Vinyl Sounds Better
Discussion
I can't believe I'm saying it - but it does. It just does.
This flies in the face of everything I know.
I'm a digital engineer, I've got a great understanding on sampling theory, I have even designed my own down and up converters and digital signal processing chains for far higher bandwidth signals than audio which worked flawlessly and reconstructed the input waveform at the output.
Even overlaying the input analogue signal into the ADC over the output waveform from the DAC.
AND it gets worse, I know that every studio that modern album are recorded in are recorded digitally so there really ought to be no benefit to converting to analogue and using vinyl as the storage medium.
I got a cheap project-e turntable of the Mrs for my Xmas and played some tracks back to back using MAX Tidal albums over a 1GHz network connection and the vinyl just sounds better. It's night and day.
Balls. This is going to be an expensive present, I have a lot of CDs to replace.
This flies in the face of everything I know.
I'm a digital engineer, I've got a great understanding on sampling theory, I have even designed my own down and up converters and digital signal processing chains for far higher bandwidth signals than audio which worked flawlessly and reconstructed the input waveform at the output.
Even overlaying the input analogue signal into the ADC over the output waveform from the DAC.
AND it gets worse, I know that every studio that modern album are recorded in are recorded digitally so there really ought to be no benefit to converting to analogue and using vinyl as the storage medium.
I got a cheap project-e turntable of the Mrs for my Xmas and played some tracks back to back using MAX Tidal albums over a 1GHz network connection and the vinyl just sounds better. It's night and day.
Balls. This is going to be an expensive present, I have a lot of CDs to replace.
It is a slippery slope!
I used to work on hifi magazines right around the time that CD's were launched - the subject of vinyl sounding better was discussed ad infinitum.
It was generally thought that vinyl had more 'weight' somehow - but it was impossible to argue because digital had hard numbers on their side - along with the known range of the human ear. But, vinyl persisted in sounding different and often better. Whether that was AAA, AAD, ADD, or DDD.
The fact that you needed astronomically expensive turntables and cartridges to extract this difference was also frequently argued.
These days I stream in high definition via Qobuz - but apart from a few recordings, music doesn't hit me in the way that it did via my LP12 and Musical Fidelity pre amp etc. I put that down to my advancing years, but I have some doubts!
I used to work on hifi magazines right around the time that CD's were launched - the subject of vinyl sounding better was discussed ad infinitum.
It was generally thought that vinyl had more 'weight' somehow - but it was impossible to argue because digital had hard numbers on their side - along with the known range of the human ear. But, vinyl persisted in sounding different and often better. Whether that was AAA, AAD, ADD, or DDD.
The fact that you needed astronomically expensive turntables and cartridges to extract this difference was also frequently argued.
These days I stream in high definition via Qobuz - but apart from a few recordings, music doesn't hit me in the way that it did via my LP12 and Musical Fidelity pre amp etc. I put that down to my advancing years, but I have some doubts!
Aye, I’ll be on the Linn factory tour soon enough. I went to the launch of their new speakers before Christmas there and thought they sounded great.
But they put the LP12 through the Klimax streamer which then digitises the phono input. For me that defeats the LP12 but hey ho. They are a nice bunch and I look forward to the factory tour.
And yes, slippery slope indeed. I only meant to get a bloody Bluetooth speaker for my home office due to wfh. That’s now a full on separates system.
But they put the LP12 through the Klimax streamer which then digitises the phono input. For me that defeats the LP12 but hey ho. They are a nice bunch and I look forward to the factory tour.
And yes, slippery slope indeed. I only meant to get a bloody Bluetooth speaker for my home office due to wfh. That’s now a full on separates system.
Vinyl sometimes sounds better because the recording is better mixed.
Also I think some hifi can't cope with the full spectrum of CD recordings.
And some CD players and DACs are not as good as people make out.
How would it sound if you digitised the signal that comes from a cartridge and replayed it through a phone stage and amp?
