Disappointing speaker demo - may just move to Sonos?
Discussion
I decided I want to treat myself to an upgrade from my entry level Mordant Short MS902s which to be fair I think hold their own for the price.
I may get branded a heathen/juvenile but I really like bass, maybe this comes from my younger days at raves where the sound system would vibrate the air in your nose. I like the physical element of it as much as the musical.
So any upgrade needs to deliver more bass than the little MS902s (shouldn't be hard) as well as an overall improvement in sound quality.
Anyway, I booked a demo at the local audio-visual shop for the Dali Oberon 3's. Apparently big sound, big woofer, detailed top end etc. I had high expectations and went in ready to buy them as I was convinced they were going to be just the ticket.
However I was really underwhelmed, I listened to a wide range of genres, including songs I know have some really nice basslines and they just didn't come through. Obviously being a demo I had them cranked as high as I would comfortably listen at home and some of the highs even felt a bit abrasive to my ears at those sound levels, even whilst the lows were not as strong as I would have liked. I did have that cool experience whenever you listen familiar music on higher quality speakers where you hear detail you hadn't before, but overall, not impressed enough to drop £500 on them.
I know really I need floorstanders, but our lounge isn't huge and as much as I like music I don't really want it dominated by two pillars.
I feel like £500 bookshelves should be able to deliver something decent?
Now i've started considering Sonos as I know they pack such a punch for the size. It would also mean I can ditch the amp/cables.
Currently split between 1 x Five or 2 x Era 100's in stereo pair. An Airbnb we stayed at had a Five and I just could not believe the sound it kicked out, even in a huge open plan living space. I suspect the Five would fulfil my bass needs better, but the lack of proper stereo separation is putting me off...
Sorry for the ramble, hopefully it's not too much of a word salad, long day at work.
I may get branded a heathen/juvenile but I really like bass, maybe this comes from my younger days at raves where the sound system would vibrate the air in your nose. I like the physical element of it as much as the musical.
So any upgrade needs to deliver more bass than the little MS902s (shouldn't be hard) as well as an overall improvement in sound quality.
Anyway, I booked a demo at the local audio-visual shop for the Dali Oberon 3's. Apparently big sound, big woofer, detailed top end etc. I had high expectations and went in ready to buy them as I was convinced they were going to be just the ticket.
However I was really underwhelmed, I listened to a wide range of genres, including songs I know have some really nice basslines and they just didn't come through. Obviously being a demo I had them cranked as high as I would comfortably listen at home and some of the highs even felt a bit abrasive to my ears at those sound levels, even whilst the lows were not as strong as I would have liked. I did have that cool experience whenever you listen familiar music on higher quality speakers where you hear detail you hadn't before, but overall, not impressed enough to drop £500 on them.
I know really I need floorstanders, but our lounge isn't huge and as much as I like music I don't really want it dominated by two pillars.
I feel like £500 bookshelves should be able to deliver something decent?
Now i've started considering Sonos as I know they pack such a punch for the size. It would also mean I can ditch the amp/cables.
Currently split between 1 x Five or 2 x Era 100's in stereo pair. An Airbnb we stayed at had a Five and I just could not believe the sound it kicked out, even in a huge open plan living space. I suspect the Five would fulfil my bass needs better, but the lack of proper stereo separation is putting me off...
Sorry for the ramble, hopefully it's not too much of a word salad, long day at work.
Tim Cognito said:
I decided I want to treat myself to an upgrade from my entry level Mordant Short MS902s which to be fair I think hold their own for the price.
I may get branded a heathen/juvenile but I really like bass, maybe this comes from my younger days at raves where the sound system would vibrate the air in your nose. I like the physical element of it as much as the musical.
So any upgrade needs to deliver more bass than the little MS902s (shouldn't be hard) as well as an overall improvement in sound quality.
Anyway, I booked a demo at the local audio-visual shop for the Dali Oberon 3's. Apparently big sound, big woofer, detailed top end etc. I had high expectations and went in ready to buy them as I was convinced they were going to be just the ticket.
However I was really underwhelmed, I listened to a wide range of genres, including songs I know have some really nice basslines and they just didn't come through. Obviously being a demo I had them cranked as high as I would comfortably listen at home and some of the highs even felt a bit abrasive to my ears at those sound levels, even whilst the lows were not as strong as I would have liked. I did have that cool experience whenever you listen familiar music on higher quality speakers where you hear detail you hadn't before, but overall, not impressed enough to drop £500 on them.
I know really I need floorstanders, but our lounge isn't huge and as much as I like music I don't really want it dominated by two pillars.
I feel like £500 bookshelves should be able to deliver something decent?
