What is the system I want called?
Discussion
Hi All
I will admit its been a long time since i've been in proper A/V stuff, but i've bought my own house now and i'm setting it out how i want it.
I want a system for the open plan kitchen, but i can't figure out what it is, all manufacturers seem to sell stuff that crosses over. Is it a micro system, midi system, receiver, something else, I'm not sure.
Basically i want a system to-
4 or 6 very small wall/corner mounted high quality sound full range speakers.
A small music source unit that can:
Internally drive the speakers
Stream Bluetooth to it from my phone
Has an inbuilt internet radio
Potentially can be connected to the TV via HDMI/Optical but not essential
What am i looking for and any recommendations?
My go-to from back in the day would be Mission speakers, or maybe something from JBL. What's the latest for decent cost/sound compromise.
Thanks in advance
I will admit its been a long time since i've been in proper A/V stuff, but i've bought my own house now and i'm setting it out how i want it.
I want a system for the open plan kitchen, but i can't figure out what it is, all manufacturers seem to sell stuff that crosses over. Is it a micro system, midi system, receiver, something else, I'm not sure.
Basically i want a system to-
4 or 6 very small wall/corner mounted high quality sound full range speakers.
A small music source unit that can:
Internally drive the speakers
Stream Bluetooth to it from my phone
Has an inbuilt internet radio
Potentially can be connected to the TV via HDMI/Optical but not essential
What am i looking for and any recommendations?
My go-to from back in the day would be Mission speakers, or maybe something from JBL. What's the latest for decent cost/sound compromise.
Thanks in advance
Edited by StreetDragster on Sunday 28th January 17:22
Mr Pointy said:
What do you want to send to each of the 6 speakers? 3x left & 3x right? If you use it for the TV as well do you want 5.1/7.1 surround sound?
Its mainly for background music in the room, the only reason i can think of linking it to the tv, is if you have something like a YouTube playlist/video on of music to play around the room when entertaining. Granted though, that could just be pulled up on the phone and sent to the system if it can't be connected to the tv.For surround sound, the tv already has a setup for that.
Sonos?
I made the switch to active speakers (KEF) some while ago - there are many audio benefits along with each speaker being an independent streamer (radio, Spotify, Qobuz etc). But KEF would not be suitable (I don't think) for a six speaker kitchen set up.
But Sonos might. I think it would do what you want.
You could also consider Sonos amps (hidden somewhere) driving speakers in the ceiling.
I use Sonos in parts of my house and KEF for my main system.
I made the switch to active speakers (KEF) some while ago - there are many audio benefits along with each speaker being an independent streamer (radio, Spotify, Qobuz etc). But KEF would not be suitable (I don't think) for a six speaker kitchen set up.
But Sonos might. I think it would do what you want.
You could also consider Sonos amps (hidden somewhere) driving speakers in the ceiling.
I use Sonos in parts of my house and KEF for my main system.
Okay, so small speakers mounted up high - 4 or 6 of them - and you want them to play full range. Yeah, sorry but that’s not going to happen. Small speakers don’t do the midrange and bass of your old Missions or JBLs. It’s basic physics and a lack of driver size. There are some acoustic tricks though to create a ‘flavour’ of lower frequencies using psycho-acoustics and bass porting, so there are still some solutions that could work acceptably well.
If money were no object, and from how you've described it, what you want is a multiroom system. Hang on before you reject the idea because you might say it's not multiple rooms. Here's why it would work best.
First, acoustics. Corners are really difficult places for most speakers. Anything that isn't treble gets boosted by something called boundary effect, so you get a woolly chesty colouration of the sound. There are issues for treble too. The side walls and ceiling reflect the tweeter sounds resulting in virtual tweeters, and all playing slightly out of time with each other. It jumbles up the sound.
Some of these issues can be helped with Room EQ. That's where some software measures the in-room response and then applies digital sound processing (DSP) to tame some of the worst effects. Sonos does exactly this.
