New Turntable suggestions?

[PM3]

In a quandry about what to get next . I think I would budget in region of 2K
Curtrently have Pro-Ject Debut pro with Ortofon 2M Blue and a pretty decent phono stage

I do wonder if I should be updgrading the cartridge , or going in with a "better" deck as a ptatform for future . I do get the sneaking suspicion that messing around with a bit more oney is just a waste and maybe go all in with a heavier budget .... or sit back and what I have is probably good enough

I would really appreciate opionion of anyone who has done similar in recent history , especially if anyone has upgraded say the platter and/or cartridge on a similar deck .

[Panamax]

... or a decent CD player.

Any album made in the last 25 years will have been recorded digitally. They then convert it to analog to put it on the record and you have to convert it again to a different form of analog through a noisy mechanical process. Similarly every festival and significant live gig will be going through a digital sound board. The resurrection of vinyl is IMO a side effect of people having been listening to music on phones and laptops, leading them to believe "digital" doesn't sound good.

IMO once you get anywhere near high end gear of any flavour your experience is generally more limited by the quality of the recording/transfer/pressing than by your equipment. And I do love the "silence" of digital between tracks. (Also the "blackness" of OLED television.)

[outnumbered]

PM3 said:

In a quandry about what to get next . I think I would budget in region of 2K
Curtrently have Pro-Ject Debut pro with Ortofon 2M Blue and a pretty decent phono stage

I do wonder if I should be updgrading the cartridge , or going in with a "better" deck as a ptatform for future . I do get the sneaking suspicion that messing around with a bit more oney is just a waste and maybe go all in with a heavier budget .... or sit back and what I have is probably good enough

I would really appreciate opionion of anyone who has done similar in recent history , especially if anyone has upgraded say the platter and/or cartridge on a similar deck .

What are you looking to improve ?

Vinyl is such a technically compromised medium that the replay equipment once you get past the very basic TTs is incredibly varied. People will swear by such and such a combination of TT, plinth, arm board, arm, cartridge, power supply, phono stage, etc, to the extent that I doubt anyone has exactly the same setup as anyone else ! Since it's all personal preference/imagination, I'd say it's hard to actually make a solid recommendation.

Personally I sold all my vinyl 20+ years ago and went all digital, but if I still had to use vinyl I'd be looking at a Waxwing DSP phono stage, or similar, which has some powerful features for reducing the sonic annoyances of vinyl.

No doubt everyone else will have a different answer

[P700DEE]

Digital.... doesn't have passion of Vinyl , or of course the faults. I still find records from the 70s and 80s sound better than any the digital re-issue. I've not tested the remastered vinyl vs the remastered digital enough to conclude and with an extensive 90s+ collection of Cds I can't afford to buy them on LP.

Turntables, I'm lucky I still have my Pink Triangle and the upgrade cost on that compared to friends Linns is minimal and I still think it sounds as good. I've heard lots of very big £££ cost turntables at shows and quite a few decent ones in friends systems. That said Nottingham Analogues, Origin Lives, Gyrodek/Orbe, SME are all out of your £2k budget and thats second hand. The cost of new Vinyl systems increases exponentially, I'm not sure your £2k budget will get you a significant benefit. Still theres lots of Hi-Fi shops who can show you the difference and part you from your cash. I still remember cycling to Tonbridge (pre car!) and hearing a demo of a Dual CS505 (interested in buying) then being demo'd the same record on an LP12 , Ittok etc. No contest and the bug stuck. Even then the Dual was about £70 the Linn combo £1000. to get a big difference from your current system you may need to raise the budget x10!

[Dingu]

Panamax said:

... or a decent CD player.

Any album made in the last 25 years will have been recorded digitally. They then convert it to analog to put it on the record and you have to convert it again to a different form of analog through a noisy mechanical process. Similarly every festival and significant live gig will be going through a digital sound board. The resurrection of vinyl is IMO a side effect of people having been listening to music on phones and laptops, leading them to believe "digital" doesn't sound good.

IMO once you get anywhere near high end gear of any flavour your experience is generally more limited by the quality of the recording/transfer/pressing than by your equipment. And I do love the "silence" of digital between tracks. (Also the "blackness" of OLED television.)

Christ you sound boring.

Guess you have an EV since they are objectively better than ICE?

[PM3]

Panamax said:

... or a decent CD player.

Any album made in the last 25 years will have been recorded digitally. They then convert it to analog to put it on the record and you have to convert it again to a different form of analog through a noisy mechanical process. Similarly every festival and significant live gig will be going through a digital sound board. The resurrection of vinyl is IMO a side effect of people having been listening to music on phones and laptops, leading them to believe "digital" doesn't sound good.

IMO once you get anywhere near high end gear of any flavour your experience is generally more limited by the quality of the recording/transfer/pressing than by your equipment. And I do love the "silence" of digital between tracks. (Also the "blackness" of OLED television.)