Now i've started considering Sonos as I know they pack such a punch for the size. It would also mean I can ditch the amp/cables.
Currently split between 1 x Five or 2 x Era 100's in stereo pair. An Airbnb we stayed at had a Five and I just could not believe the sound it kicked out, even in a huge open plan living space. I suspect the Five would fulfil my bass needs better, but the lack of proper stereo separation is putting me off...
Sorry for the ramble, hopefully it's not too much of a word salad, long day at work.
When you were clubbing you were listening to big sound systems, lots of really big tuned bass speakers, and lots and lots of watts. It was shifting a lot of air. A pair of speakers isn't going to do that unless they're huge, and that generally means flipping expensive, too. A pair of Tannoy Monitor Gold in Westminsters cabinets gives you two 15" drivers, each one mounted in a cabinet made like some bizarre labyrinth. They'll deliver intoxicating bass but without all the distortion and shoutyness of commercial PA rigs. The catch is they cost £55,000 a pair and you'll need to spend a good £10K+ on amplification. Oh, and they're about the size of one and a half washing machines. I may get branded a heathen/juvenile but I really like bass, maybe this comes from my younger days at raves where the sound system would vibrate the air in your nose. I like the physical element of it as much as the musical.
So any upgrade needs to deliver more bass than the little MS902s (shouldn't be hard) as well as an overall improvement in sound quality.
Anyway, I booked a demo at the local audio-visual shop for the Dali Oberon 3's. Apparently big sound, big woofer, detailed top end etc. I had high expectations and went in ready to buy them as I was convinced they were going to be just the ticket.
However I was really underwhelmed, I listened to a wide range of genres, including songs I know have some really nice basslines and they just didn't come through. Obviously being a demo I had them cranked as high as I would comfortably listen at home and some of the highs even felt a bit abrasive to my ears at those sound levels, even whilst the lows were not as strong as I would have liked. I did have that cool experience whenever you listen familiar music on higher quality speakers where you hear detail you hadn't before, but overall, not impressed enough to drop £500 on them.
I know really I need floorstanders, but our lounge isn't huge and as much as I like music I don't really want it dominated by two pillars.
I feel like £500 bookshelves should be able to deliver something decent?
Now i've started considering Sonos as I know they pack such a punch for the size. It would also mean I can ditch the amp/cables.
Currently split between 1 x Five or 2 x Era 100's in stereo pair. An Airbnb we stayed at had a Five and I just could not believe the sound it kicked out, even in a huge open plan living space. I suspect the Five would fulfil my bass needs better, but the lack of proper stereo separation is putting me off...
Sorry for the ramble, hopefully it's not too much of a word salad, long day at work.
The Dalis have a couple of 5 1/4" bass drivers. They start to roll off at 39Hz. By comparison, the Tannoys go all the way down to a point where we feel bass rather than hear it.
If you want big bass then you need big drivers. A pair of Monitor Audio Silver RX2 are large standmount speakers and they have 8" woofers. They actually shift some air, but even then they're starting to tail off before you get anywhere near 'bass you can feel' territory. They also need a lot of space around them so as not to sound boomy, and a good amp to drive them.
If standmount and floorstander speakers in your budget aren't going to give you the sort of bass depth you're looking for then we have to think laterally. Have you considered a sub? Before you dismiss the idea out of hand just read on.
1) A good sub will give you the driver size (12") that you're only going to get with very large floorstanders that cost a bomb. You've already said that you don't want to lose the room to huge towers
2) A sub comes with its own amp built in. That means it won't put a strain on your existing gear
3) The right sub will get down below 20Hz in your room. That should do wonders for your nose hair
4) With the right product, you're looking at something rather compact: 40cm x 40cm footprint, and just 46cm tall
5) You don't need any special connections on your amp for the sub to work
A BK P12-300PR would fit your needs very well. This is a 12" driver in a sealed box. This means the box is a lot smaller than a ported sub, and the bass goes deeper because it doesn't hit the brick wall of the port frequency. You can put a sealed sub against a wall or even in a corner and it will work far better - be cleaner and more linear and extended - than if you tried that with a ported sub. Sealed subs respond faster so they're a great choice for a music system. The PR bit of the model number refers to a passive radiator. If you haven't come across this before, its a speaker cone without the magnet and voice coil assembly. The air pressure in the box causes the PR to flex in and out in opposition to the main driver. This adds extra bass output without compromising the speed.
This BK sub connects in parallel to the speakers hooked up to your amp. The sub is very high impedance, so it doesn't draw any power from your amp or rob any power from the 902s. As far as your amp and speakers are concerned they don't 'see' the sub connection. The sub is sort of eavesdropping on the speaker signal. On the back of the sub there are controls to blend it with the main speakers so the transition is seamless. Once you've heard your 902s playing with a good sub you'll wonder why you didn't do this years ago.