Next, speaker combinations: Some will suggest using an AV receiver. Yes. You can do that. These normally provide surround sound and run a centre speaker, front stereo pair, and then one or two pairs of surround speakers. However, the setup doesn’t need to have a centre speaker. As long as there’s a front stereo pair then the rest of the speakers are optional. It’s perfectly possible then to have a 7.1 AV receiver run three pairs of speakers.
To get sound from all of them equally means running on all-channel music mode. That will work, and you can set up the channel balance to make it sound even for where you stand or sit most often.
The entry-level AV receiver with 7.1 speaker ability, and Bluetooth, and internet radio is the Denon AVR-S760 at £499. It has Bluetooth and internet radio too. There’s even a form of room EQ called Audyssey.
Now let’s get serious. The unit is large. It’s substantially bigger than most stereo amps you might have used. Think more in terms of cassette deck size plus a bit. It runs hot too. You’re not going to be able to hide this in a cupboard somewhere without doing some major work on forced ventilation. That’s an extra building cost. The Room EQ is designed primarily for movies rather than all channel music use.
Control for the receiver is mostly based around seeing the onscreen menus. This applies to day-to-day use as well as for set-up. If you’re planning on connecting to the TV then maybe that’s okay, but ask yourself if you really want to start faffing around putting the telly on just to change internet radio station? “Ah but…” some will interject “...there’s an app for that.” Yes, there is, and it sucks. Go to Google Play store and read the reviews of ‘Denon AVR App’.
You could just rely on the remote control. It provides basic functions, but there aren’t dedicated buttons to take you to the 'all-channel' music mode or help you change the radio tuning without seeing a screen.
Two final things here. You might learn your way through navigating all these hurdles, but what about anyone else in the house? I’ve seen this happen so many times. The gear becomes “his” music system because no one else can- or wants to- operate it, so it doesn’t get the use that you hope for.
Second, how many features on the AV receiver are not being used? You’ll have a tonne of HDMI inputs, and Dolby Atmos processing, and 8K video format compatibility, and… and… and.. Most of it will be redundant because all you want is a stereo signal split across 6 speakers. You’ll have paid for an AV receiver where you use about 10% of its capability.
This brings us to money, so let’s look at what a system might cost.
The 760 receiver is discounted to £499. You want some speakers that make a stab at bass, so tiny little cubes are out unless you budget to add a subwoofer. This means going up in size to something about ¾ the size of a rugby ball. The B&W M-1 speakers at £149 each are a good fit, and they’re available in white as well as black. The stand is integrated and can be swivelled to make it a wall or ceiling mount.
1x AV receiver + 6x speakers = £1393
You’ll need some speaker wire too Kabledirekt stuff from Germany is all copper, so better that the cheaper copper coated alloy (CCA) stuff. Ebay is pricey (£1.80/m). Amazon is cheaper at 70p/m if you buy in 50m rolls.
Now let's look at Sonos. The Play One speakers are an almost perfect fit for your application.
They’re smaller than the B&Ws (160mm tall versus 250mm). All of the amplification is built-in. They connect to your home Wi-Fi to access internet radio and have excellent broad support for a multitude of free- and premium- streaming service. There is no need for any TV screens. Everything is done from a very intuitive app. Any music on your phone can be played via the app to the speakers, and no drop in quality by going via Bluetooth.
The app also offers excellent control of the speakers. They can be run as 6 individuals, or paired up. It’s easy to group all together or select just certain ones to play. The sound balance can be altered easily too, so you can have the speakers further away playing louder when you’re cooking, but then change the bias to suit when you’re sitting dining.
There’s only one catch. The Play One speakers are going out of stock so you need to get your skates on. You can still pick them up for around £170~£180 each new, but stock is selling out fast and prices are going up. The replacement is the Sonos Era 100 at £249 a piece.
6x Sonos Play One speakers - £1080
6x wall brackets (3 x pairs) - £120
Total £1200
Both the above price might be a lot more than you were expecting. Some of that is because tech has moved a long way from the days of midi systems and passive speakers. A midi system wouldn't have done what you want anyway, so prices aren't comparable. There are though alternative solutions, but nothing so elegant.