I have 2 good CD players. I was asking about TT

[w1bbles]

I have a lovely Linn Sondek of 1980s vintage. I upgraded a few things on it a couple of years ago but the best upgrade for me was replacing the Ortofon 2M Blue with a Dynavector DV-10X5, which will cost you about £600. It's a high output MC cartridge, so no need to change your phono stage from MM to MC. See if you can go and listen to one and compare it to your Ortofon 2M Red. I personally found the Ortofon (Blue) to be quite harsh in comparison to the Dynavector.

[PM3]

outnumbered said:

What are you looking to improve ?

Vinyl is such a technically compromised medium that the replay equipment once you get past the very basic TTs is incredibly varied. People will swear by such and such a combination of TT, plinth, arm board, arm, cartridge, power supply, phono stage, etc, to the extent that I doubt anyone has exactly the same setup as anyone else ! Since it's all personal preference/imagination, I'd say it's hard to actually make a solid recommendation.

Personally I sold all my vinyl 20+ years ago and went all digital, but if I still had to use vinyl I'd be looking at a Waxwing DSP phono stage, or similar, which has some powerful features for reducing the sonic annoyances of vinyl.

No doubt everyone else will have a different answer

I have a powerful capability of a Phono thru digital stage in my pre amp. I dont use, I bypass to analogue path when playing LPs . I did find that upgrading the cartridge that the tt came with improved the treble response i was suffering with some of my old copies . Sibliance specifically was someting much improved in cases where I noticed it ( not uncommon ) .

I have a HUGE digital colection, mainly on CD and "ripped" versions of my CDs . I have Many albums whose mix is not available on CD or a legitimate digital version . I have a pretty big vinyl collection too

I was interested in the opinion of people who have recent experice in regard to turntables

[PM3]

w1bbles said:

I have a lovely Linn Sondek of 1980s vintage. I upgraded a few things on it a couple of years ago but the best upgrade for me was replacing the Ortofon 2M Blue with a Dynavector DV-10X5, which will cost you about £600. It's a high output MC cartridge, so no need to change your phono stage from MM to MC. See if you can go and listen to one and compare it to your Ortofon 2M Red. I personally found the Ortofon (Blue) to be quite harsh in comparison to the Dynavector.

Yeh, I missed the Linn Sondek boat and not going to go down that route. Good shout on the Cartridge , as I am using a 2M Blue right now and will see where I can get a demo
I can go MC already, but like the ideo of the higher output ( too much gain usually means higher noise floor )

[PM3]

P700DEE said:

Digital.... doesn't have passion of Vinyl , or of course the faults. I still find records from the 70s and 80s sound better than any the digital re-issue. I've not tested the remastered vinyl vs the remastered digital enough to conclude and with an extensive 90s+ collection of Cds I can't afford to buy them on LP.

Turntables, I'm lucky I still have my Pink Triangle and the upgrade cost on that compared to friends Linns is minimal and I still think it sounds as good. I've heard lots of very big £££ cost turntables at shows and quite a few decent ones in friends systems. That said Nottingham Analogues, Origin Lives, Gyrodek/Orbe, SME are all out of your £2k budget and thats second hand. The cost of new Vinyl systems increases exponentially, I'm not sure your £2k budget will get you a significant benefit. Still theres lots of Hi-Fi shops who can show you the difference and part you from your cash. I still remember cycling to Tonbridge (pre car!) and hearing a demo of a Dual CS505 (interested in buying) then being demo'd the same record on an LP12 , Ittok etc. No contest and the bug stuck. Even then the Dual was about £70 the Linn combo £1000. to get a big difference from your current system you may need to raise the budget x10!

Indeed, thanks for your contribution . My budget is not really a budget , but in my mind will not be spending really daft money like 20K . I am moving soon so new speakers will come when that happens.

[w1bbles]

PM3 said:

Yeh, I missed the Linn Sondek boat and not going to go down that route. Good shout on the Cartridge , as I am using a 2M Blue right now and will see where I can get a demo
I can go MC already, but like the ideo of the higher output ( too much gain usually means higher noise floor )

For whatever reason my brain interpreted your Blue as Red! I didn’t like my Blue (bought new, unheard, online) and the Dynavector (bought new after a Linn dealer demo) is a cracker. I upgraded the main bearing on my LP12 at the same time as the cartridge but I’m pretty sure the difference is 99% down to the cartridge as I couldn’t hear anything rumbly before I changed to a Cirkus and was probably sucked in by the hype.

I’ve got an upgraded power supply and Mk2 Ittok but I bet the Pro-Ject is a great platform in any case. I sold a Rega Planar 2 to buy a Linn (and then a better Linn) but I suspect I couldn’t hear the difference in a blind test. However I could definitely hear the difference between the Ortofon and the Dynavector. It was just subjective obviously but a big upgrade for my ears.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Dingu said:

Panamax said:

... or a decent CD player.

Any album made in the last 25 years will have been recorded digitally. They then convert it to analog to put it on the record and you have to convert it again to a different form of analog through a noisy mechanical process. Similarly every festival and significant live gig will be going through a digital sound board. The resurrection of vinyl is IMO a side effect of people having been listening to music on phones and laptops, leading them to believe "digital" doesn't sound good.