Final benefits:
- you have a volume control on the sub, so you get to decide how much or little the sub plays. Kids in bed or neighbours in, fine, drop the sound level. House to yourself, crank it up and let her rip! You can't do that with main speakers.
- If you ever change the main speakers, you get to keep the sub, so you can focus on choosing new speakers that d sound stage and information rather than worrying about bass.
What about the Play 5?
Sonos is great in certain applications. It's brilliant for multiroom, and has great support for streaming apps. Also, I don't believe anyone has come up with a better controller interface. What I never lose sight of though is that it's a smart speaker first, and a music speaker second. That small cabinet houses a clever array of actively-driven woofers and tweeters, and they're combined with a lot of DSP to create the flavour of deep bass. But it is only the flavour.
The frequency response of the speaker is all over the place, and there's a whopping big bass hump at 55Hz to give the impression of deep bass from those three 4" mid-woofers. Speakers like these are a technical tour-de-force, but somewhere along the way they lost the passion of the music. If you want to hear wireless speakers done well, listen to the KEF LS50 Wireless. The price difference between that and a single Play 5 is huge, but they kept the heart and soul of the performance.
Tim Cognito said:
I decided I want to treat myself to an upgrade from my entry level Mordant Short MS902s which to be fair I think hold their own for the price.
I may get branded a heathen/juvenile but I really like bass, maybe this comes from my younger days at raves where the sound system would vibrate the air in your nose. I like the physical element of it as much as the musical.
So any upgrade needs to deliver more bass than the little MS902s (shouldn't be hard) as well as an overall improvement in sound quality.
Anyway, I booked a demo at the local audio-visual shop for the Dali Oberon 3's. Apparently big sound, big woofer, detailed top end etc. I had high expectations and went in ready to buy them as I was convinced they were going to be just the ticket.
However I was really underwhelmed, I listened to a wide range of genres, including songs I know have some really nice basslines and they just didn't come through. Obviously being a demo I had them cranked as high as I would comfortably listen at home and some of the highs even felt a bit abrasive to my ears at those sound levels, even whilst the lows were not as strong as I would have liked. I did have that cool experience whenever you listen familiar music on higher quality speakers where you hear detail you hadn't before, but overall, not impressed enough to drop £500 on them.
I know really I need floorstanders, but our lounge isn't huge and as much as I like music I don't really want it dominated by two pillars.
I feel like £500 bookshelves should be able to deliver something decent?
Now i've started considering Sonos as I know they pack such a punch for the size. It would also mean I can ditch the amp/cables.
Currently split between 1 x Five or 2 x Era 100's in stereo pair. An Airbnb we stayed at had a Five and I just could not believe the sound it kicked out, even in a huge open plan living space. I suspect the Five would fulfil my bass needs better, but the lack of proper stereo separation is putting me off...
Sorry for the ramble, hopefully it's not too much of a word salad, long day at work.
I had this same experience some years ago at Richer Sounds. I was listening to some MA BX6's, which we all know are excellent speakers and bassy.I may get branded a heathen/juvenile but I really like bass, maybe this comes from my younger days at raves where the sound system would vibrate the air in your nose. I like the physical element of it as much as the musical.
So any upgrade needs to deliver more bass than the little MS902s (shouldn't be hard) as well as an overall improvement in sound quality.
Anyway, I booked a demo at the local audio-visual shop for the Dali Oberon 3's. Apparently big sound, big woofer, detailed top end etc. I had high expectations and went in ready to buy them as I was convinced they were going to be just the ticket.
However I was really underwhelmed, I listened to a wide range of genres, including songs I know have some really nice basslines and they just didn't come through. Obviously being a demo I had them cranked as high as I would comfortably listen at home and some of the highs even felt a bit abrasive to my ears at those sound levels, even whilst the lows were not as strong as I would have liked. I did have that cool experience whenever you listen familiar music on higher quality speakers where you hear detail you hadn't before, but overall, not impressed enough to drop £500 on them.
I know really I need floorstanders, but our lounge isn't huge and as much as I like music I don't really want it dominated by two pillars.
I feel like £500 bookshelves should be able to deliver something decent?
Now i've started considering Sonos as I know they pack such a punch for the size. It would also mean I can ditch the amp/cables.
Currently split between 1 x Five or 2 x Era 100's in stereo pair. An Airbnb we stayed at had a Five and I just could not believe the sound it kicked out, even in a huge open plan living space. I suspect the Five would fulfil my bass needs better, but the lack of proper stereo separation is putting me off...
Sorry for the ramble, hopefully it's not too much of a word salad, long day at work.