For example, a Wiim Amp (Google it) is a streaming multiroom amplifier similar to the Sonos Amp but at roughly half the price. It's £299. There are some key differences. It's not as powerful (60W vs 125W/ch) and it doesn't include the HDMI ARC feature, but if what you want is just music then it's a really excellent little device. The app control and support for a variety of streaming apps is good. There's Bluetooth too.
What a Wiim or a Sonos Amp won't do is run 6 speakers.
You can get away with four is the parallel impedance doesn't drop below 4 Ohms. That's fine for two pairs of 8 Ohm speakers wired in parallel, but 3 pairs at 8 ohms creates a 2.6 Ohm load at best. The other thing is that 6 Ohms is now very common. That would make a 2 Ohm load. Domestic audio gear isn't designed to cope with that. Amps blow up.
To run 3x pairs of 6 or 8 Ohm speakers safely on an amp designed for a 4~8 Ohm load requires an impedance matching transformer. A Russound SS-6.2 will do the trick. It is £250. That takes care of the source and splitting the signal. Now let's look at speakers.
Monitor Audio's MASS speaker kit is a sub/sat system (small cubes for treble and some midrange, then a subwoofer bass box for the rest of the mids and bass). The satellites are small; roughly the height of a tin of baked beans, and available in white as well as black. The matching sub is roughly a 14" cube. It's available in a 7.1 system for £499 discounted. Total is around £1050 + speaker cable (50m at £50) and wall brackets (6 at £20 ech = £120)
When you add it all up, the total comes to £1220, and it works out that the Sonos is marginally cheaper. It also doesn't involve losing control of the individual speaker volumes or foregoing room EQ, and there's no concern over spreading the amp power too thinly.
If money were no object, and from how you've described it, what you want is a multiroom system. Hang on before you reject the idea because you might say it's not multiple rooms. Here's why it would work best.
First, acoustics. Corners are really difficult places for most speakers. Anything that isn't treble gets boosted by something called boundary effect, so you get a woolly chesty colouration of the sound. There are issues for treble too. The side walls and ceiling reflect the tweeter sounds resulting in virtual tweeters, and all playing slightly out of time with each other. It jumbles up the sound.
Some of these issues can be helped with Room EQ. That's where some software measures the in-room response and then applies digital sound processing (DSP) to tame some of the worst effects. Sonos does exactly this.
Next, speaker combinations: Some will suggest using an AV receiver. Yes. You can do that. These normally provide surround sound and run a centre speaker, front stereo pair, and then one or two pairs of surround speakers. However, the setup doesn’t need to have a centre speaker. As long as there’s a front stereo pair then the rest of the speakers are optional. It’s perfectly possible then to have a 7.1 AV receiver run three pairs of speakers.
To get sound from all of them equally means running on all-channel music mode. That will work, and you can set up the channel balance to make it sound even for where you stand or sit most often.
The entry-level AV receiver with 7.1 speaker ability, and Bluetooth, and internet radio is the Denon AVR-S760 at £499. It has Bluetooth and internet radio too. There’s even a form of room EQ called Audyssey.
Now let’s get serious. The unit is large. It’s substantially bigger than most stereo amps you might have used. Think more in terms of cassette deck size plus a bit. It runs hot too. You’re not going to be able to hide this in a cupboard somewhere without doing some major work on forced ventilation. That’s an extra building cost. The Room EQ is designed primarily for movies rather than all channel music use.
Control for the receiver is mostly based around seeing the onscreen menus. This applies to day-to-day use as well as for set-up. If you’re planning on connecting to the TV then maybe that’s okay, but ask yourself if you really want to start faffing around putting the telly on just to change internet radio station? “Ah but…” some will interject “...there’s an app for that.” Yes, there is, and it sucks. Go to Google Play store and read the reviews of ‘Denon AVR App’.
You could just rely on the remote control. It provides basic functions, but there aren’t dedicated buttons to take you to the 'all-channel' music mode or help you change the radio tuning without seeing a screen.
Two final things here. You might learn your way through navigating all these hurdles, but what about anyone else in the house? I’ve seen this happen so many times. The gear becomes “his” music system because no one else can- or wants to- operate it, so it doesn’t get the use that you hope for.
