

Edited by JustinP1 on Saturday 20th June 12:14

[WZC1]

The PS3 already can take an audio stream from blu-ray to the highest bitrate possible under the old Dolby and DTS standards through optical.


In a recent test some very good hi-fi reviewers actually went to the Dolby and DTS labs to hear the difference between the standard and HD formats in perfect listening rooms with money no object equipment. They agreed that the difference was so small it was not even immediately obvious, in fact it was tiny - one you had to really listen for.

quote]

The PS3 will pass HD audio through its HDMI connection - there is not enough bandwidth capability in an optical cable to pass a full uncompressed stream.

Do you have details of this test and who conducted it - time after time the difference between DTS-MA and standard DTS soundtracks is higly marked to us. With the highest resolution systems we can put together DVD can sound exceptionaly good and better than DTS-MA on a budget system but in the same system the difference is always there. We have been installing lossless setups ever since they were available and I am yet to hear one that didnt benefit from the resolution.

In answer to the OP Plotloss is correct that most AV Amps around the £500 mark have pre-outputs. Finding one that works with your Cyrus will be easy , it all depends on your speakers. The Onkyo may be a bit forward with the Cyrus but there are loads of alternatives.

Nick
Nick

[allgonepetetong]

Nick

To answer your questions regarding speakers, my front stereo pair are an old set of NEAT Petite mk1, my center is currently a B&W CC1 which is to be replaced as is sounds muddy, undefined and enclosed to my ears. Surrounds are B&W 600 S3.

The amps I am considering are not HD audio decoders as suggested by Plotty, but are able to accept LPCM via HDMI as the PS3 can do the decoding on board. Amps such as Yamaha RXV1700 and Onkyo TX SR705 ad such like. Which would you recommend with my speakers?
I'll continue to run lossless files direct to the Cyrus 3 via my Squeezebox, so stereo is not a consideration.

Thanks for your comments JustinP1, It seems to me that if I have the facility to stream HD Audio from Blu Ray, I should take advantage of that and for a few hundred quid (if bought 2nd hand) it would be silly not to.

Edited by allgonepetetong on Sunday 21st June 16:16

[JustinP1]

WZC1 said:

...Do you have details of this test and who conducted it - time after time the difference between DTS-MA and standard DTS soundtracks is higly marked to us. With the highest resolution systems we can put together DVD can sound exceptionaly good and better than DTS-MA on a budget system but in the same system the difference is always there...

I would completely agree that even on a reasonably modest system you can hear the difference between DD, DTS and their HD counterparts because you are not comparing an apple with another apple, you are comparing an apple to an orange - because you are hearing a different frequency response, volume level and most of the time a completely different mix.

With testing like this you have to make sure you are just not hearing what you want to hear.


Here's the link to the review:

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA...

It is very rare to be able to compare two identical sources in a significant scientific way - they have done that in that test and found that:

"The shocker came when we compared the lower 448 kbps Dolby Digital DVD bitrate to the original. There was an audible difference, but it was only ever-so-slightly noticeable (and this is with a high end audio system in an acoustically controlled environment that is so far beyond what typical home theater systems are capable of resolving). There was just the slightest decrease in presence with the DD version, not exactly a softening of the sound, but just a tad less ambience and a similarly small tightening of the front soundstage’s depth."

If in a 'perfect' test in a perfect listening environment with money no object kit means the difference as 448kbps is tiny, IMHO if the PS3 can at least put 1.5mbps - 3 times that amount of data over optical then putting the audio over HDMI just to get that bit more is not going to have a real world difference unless you are listening in an ultimate listening environment.