KEF / New System thoughts
Discussion
In terms of amps, I have an Audiolab 6000A, which I find very good.
Coupled with a Rega P3, KEF R100 speakers and a REL T5 sub, it works very well.
P.S. for gods sake don’t fall into the speaker wire/interconnect trap. £5/m with banana plugs will be fine.
Coupled with a Rega P3, KEF R100 speakers and a REL T5 sub, it works very well.
P.S. for gods sake don’t fall into the speaker wire/interconnect trap. £5/m with banana plugs will be fine.
Edited by ChevronB19 on Wednesday 7th December 12:11
ChevronB19 said:
for gods sake don’t fall into the speaker wire/interconnect trap. £5/m with banana plugs will be fine.
If you do a comparison test with/without decent cables like the Chord silver range you WILL hear a difference, particularly in enhanced "clarity" which can verge into "brightness". Whether or not the result is BETTER will depend on the overall balance of your system.If you're on a budget there's a lot to be said for using copper mains cable of decent thickness. And try to keep the cables sensibly short. Some say left and right should both be exactly the same length but I've never heard a difference.
You said above…..”As I know about the topic and know what I want”
With all due respect, this is above is a big part of the problem, as almost everything else you’ve then type, points to the EXACT opposite!
There are SO many misconceptions, mistakes, prejudices and confusions that in my experience, it would take an hour or more together to help, dispel, correct and explain every point above.
Sorry for the multiple posts, as I’m getting 404 if in one go!
With all due respect, this is above is a big part of the problem, as almost everything else you’ve then type, points to the EXACT opposite!
There are SO many misconceptions, mistakes, prejudices and confusions that in my experience, it would take an hour or more together to help, dispel, correct and explain every point above.
Edited by Red 5 on Wednesday 7th December 14:29
Sorry for the multiple posts, as I’m getting 404 if in one go!
Edited by Red 5 on Wednesday 7th December 14:33
1. You have heard and like the LS50 and their performance is well recognised, but you want prodigious bass AND crisp open clarity at the mid/top, so….
2. Forget Bluetooth, so you can get a decent sound and functionality. As a pre-amp, I would suggest you use a Bluesound Node. This will give you quality digital music and remove your portable device from the chain, which is vital!
This has a crossover you can use, with a sub pre-out. I would set this at 80hz and the rest of the audio spectrum would run to you sub. This is fully adjustable though.
Doing this will effectively offer your LS50 more than double the power output, as the amps entire output will be concentrated above the point at which you select to set the cross-over.
The LS50 can then be used for EXACTLY what they excel at, with better sound than you’ve yet experienced from them.
You’ll also have ARC to use, if you can position your speakers either side of your TV.
You can add turntable to this and it has internet radio as it’s a steamer.
3. Add a power amp. No real need for loads of redundant inputs and analog dials is there?
A NAD C268 ClassD amp will off you what you need and more. It can trigger on from the Node and will have the power you need. Clean and fast.
4. Now add a better sub than you’ve yet listened to. The REL demo you had is confusing. One/both of you made a mistake along the way and the models and prices are wrong.
That aside, if it was a T7i you tried, I would expect you to be wanting more.
I would suggest you find a clearance last model REL HT1508.
Only a bigger driver / amp / box will give you what you want imo.
Think ball park £1200 to hear the speed and gut punch that these can deliver.
Ignore the HT monicker, as you will be using it it in essentially the same way.
For you to run full range speakers AND add a filtered off sub, to reach the levels you want, will stretch your budget in the wrong areas and cost you lots more overall.
I’m really trying to help here and not cause an upset and hope you understand my point.
Happy to discuss further…….
2. Forget Bluetooth, so you can get a decent sound and functionality. As a pre-amp, I would suggest you use a Bluesound Node. This will give you quality digital music and remove your portable device from the chain, which is vital!
This has a crossover you can use, with a sub pre-out. I would set this at 80hz and the rest of the audio spectrum would run to you sub. This is fully adjustable though.
Doing this will effectively offer your LS50 more than double the power output, as the amps entire output will be concentrated above the point at which you select to set the cross-over.
The LS50 can then be used for EXACTLY what they excel at, with better sound than you’ve yet experienced from them.
You’ll also have ARC to use, if you can position your speakers either side of your TV.
You can add turntable to this and it has internet radio as it’s a steamer.