Second, how many features on the AV receiver are not being used? You’ll have a tonne of HDMI inputs, and Dolby Atmos processing, and 8K video format compatibility, and… and… and.. Most of it will be redundant because all you want is a stereo signal split across 6 speakers. You’ll have paid for an AV receiver where you use about 10% of its capability.
This brings us to money, so let’s look at what a system might cost.
The 760 receiver is discounted to £499. You want some speakers that make a stab at bass, so tiny little cubes are out unless you budget to add a subwoofer. This means going up in size to something about ¾ the size of a rugby ball. The B&W M-1 speakers at £149 each are a good fit, and they’re available in white as well as black. The stand is integrated and can be swivelled to make it a wall or ceiling mount.
1x AV receiver + 6x speakers = £1393
You’ll need some speaker wire too Kabledirekt stuff from Germany is all copper, so better that the cheaper copper coated alloy (CCA) stuff. Ebay is pricey (£1.80/m). Amazon is cheaper at 70p/m if you buy in 50m rolls.
Now let's look at Sonos. The Play One speakers are an almost perfect fit for your application.
They’re smaller than the B&Ws (160mm tall versus 250mm). All of the amplification is built-in. They connect to your home Wi-Fi to access internet radio and have excellent broad support for a multitude of free- and premium- streaming service. There is no need for any TV screens. Everything is done from a very intuitive app. Any music on your phone can be played via the app to the speakers, and no drop in quality by going via Bluetooth.
The app also offers excellent control of the speakers. They can be run as 6 individuals, or paired up. It’s easy to group all together or select just certain ones to play. The sound balance can be altered easily too, so you can have the speakers further away playing louder when you’re cooking, but then change the bias to suit when you’re sitting dining.
There’s only one catch. The Play One speakers are going out of stock so you need to get your skates on. You can still pick them up for around £170~£180 each new, but stock is selling out fast and prices are going up. The replacement is the Sonos Era 100 at £249 a piece.
6x Sonos Play One speakers - £1080
6x wall brackets (3 x pairs) - £120
Total £1200
Both the above price might be a lot more than you were expecting. Some of that is because tech has moved a long way from the days of midi systems and passive speakers. A midi system wouldn't have done what you want anyway, so prices aren't comparable. There are though alternative solutions, but nothing so elegant.
For example, a Wiim Amp (Google it) is a streaming multiroom amplifier similar to the Sonos Amp but at roughly half the price. It's £299. There are some key differences. It's not as powerful (60W vs 125W/ch) and it doesn't include the HDMI ARC feature, but if what you want is just music then it's a really excellent little device. The app control and support for a variety of streaming apps is good. There's Bluetooth too.
What a Wiim or a Sonos Amp won't do is run 6 speakers.
You can get away with four is the parallel impedance doesn't drop below 4 Ohms. That's fine for two pairs of 8 Ohm speakers wired in parallel, but 3 pairs at 8 ohms creates a 2.6 Ohm load at best. The other thing is that 6 Ohms is now very common. That would make a 2 Ohm load. Domestic audio gear isn't designed to cope with that. Amps blow up.
To run 3x pairs of 6 or 8 Ohm speakers safely on an amp designed for a 4~8 Ohm load requires an impedance matching transformer. A Russound SS-6.2 will do the trick. It is £250. That takes care of the source and splitting the signal. Now let's look at speakers.
Monitor Audio's MASS speaker kit is a sub/sat system (small cubes for treble and some midrange, then a subwoofer bass box for the rest of the mids and bass). The satellites are small; roughly the height of a tin of baked beans, and available in white as well as black. The matching sub is roughly a 14" cube. It's available in a 7.1 system for £499 discounted. Total is around £1050 + speaker cable (50m at £50) and wall brackets (6 at £20 ech = £120)
When you add it all up, the total comes to £1220, and it works out that the Sonos is marginally cheaper. It also doesn't involve losing control of the individual speaker volumes or foregoing room EQ, and there's no concern over spreading the amp power too thinly.