Could you make a digital recording sound like vinyl by band limiting it and adding crosstalk and all the other 'flaws' of vinyl reproduction.
TBH, to me, it usually just sounds like a good, better or poor recording of whatever the music is.
Also I think some hifi can't cope with the full spectrum of CD recordings.
And some CD players and DACs are not as good as people make out.
How would it sound if you digitised the signal that comes from a cartridge and replayed it through a phone stage and amp?
Could you make a digital recording sound like vinyl by band limiting it and adding crosstalk and all the other 'flaws' of vinyl reproduction.
TBH, to me, it usually just sounds like a good, better or poor recording of whatever the music is.
I don't really think there is a 'better' between digital and vinyl; just that some people prefer one and some the other, and unfortunately some in both camps insist that the other lot are wrong.
I had a period of replacing vinyl with CD when CDs were new, but reverted back to vinyl which is definitely now my preference.
There are plenty of alternatives to an LP12 nowadays although I do like them- I have an early one from the 70s myself- and of course they are hugely upgradeable (a whole slippery slope of its own, which I have avoided!)
I had a period of replacing vinyl with CD when CDs were new, but reverted back to vinyl which is definitely now my preference.
There are plenty of alternatives to an LP12 nowadays although I do like them- I have an early one from the 70s myself- and of course they are hugely upgradeable (a whole slippery slope of its own, which I have avoided!)
mac96 said:
I don't really think there is a 'better' between digital and vinyl; just that some people prefer one and some the other, and unfortunately some in both camps insist that the other lot are wrong.
I had a period of replacing vinyl with CD when CDs were new, but reverted back to vinyl which is definitely now my preference.
There are plenty of alternatives to an LP12 nowadays although I do like them- I have an early one from the 70s myself- and of course they are hugely upgradeable (a whole slippery slope of its own, which I have avoided!)
Fair observation. I had a period of replacing vinyl with CD when CDs were new, but reverted back to vinyl which is definitely now my preference.
There are plenty of alternatives to an LP12 nowadays although I do like them- I have an early one from the 70s myself- and of course they are hugely upgradeable (a whole slippery slope of its own, which I have avoided!)
I still stream and listen to my cds and enjoy them.
But…
I was (sort of still am!) a dj for many years mixing on both vinyl and cd, quite often both mediums in the same set, vinyl definitely sounds different but I'm not convinced it's better. As said above, vinyl has more 'weight', I always put this down to the RIAA equalisation that phono pre amps apply, it sort of has the same effect as putting a 'smiley face' on your graphic eq or pushing the 'loudness' button on your amp and we all know a smiley face eq sounds better...
The problem I've sometimes found is that if you played vinyl on a big system that was set up with a cd or wav file is that all that extra 'weight' can make the bass sound muddy. I always preferred mixing on vinyl though, it's so much more tactile.
The problem I've sometimes found is that if you played vinyl on a big system that was set up with a cd or wav file is that all that extra 'weight' can make the bass sound muddy. I always preferred mixing on vinyl though, it's so much more tactile.
Sporky said:
Thing is, how can you have an equivalent vinyl and CD setup in order to make a fair comparison?
That said, if one brings you more joy, that one is better.
I sat my 21 year old son in the hot seat over Christmas as he’s interested in getting a turntable. He blind tested Brothers in Arms through the following:That said, if one brings you more joy, that one is better.
Naim NAC72
Naim NAP140
Quad 22Ls
And with three sources:
LP12 with Cirkus, Ittok and Dynavector 10x5
Spotify full fat streaming
Denon DCD520AE CD
The vinyl blew him away. It’s immaculate so no pops and scratches and he couldn’t tell which was which. CD was a close second but he said sounded a bit harsh (yes, it’s not the best CD player in the world but it’s pretty good). Spotify a looooong way behind.
Sporky said:
NDA said:
Spotify is only 16bit/44.1 isn't it?
Dunno, but if it is then it's not the sample rate or bit depth that are lacking. I've been messing around with my records and a new stereo set ups and have really enjoyed listening to vynil.