3. Add a power amp. No real need for loads of redundant inputs and analog dials is there?
A NAD C268 ClassD amp will off you what you need and more. It can trigger on from the Node and will have the power you need. Clean and fast.
4. Now add a better sub than you’ve yet listened to. The REL demo you had is confusing. One/both of you made a mistake along the way and the models and prices are wrong.
That aside, if it was a T7i you tried, I would expect you to be wanting more.
I would suggest you find a clearance last model REL HT1508.
Only a bigger driver / amp / box will give you what you want imo.
Think ball park £1200 to hear the speed and gut punch that these can deliver.
Ignore the HT monicker, as you will be using it it in essentially the same way.
For you to run full range speakers AND add a filtered off sub, to reach the levels you want, will stretch your budget in the wrong areas and cost you lots more overall.
I’m really trying to help here and not cause an upset and hope you understand my point.
Happy to discuss further…….
I don’t have much space and had about 1300 quid to spend on a setup a couple of years ago.
Having listened to a few speaker / amp combos I went for a pair of Kef LSX which was not only better for the space I had but I though sounded better than the separates at that price point.
Have you looked at the bigger brother of the LSX the LS50 II around 2.5k in RS.
Having listened to a few speaker / amp combos I went for a pair of Kef LSX which was not only better for the space I had but I though sounded better than the separates at that price point.
Have you looked at the bigger brother of the LSX the LS50 II around 2.5k in RS.
Wow. Where to start?
First off, if you're going to stores where they're only interested in "pushing you into buying what they want to clear from their stock" then you're at the wrong type of store. Then again, if you've set your heart on some specific product then that suggests you're maybe not so open to listening to other gear and giving it a fair shout, so do you really want to waste time walking into a proper specialist store?
RELs subs are decent, but the T7 is an 8" sub and by the sound of it you need to be looking at 12" to get you the sort of air mass moving that you're looking for. Personally I'd go for a sealed sub as under a grand they're more linear and dig deeper. They're also easier to place in a room, but they don't have the sheer volume of output that a ported sub will have. Ported goes louder, but at the expense of bass depth. The driver works down to the port frequency but then the port resonance takes over and the frequencies pretty much hit a brick wall whereas a sealed sub keeps on diving down.
Have a look at BK subs. They were the subcontracted manufacturer for REL and MJ Acoustics. Maybe others too. BK is now a brand in its own right and very well respected. The company doesn't sell through retailers. It sells direct. There's a lot of love for the brand within the stereo and AV community. You get one of their subs on approval.
Personally I'd look at the the XXLS400, a sealed sub with a 12" long throw driver and a 400W continuous output amplifier. Don't let the low price put you off. This is a serious bit of kit for the bargain price of £470. If you want to go ported then the Monolith or Monolith-Plus at around £500 and £600 respectfully are excellent. [Side note - ported subs require less powerful amps than sealed subs, so don't compare ported and sealed by amp power alone.] BK also do a nice range of finishes in wood grain veneers and piano gloss paint.
I'd also consider adding one of the Anti-Mode bass EQ boxes so smooth out any bass humps your room size generates, though you would need an amp with either a dedicated subwoofer out socket or pre-outs since these boxes don't take speaker level connections. Oh yeah, and get some Blu Tack because things are going to rattle off shelves.
Another contender is the Monoprice range of subs. The V10-12" is a ported 12" sub with 500W amp. It's not tremendously sophisticated - the vinyl wrap black ash finish harks back to the '80s-'90s era - and it lacks the dual Hi-Level Low-Level inputs of the BK subs, but for £600 (12") the sub works well. It does produce a lot of output and the frequency curve for that output is flat before any room modes rear their heads. Once again, you'd be wise to add an Anti-Mode and you'll need an amp with dedicated subwoofer out or pre-out sockets.
Once you're heading towards £1,000 then you're into SVS territory. Here you have subs both sealed and ported subs. The Pro series subs have a room EQ tuning app and both hi-level and low level signal connections like the BK subs. However, you can only use one or the other input, not both at the same time like the BKs. The smallest of the range is the sealed SB-1000 Pro at £680. (SB = sealed box, PB = ported box). Have a look at the SB-2000 Pro and the PB-2000 Pro.
Regarding your Bose sub's power handling. There's a reason why it'll take anything you throw at it, and it's not because of anything to do with quality. You might want to sit down for this.
Bose subs aren't in the same class as REL, SVS, BK. KEF or any of the major speaker / subwoofer brands. They make a bass hump between 40 and 60Hz that human hearing equates with quantity. Below 40Hz they really don't do that much.