Edited by Lucid_AV on Tuesday 30th January 00:24
It sounds like you are describing two different requirements.
If you want something for music throughout the house then a bunch of AudioPro multi room speakers will do the job nicely (the C10 sound great) and can be played independently or linked.
If you want a home cinema system then get a 5.1 amp and speakers or at least a soundbar with subwoofer.
If you want something for music throughout the house then a bunch of AudioPro multi room speakers will do the job nicely (the C10 sound great) and can be played independently or linked.
If you want a home cinema system then get a 5.1 amp and speakers or at least a soundbar with subwoofer.
For what you want I'd just use a amp or AV receiver in 2.1 mode, stick some decent speakers on (I use Monitor audio bookshelves), buy a ChromeCast Audio and control it all from your phone.
I don't get why you want lots of satellite speakers for music; they won't sound good. I have a system like that as well but it's strictly for the TV. I'd never play music through it as it's not very good at that.
I don't get why you want lots of satellite speakers for music; they won't sound good. I have a system like that as well but it's strictly for the TV. I'd never play music through it as it's not very good at that.
Lucid_AV said:
stuff
Thanks for that very helpful and detailed post! 4 speakers would probably be fine tbh, i didn't realise how much more difficult just adding two more would be.
Especially if they are decent sounding ones, they could also be wall mounted as apposed to corner mounted fairly easily.
Tv connection is not essential, so sonos does appear to be the answer. Thanks everyone, I'll look into it
Edited by StreetDragster on Tuesday 30th January 10:13
Alex Z said:
It sounds like you are describing two different requirements.
If you want something for music throughout the house then a bunch of AudioPro multi room speakers will do the job nicely (the C10 sound great) and can be played independently or linked.
If you want a home cinema system then get a 5.1 amp and speakers or at least a soundbar with subwoofer.
Tv already has its own cinema system as described above. The connection to the tv was only to play youtube music playlists or similar and can be easily removedIf you want something for music throughout the house then a bunch of AudioPro multi room speakers will do the job nicely (the C10 sound great) and can be played independently or linked.
If you want a home cinema system then get a 5.1 amp and speakers or at least a soundbar with subwoofer.
AC43 said:
For what you want I'd just use a amp or AV receiver in 2.1 mode, stick some decent speakers on (I use Monitor audio bookshelves), buy a ChromeCast Audio and control it all from your phone.
I don't get why you want lots of satellite speakers for music; they won't sound good. I have a system like that as well but it's strictly for the TV. I'd never play music through it as it's not very good at that.
It's a big room, two speakers would be blairing at one end, it's rather just have balanced volume, hence 4 speakersI don't get why you want lots of satellite speakers for music; they won't sound good. I have a system like that as well but it's strictly for the TV. I'd never play music through it as it's not very good at that.
vladcjelli said:
Thanks, I'll have a lookStreetDragster said:
AC43 said:
For what you want I'd just use a amp or AV receiver in 2.1 mode, stick some decent speakers on (I use Monitor audio bookshelves), buy a ChromeCast Audio and control it all from your phone.
I don't get why you want lots of satellite speakers for music; they won't sound good. I have a system like that as well but it's strictly for the TV. I'd never play music through it as it's not very good at that.
It's a big room, two speakers would be blairing at one end, it's rather just have balanced volume, hence 4 speakersI don't get why you want lots of satellite speakers for music; they won't sound good. I have a system like that as well but it's strictly for the TV. I'd never play music through it as it's not very good at that.
And dodge all the signal processing intended for tv and film.
Marantz make a mini system (CR-612) that has amplification for 2 pairs of speakers, also a Sub woofer output if you feel the need.
It has CD, FM/DAB built in, can stream internet radio stations, connect via Bluetooth, has an optical input that they specifically say is for TV connection.
Richer Sounds sell them (no affiliation except being a happy customer).
Might be worth a look.
https://www.manuals.co.uk/marantz/melody-x-m-cr612...
It has CD, FM/DAB built in, can stream internet radio stations, connect via Bluetooth, has an optical input that they specifically say is for TV connection.
Richer Sounds sell them (no affiliation except being a happy customer).