The sound was just incredibly flat, it's the best word to describe it.
But, after years of mulling, I put it down to the amplification/EQ setup. I now own MA BX2s and had them for about 8 years, and they are absolutely capable of bass as long as the amp and EQ is set up properly.
I have a pair of new Wharfedale Evo 4.4s sitting in the lounge unused. Bought them to replace my broken ProAC studios. They pack a mighty punch but lacked the delicate , detailed sound of the ProACs so got them repaired. I learned the best combination is smaller speakers with 6” bass drivers paired with a big subwoofer.
BK subs are great for music and great value.
I’ve have one of these: http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF...
BK subs are great for music and great value.
I’ve have one of these: http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF...
normalbloke said:
I have 2x Play 5s and a Sonos sub in the lounge. It will do what you require.
I was going to say something similar.I have a plethora of Sonos 1 throughout the house, adding a Sonos sub mini transformed the pair in our drawing room. If you go down the Sonos route factor in a sub or sub mini.
TEKNOPUG said:
What is the rest of your system? A powered sub is the obvious solution but if you are able to introduce a high pass filter also, that will really help your current MS speakers.
Just a modest Cambridge Audio AM10 amp, I mainly listen to music via *audiophile shudders* bluetooth through an Arcam Miniblink receiver and I also have a technics 1200 mk2.I have had a powered sub in the past and it was a good addition although I remember quite often playing around with the crossover and volume trying to get it sounding right at different listening volumes. My amp doesn't have a sub out but not sure how much of an issue that would be with a powered sub?
Also a wired sub would be awkward as we have just redecorated the lounge with new carpets down and I am loath to start messing around with stuff again.
I had considered the Sonos sub mini as a later addition to 2 x Era 100's. Price wise you are getting towards 2 x Fives, but the general consensus online seems to be that the Eras+sub would provide a better listening experience at all volumes? One criticism of the Five seemed to be that it doesn't "open up" very well at low volumes?
2 Fives plus a sub is mega!
Crap in crap out applies with audio.
The other thing that doesn't change is low frequency stuff means big as you have to move a lot of air.
I suspect a sub is probably the easiest way to improve the low frequency performance.
Hope you live in a detached house as your neighbours are unlikely to appreciate it.
I have a pair of Focal 936's, yup they are big but no need for a sub, I use the Focal 906 as surround speakers and have very little bass compared to the 936's.
With the speakers you auditioned, what amp was driving them? It could be the amp wasn't the correct one i.e. not enough output current, my Focal 936's are challenging to an amp so a Hegel h190 fixed that problem as 2ohm capable.
The other thing that doesn't change is low frequency stuff means big as you have to move a lot of air.
I suspect a sub is probably the easiest way to improve the low frequency performance.
Hope you live in a detached house as your neighbours are unlikely to appreciate it.
I have a pair of Focal 936's, yup they are big but no need for a sub, I use the Focal 906 as surround speakers and have very little bass compared to the 936's.
With the speakers you auditioned, what amp was driving them? It could be the amp wasn't the correct one i.e. not enough output current, my Focal 936's are challenging to an amp so a Hegel h190 fixed that problem as 2ohm capable.
Edited by FMOB on Saturday 16th March 11:45
wormus said:
I have a pair of new Wharfedale Evo 4.4s sitting in the lounge unused. Bought them to replace my broken ProAC studios. They pack a mighty punch but lacked the delicate , detailed sound of the ProACs so got them repaired. I learned the best combination is smaller speakers with 6” bass drivers paired with a big subwoofer.
BK subs are great for music and great value.
I’ve have one of these: http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF...
I'd second this.BK subs are great for music and great value.
I’ve have one of these: http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF...
I have a simple kitchen system. BlueSound Power Node > Monitor Audio Bronze 50 and BK XLS300DF Sub.
You can connect the sub to your existing amp using a high level cable, BK sell them for £20. You won't get the benefit of an adjustable crossover from your existing amp, but the sub has physical controls so you could work around that. (£360 all in). They are also pretty small, and attractively finished, so about as acceptable as any sound equipment get for others in your house.
BK have an ebay shop where they sell B-grade products. I bought one, on very close inspection I've no idea where the flaw in the finish is?
Without a complete, budget busting, system change this is likely to be the best bang for your buck and give you some much needed bass.
BK Ebay outlet https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/116068503738?itmmeta=01...
It's difficult to get small drivers to hit hard on low frequencies, there's always a compromise. Look at speakers with biggers drivers. 6.5" should be the minimum. See if you can find something with 8" drivers. But with 8" drivers you'll likely need to go 3-way to cover the gap in frequencies between the 1" tweeter and 8" driver.
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