It's really enjoyable to listen to in a way that's difficult to properly quantify.
As an analogy I'd liken it to the voice of a singer like Johnny Cash.
I am sure there are thousands of singers with a measurably better singing voice but he's got such an expressive voice it's absolutely beautiful.
(Replace Johnny Cash with your favourite singer if required)
It's really enjoyable to listen to in a way that's difficult to properly quantify.
As an analogy I'd liken it to the voice of a singer like Johnny Cash.
I am sure there are thousands of singers with a measurably better singing voice but he's got such an expressive voice it's absolutely beautiful.
(Replace Johnny Cash with your favourite singer if required)
w1bbles said:
I sat my 21 year old son in the hot seat over Christmas as he’s interested in getting a turntable. He blind tested Brothers in Arms through the following:
Naim NAC72
Naim NAP140
Quad 22Ls
And with three sources:
LP12 with Cirkus, Ittok and Dynavector 10x5
Spotify full fat streaming
Denon DCD520AE CD
The vinyl blew him away. It’s immaculate so no pops and scratches and he couldn’t tell which was which. CD was a close second but he said sounded a bit harsh (yes, it’s not the best CD player in the world but it’s pretty good). Spotify a looooong way behind.
Which CD mastering? This is quite an important factor.Naim NAC72
Naim NAP140
Quad 22Ls
And with three sources:
LP12 with Cirkus, Ittok and Dynavector 10x5
Spotify full fat streaming
Denon DCD520AE CD
The vinyl blew him away. It’s immaculate so no pops and scratches and he couldn’t tell which was which. CD was a close second but he said sounded a bit harsh (yes, it’s not the best CD player in the world but it’s pretty good). Spotify a looooong way behind.
I recorded a bunch of my vinyl records that I think sound better than the CD.
Then I got my long suffering Mrs to play either the record or the recording of the vinyl from the PC.
Long story short, there was no detectable difference between the vinyl and my computer recording of the vinyl.
However the vinyl does sound different from the store bought CD (ripped as FLAC and played through the same PC).
What I take from that is either the vinyl is mastered differerently to the CD sometimes, or maybe the cartridge changes the sound in a pleasant way. I don't however think the vinyl format itself is better than digital, otherwise it would sound different to the PC recording of it.
Then I got my long suffering Mrs to play either the record or the recording of the vinyl from the PC.
Long story short, there was no detectable difference between the vinyl and my computer recording of the vinyl.
However the vinyl does sound different from the store bought CD (ripped as FLAC and played through the same PC).
What I take from that is either the vinyl is mastered differerently to the CD sometimes, or maybe the cartridge changes the sound in a pleasant way. I don't however think the vinyl format itself is better than digital, otherwise it would sound different to the PC recording of it.
Edited by budgie smuggler on Friday 31st January 22:45
w1bbles said:
Sporky said:
Thing is, how can you have an equivalent vinyl and CD setup in order to make a fair comparison?
That said, if one brings you more joy, that one is better.
I sat my 21 year old son in the hot seat over Christmas as he’s interested in getting a turntable. He blind tested Brothers in Arms through the following:That said, if one brings you more joy, that one is better.
Naim NAC72
Naim NAP140
Quad 22Ls
And with three sources:
LP12 with Cirkus, Ittok and Dynavector 10x5
Spotify full fat streaming
Denon DCD520AE CD
The vinyl blew him away. It’s immaculate so no pops and scratches and he couldn’t tell which was which. CD was a close second but he said sounded a bit harsh (yes, it’s not the best CD player in the world but it’s pretty good). Spotify a looooong way behind.
One thing to note though is that some CDs sound absolutely awful which may be another reason why there's the perception that LPs sound better. A prime example I've listened to recently is Mother's Milk by RHCP. The remaster has everything boosted to 11 and sounds terrible compared to the originals.
Do new release LPs also get the "louder is better" treatment?
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