IMO once you get anywhere near high end gear of any flavour your experience is generally more limited by the quality of the recording/transfer/pressing than by your equipment. And I do love the "silence" of digital between tracks. (Also the "blackness" of OLED television.)

Christ you sound boring.

Guess you have an EV since they are objectively better than ICE?

Imagine posting on the watch forum for advice on a Patek Philippe and being told a Casio F91W for under a tenner will keep better time.

[PM3]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Dingu said:

Panamax said:

... or a decent CD player.

Any album made in the last 25 years will have been recorded digitally. They then convert it to analog to put it on the record and you have to convert it again to a different form of analog through a noisy mechanical process. Similarly every festival and significant live gig will be going through a digital sound board. The resurrection of vinyl is IMO a side effect of people having been listening to music on phones and laptops, leading them to believe "digital" doesn't sound good.

IMO once you get anywhere near high end gear of any flavour your experience is generally more limited by the quality of the recording/transfer/pressing than by your equipment. And I do love the "silence" of digital between tracks. (Also the "blackness" of OLED television.)

Christ you sound boring.

Guess you have an EV since they are objectively better than ICE?

Imagine posting on the watch forum for advice on a Patek Philippe and being told a Casio F91W for under a tenner will keep better time.

Its ok , I'm immune to "expert " advice . I spent a lifetime of work involved in electronics systems , power , analogue , digital used in hostile environment ...and more specifically in failure of these so I am up to my neck drowning in opinions . I think I am now just reacting in particular to all the digital nonsense I had to deal with due to extreme heat and duty cycling , so drifting back to what I have always liked : the pure analogue domain .

Since retiring early nearly 4 years ago I have added to my music collection a lot . I always had a CD collection ( I was an early adopter in 1st year they came out in UK so I do know CD ) I was also very early mp3 adopter when it came out. Working overseas in backward parts of the world the ability to carry large music collection to god knows where was always attractive from the get-go .
I also had a modest small collection of vinyl , but this last 3 years I have bought new and second hand in the region of at least 15K+ on records. Its not going away

So far, I have had a good tip on a cartridge to try and a couple of related opinions that I have always really knew ( the exponential money vs reward curve in analogue is very steep )

[w1bbles]

FWIW, here's my set-up:

[Magikarp]

Panamax said:

... or a decent CD player.

Any album made in the last 25 years will have been recorded digitally. They then convert it to analog to put it on the record and you have to convert it again to a different form of analog through a noisy mechanical process. Similarly every festival and significant live gig will be going through a digital sound board. The resurrection of vinyl is IMO a side effect of people having been listening to music on phones and laptops, leading them to believe "digital" doesn't sound good.

IMO once you get anywhere near high end gear of any flavour your experience is generally more limited by the quality of the recording/transfer/pressing than by your equipment. And I do love the "silence" of digital between tracks. (Also the "blackness" of OLED television.)

A good point but to me the greater crime is remastering albums that didn’t need it - for example some of Genesis’ albums have been remastered for SACD and they sound horrendous in comparison to the vinyl originals: overly bright, washy, and generally thin. My thinking is vinyl for albums recorded pre-CD, or orchestral music, and CD for everything else. I listen to vinyl more because my taste is for older music but I also suspect I prefer the sound of vinyl.

[Panamax]

PM3 said:

I have a HUGE digital collection, mainly on CD and "ripped" versions of my CDs .

OT and purely out of interest, have you found you can hear the difference between the original CDs and the ripped versions?

[Skyman]

OP says “I also had a modest small collection of vinyl , but this last 3 years I have bought new and second hand in the region of at least 15K+ on records. Its not going away”
Having made such a big commitment (rightly in my view) to vinyl, I think I would be upping the game quite considerably on the TT front, and perhaps the phono (and amplification) too - depending on what you have of course. I am a big fan of the Linn LP12 (Klimax spec, with Moon 610LP phono, D’Agostino integrated), but if that does not appeal then Vertere DG or MG series, SMEs or upper level Regas are all lovely, very competent alternatives, with a reduced risk of future upgraditis hitting!
Gratuitous system pic:

Edited by Skyman on Sunday 24th November 17:02

[Deranged Rover]

Panamax said:

... or a decent CD player.

It's a bit difficult to play your records on a CD player. Even singles won't fit into the tray.

[Panamax]

Skyman said:

I am a big fan of the Linn LP12 with Moon 610LP

Excellent, I was beginning to think I might be the only person on the planet buying Moon gear. Don't know whether it's any "better" or "worse" than anything else but I like the sound.

(FWIW I find Moon CD performance absolutely stunning - at a price.)

[Skyman]

Panamax said:

Excellent, I was beginning to think I might be the only person on the planet buying Moon gear. Don't know whether it's any "better" or "worse" than anything else but I like the sound.

(FWIW I find Moon CD performance absolutely stunning - at a price.)

Moon phono, yes great. Amps less so, and I much prefer the DAG.