Might be worth a look.
https://www.manuals.co.uk/marantz/melody-x-m-cr612...
Techno9000 said:
Marantz make a mini system (CR-612) that has amplification for 2 pairs of speakers, also a Sub woofer output if you feel the need.
It has CD, FM/DAB built in, can stream internet radio stations, connect via Bluetooth, has an optical input that they specifically say is for TV connection.
Richer Sounds sell them (no affiliation except being a happy customer).
Might be worth a look.
https://www.manuals.co.uk/marantz/melody-x-m-cr612...
Yeah and Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo etc all do amps/receivers than can handle multi room (so 4 x speakers) and subs.It has CD, FM/DAB built in, can stream internet radio stations, connect via Bluetooth, has an optical input that they specifically say is for TV connection.
Richer Sounds sell them (no affiliation except being a happy customer).
Might be worth a look.
https://www.manuals.co.uk/marantz/melody-x-m-cr612...
Lucid_AV said:
For example, a Wiim Amp (Google it) is a streaming multiroom amplifier similar to the Sonos Amp but at roughly half the price. It's £299. There are some key differences. It's not as powerful (60W vs 125W/ch) and it doesn't include the HDMI ARC feature , but if what you want is just music then it's a really excellent little device. The app control and support for a variety of streaming apps is good. There's Bluetooth too.
What a Wiim or a Sonos Amp won't do is run 6 speakers.
Not to take anything away from what Lucid said, but just for information: The Wiim amp DOES have HDMI/ARC in case it suits anyone else that might be reading (and for Lucid AV's information). It's only because I've been considering one for a second room system. It also has a subwoofer output and suitable crossover settings like an AVR, but just for 2.1 operation. Has some limited eq controls too.What a Wiim or a Sonos Amp won't do is run 6 speakers.
'Slightly sluggish' HDMI response, but it does have it:
https://www.avforums.com/reviews/wiim-amp-integrat...
I totally agree with the complication of using a cobbled together set up: Both my main and second room systems can be operated just using the TV remote. Even my late Mother in law could use it when she came round. Previous setups I would come home to find my wife watching TV with an annoying echo because she had the TV speakers and AVR on, or that the AVR was on, but the wrong input selected so she'd turn the TV speakers up.
Edited by OldSkoolRS on Wednesday 31st January 15:39
AC43 said:
Techno9000 said:
Marantz make a mini system (CR-612) that has amplification for 2 pairs of speakers, also a Sub woofer output if you feel the need.
It has CD, FM/DAB built in, can stream internet radio stations, connect via Bluetooth, has an optical input that they specifically say is for TV connection.
Richer Sounds sell them (no affiliation except being a happy customer).
Might be worth a look.
https://www.manuals.co.uk/marantz/melody-x-m-cr612...
Yeah and Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo etc all do amps/receivers than can handle multi room (so 4 x speakers) and subs.It has CD, FM/DAB built in, can stream internet radio stations, connect via Bluetooth, has an optical input that they specifically say is for TV connection.
Richer Sounds sell them (no affiliation except being a happy customer).
Might be worth a look.
https://www.manuals.co.uk/marantz/melody-x-m-cr612...
mikef said:
AC43 said:
Techno9000 said:
Marantz make a mini system (CR-612) that has amplification for 2 pairs of speakers, also a Sub woofer output if you feel the need.
It has CD, FM/DAB built in, can stream internet radio stations, connect via Bluetooth, has an optical input that they specifically say is for TV connection.
Richer Sounds sell them (no affiliation except being a happy customer).
Might be worth a look.
https://www.manuals.co.uk/marantz/melody-x-m-cr612...
Yeah and Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo etc all do amps/receivers than can handle multi room (so 4 x speakers) and subs.It has CD, FM/DAB built in, can stream internet radio stations, connect via Bluetooth, has an optical input that they specifically say is for TV connection.
Richer Sounds sell them (no affiliation except being a happy customer).
Might be worth a look.
https://www.manuals.co.uk/marantz/melody-x-m-cr612...
Good skills having an outdoor sub; I've only managed to have them indoors.....so far anyway
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