Most accurate proper subwoofer?
Discussion
I'm talking real extention - flat to 20Hz in room with very accurate start and stops so as not to blur music. I guess I want AV style depth, but with swift musical high fidelity.
Under 4 cubic foot would be ideal, so no infinite baffle / loft / room next door instals. Best I've had so far is PMC transmission line powered by Bryston 7BSST. Worst was a terribly blurred REL. The missus wants it semi compact with no external amps all over the place. Ok then, let's add to the shortlist for me to check out, cheers...
Velodyne - technical wonderkid,
BK Monolith - flat to 15 in room, but accurate enough?
any more... ?
Under 4 cubic foot would be ideal, so no infinite baffle / loft / room next door instals. Best I've had so far is PMC transmission line powered by Bryston 7BSST. Worst was a terribly blurred REL. The missus wants it semi compact with no external amps all over the place. Ok then, let's add to the shortlist for me to check out, cheers...
Velodyne - technical wonderkid,
BK Monolith - flat to 15 in room, but accurate enough?
any more... ?
Edited by k-ink on Monday 8th June 18:42
Well, for starters, you won't be getting flat response to 15Hz or the like unless you live in a Cathedral.
Room boundaries will see to that as will the corners unless you've some Bass Traps installed, which I'm guessing the answer will be no.
What dimensions and shape are you playing with?
Room boundaries will see to that as will the corners unless you've some Bass Traps installed, which I'm guessing the answer will be no.
What dimensions and shape are you playing with?
How about an SVS, I have the sb12+ and its superb :-).
http://www.subsonicsounds.co.uk/html/subwoofers.ht...
http://www.subsonicsounds.co.uk/html/subwoofers.ht...
Velodyne or SVS or BK ...all good options ...tested to death on www.avtalk.co.ukwww.avforums.com
personally I like my Velo DD15, but thats because of the software built in and how easy it is to integrate with the mains ...other solutions are availble now though - an SMS1 + BK monolith would do the job at 1/2 the price...but not look the same
personally I like my Velo DD15, but thats because of the software built in and how easy it is to integrate with the mains ...other solutions are availble now though - an SMS1 + BK monolith would do the job at 1/2 the price...but not look the same
For that sort odf in room resonce, you'll need to EQ - no matter what kit you put in.
I use a pair Infinity Prelude 15's; they drop to 20 in room with a listening position trace of +1-2 dB. Better would be to use a big passive sub and a decent parametric EQ, but the missus has said no to that - so your options are more limited. Some other manufacturors do EQ as well (posh M+K maybe), so have a look around.
Position wise, have it right up against a wall on a nodal point, or better use 2 or 4 smaller subs if you're after better similarity from position to position - this will cost SPL though.
IMO, although BK, SVS etc get uber-bummed on AvForums, I've never heard a decent install with one. I know it's cool on a forum to like things that most retailers don't sell in shops, but there's usually a reason for the lack of coverage!
I use a pair Infinity Prelude 15's; they drop to 20 in room with a listening position trace of +1-2 dB. Better would be to use a big passive sub and a decent parametric EQ, but the missus has said no to that - so your options are more limited. Some other manufacturors do EQ as well (posh M+K maybe), so have a look around.
Position wise, have it right up against a wall on a nodal point, or better use 2 or 4 smaller subs if you're after better similarity from position to position - this will cost SPL though.
IMO, although BK, SVS etc get uber-bummed on AvForums, I've never heard a decent install with one. I know it's cool on a forum to like things that most retailers don't sell in shops, but there's usually a reason for the lack of coverage!
"I've never heard a decent install with one", I listened to many subwoofers before I chose the SVS and in my opinion it sounded a lot better than what many of the mainstream brands (Rel,M.A,MJ) etc offer at the same sort of price point!. I would have no hesitation in reccomending SVS, or BK for that matter.
I have the B&W ASW4000.
It is powered and powerful enough to literally shake doors on their hinges. Not surprisingly the depth extends lower than my B&W N802's at the front.
They also have two settings. A 'max power' setting and a 'B' setting which is more controlled but extends lower which is what I use.
As well as being stunningly low and powerful for AV, it is also great for music. Kick drums extend so low that you can feel the pressure wave on your face and chest whilst still being perfectly in proportion to the rest of the source. It is a beautiful thing.
It is powered and powerful enough to literally shake doors on their hinges. Not surprisingly the depth extends lower than my B&W N802's at the front.
They also have two settings. A 'max power' setting and a 'B' setting which is more controlled but extends lower which is what I use.
As well as being stunningly low and powerful for AV, it is also great for music. Kick drums extend so low that you can feel the pressure wave on your face and chest whilst still being perfectly in proportion to the rest of the source. It is a beautiful thing.
We use the Sunfire range of subs - have a look at the TruSub Eq Signature - and the performance/price /size ratio works for the vast majority of situations. It does depend on the rest of your set up and your room size but with the figures you are looking for there is also the Kef Referenc 209. This is a mighty 18" sub and I doubt you will find it lacking !
Nick
Nick
WZC1 said:
We use the Sunfire range of subs - have a look at the TruSub Eq Signature - and the performance/price /size ratio works for the vast majority of situations
This is what we'd also recommend if the M&K is a little big (asthetically) for the application.They are very very very good.
as far as im aware, there are no global league tables of subwoofer performance, no 0-60 times equivalents, so even coming up with a means to measure and gather stats is hard enough...theyve tried to do it technically here ,http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?s=e39327b94236742a363e7323f68a0078&f=54 but of course we all know that something may technically perform better, but not sound better
so weve come to the conclusion that there are as many choices of "good sub" as there are "good hi-fi" speakers and the rest is down to looks, price, taste and of course, technical performance ...nothing new then LOL
you will always get different opinions depending on which forum you go to, which magazine you read, and which shop you buy from...as always, one persons "wow thats awesome" is another persons "been there and upgraded that 5 years ago" and no matter what you have, there will always be someone with something better ....
so weve come to the conclusion that there are as many choices of "good sub" as there are "good hi-fi" speakers and the rest is down to looks, price, taste and of course, technical performance ...nothing new then LOL
you will always get different opinions depending on which forum you go to, which magazine you read, and which shop you buy from...as always, one persons "wow thats awesome" is another persons "been there and upgraded that 5 years ago" and no matter what you have, there will always be someone with something better ....
Its pretty simple to measure relative sub performance acoustically the trouble comes in creating the room in which to conduct the test.
Hardly anyone, including signficant sectors of the AV industry (sadly) do not pay enough/any attention to the room and its the most important thing by miles.
Anything under 150hz you're listening to the room, not the sub.
Hardly anyone, including signficant sectors of the AV industry (sadly) do not pay enough/any attention to the room and its the most important thing by miles.
Anything under 150hz you're listening to the room, not the sub.
Plotloss said:
Its pretty simple to measure relative sub performance acoustically the trouble comes in creating the room in which to conduct the test.
Hardly anyone, including signficant sectors of the AV industry (sadly) do not pay enough/any attention to the room and its the most important thing by miles.
Anything under 150hz you're listening to the room, not the sub.
agreed, in most instances, once you are up to a certain amount of cash spent, there are more gains to be made by sorting out the room RQ, than by simply "upgrading" productsHardly anyone, including signficant sectors of the AV industry (sadly) do not pay enough/any attention to the room and its the most important thing by miles.
Anything under 150hz you're listening to the room, not the sub.
but how can a sub manufacturer control what room a customer chooses to listen in ....
I guess this is where the trend has come from in recent years of auto-EQ in sub and receiver products
bogie said:
but how can a sub manufacturer control what room a customer chooses to listen in ....
It cant, its beholden on its dealer network to not simply sell the biggest most expensive box but to match the components to the environment in which they are going to be used.Either that or for the dealer to be involved in the contstruction of the room, if possible, from the get go.
Plotloss said:
bogie said:
but how can a sub manufacturer control what room a customer chooses to listen in ....
It cant, its beholden on its dealer network to not simply sell the biggest most expensive box but to match the components to the environment in which they are going to be used.Either that or for the dealer to be involved in the contstruction of the room, if possible, from the get go.
I think the B&W way forward is quite a useful one. Not sure if they use it on all the subs but you can switch the phase and also give two options of response curves.
I was dubious at first before I tried, but they made a hell of a difference. As you say though it is down to the room reflections, but the choice of 4 options meant that you had flexibility without lugging the thing poking numerous spike holes around the carpet.
Adaptive voicing is certainly a way forward and its whats driving a lot of the upper end kit that has RoomEQ at its core.
However the problems inherent with rooms are solved be it with reconstruction, traps or clever electronics its always better to have at least considered it before playing Top Trumps with speaker specification.
As the neighbour of a client of mine discovered to his cost on discovering the 4ft void between the board and the tanking in a basement after spending £30K on cinema gear.
However the problems inherent with rooms are solved be it with reconstruction, traps or clever electronics its always better to have at least considered it before playing Top Trumps with speaker specification.
As the neighbour of a client of mine discovered to his cost on discovering the 4ft void between the board and the tanking in a basement after spending £30K on cinema gear.
JustinP1 said:
Plotloss said:
bogie said:
but how can a sub manufacturer control what room a customer chooses to listen in ....
It cant, its beholden on its dealer network to not simply sell the biggest most expensive box but to match the components to the environment in which they are going to be used.Either that or for the dealer to be involved in the contstruction of the room, if possible, from the get go.
I think the B&W way forward is quite a useful one. Not sure if they use it on all the subs but you can switch the phase and also give two options of response curves.
I was dubious at first before I tried, but they made a hell of a difference. As you say though it is down to the room reflections, but the choice of 4 options meant that you had flexibility without lugging the thing poking numerous spike holes around the carpet.
...hence why they are very popular ...and quite expensive
Thanks guys, yes of course it's all about the integration with the room. I think that's why my transmission lines were so successful, as they're known for coupling rather easily. If I were just choosing a driver in isolation it would be easy - Aura Sound NS18-992-4A. ALthough I think the 20 odd cubic foot enclosure may offend the other half and the foundations 
ps
I remember hearing good things about that M&K. I rather liked the speed of the little 8 they used to make. So I can only imagine it must have been worth a listen. Shame the company and all spares have disappeared now, so it's kind of irrelevant.
Interesting you rate the sunfire. I recall their ad's - ten million watts in something the size of a rubiks cube I didn't exactly take their product seriously so never auditioned one.
ps
I remember hearing good things about that M&K. I rather liked the speed of the little 8 they used to make. So I can only imagine it must have been worth a listen. Shame the company and all spares have disappeared now, so it's kind of irrelevant.
Interesting you rate the sunfire. I recall their ad's - ten million watts in something the size of a rubiks cube
I didn't exactly take their product seriously so never auditioned one.Edited by k-ink on Tuesday 9th June 17:45
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