If you do decide to go for an amplifier based on Class D technology then make sure it's one with a subwoofer out socket via RCA. The reason is that there's a problem driving external powered subs from the speaker level connection of class D amps. There's a residual DC voltage underneath the AC music signal. Over time it burns out the sub's high-level circuit. This won't happen on day one. It'll take weeks or even months, but it will kill the sub.
BK does a filtering accessory for its subs to overcome the issue.
First off, if you're going to stores where they're only interested in "pushing you into buying what they want to clear from their stock" then you're at the wrong type of store. Then again, if you've set your heart on some specific product then that suggests you're maybe not so open to listening to other gear and giving it a fair shout, so do you really want to waste time walking into a proper specialist store?
RELs subs are decent, but the T7 is an 8" sub and by the sound of it you need to be looking at 12" to get you the sort of air mass moving that you're looking for. Personally I'd go for a sealed sub as under a grand they're more linear and dig deeper. They're also easier to place in a room, but they don't have the sheer volume of output that a ported sub will have. Ported goes louder, but at the expense of bass depth. The driver works down to the port frequency but then the port resonance takes over and the frequencies pretty much hit a brick wall whereas a sealed sub keeps on diving down.
Have a look at BK subs. They were the subcontracted manufacturer for REL and MJ Acoustics. Maybe others too. BK is now a brand in its own right and very well respected. The company doesn't sell through retailers. It sells direct. There's a lot of love for the brand within the stereo and AV community. You get one of their subs on approval.
Personally I'd look at the the XXLS400, a sealed sub with a 12" long throw driver and a 400W continuous output amplifier. Don't let the low price put you off. This is a serious bit of kit for the bargain price of £470. If you want to go ported then the Monolith or Monolith-Plus at around £500 and £600 respectfully are excellent. [Side note - ported subs require less powerful amps than sealed subs, so don't compare ported and sealed by amp power alone.] BK also do a nice range of finishes in wood grain veneers and piano gloss paint.
I'd also consider adding one of the Anti-Mode bass EQ boxes so smooth out any bass humps your room size generates, though you would need an amp with either a dedicated subwoofer out socket or pre-outs since these boxes don't take speaker level connections. Oh yeah, and get some Blu Tack because things are going to rattle off shelves.
Another contender is the Monoprice range of subs. The V10-12" is a ported 12" sub with 500W amp. It's not tremendously sophisticated - the vinyl wrap black ash finish harks back to the '80s-'90s era - and it lacks the dual Hi-Level Low-Level inputs of the BK subs, but for £600 (12") the sub works well. It does produce a lot of output and the frequency curve for that output is flat before any room modes rear their heads. Once again, you'd be wise to add an Anti-Mode and you'll need an amp with dedicated subwoofer out or pre-out sockets.
Once you're heading towards £1,000 then you're into SVS territory. Here you have subs both sealed and ported subs. The Pro series subs have a room EQ tuning app and both hi-level and low level signal connections like the BK subs. However, you can only use one or the other input, not both at the same time like the BKs. The smallest of the range is the sealed SB-1000 Pro at £680. (SB = sealed box, PB = ported box). Have a look at the SB-2000 Pro and the PB-2000 Pro.
Regarding your Bose sub's power handling. There's a reason why it'll take anything you throw at it, and it's not because of anything to do with quality. You might want to sit down for this.
Bose subs aren't in the same class as REL, SVS, BK. KEF or any of the major speaker / subwoofer brands. They make a bass hump between 40 and 60Hz that human hearing equates with quantity. Below 40Hz they really don't do that much.
If you do decide to go for an amplifier based on Class D technology then make sure it's one with a subwoofer out socket via RCA. The reason is that there's a problem driving external powered subs from the speaker level connection of class D amps. There's a residual DC voltage underneath the AC music signal. Over time it burns out the sub's high-level circuit. This won't happen on day one. It'll take weeks or even months, but it will kill the sub.
BK does a filtering accessory for its subs to overcome the issue.
Edited by Lucid_AV on Wednesday 7th December 14:44
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The Node would be your pre-amp / music streamer / Digital to Analog Converter (DAC) Yes, you would take RCA L&R to the inputs on the C268.
There is a Sub out RCA on the Node, which is vital to this strategy.
The Node has an app called Bluos. It can play music from (almost) all online services, be they free or subscription based. Bluos integrates all your Tidal, Spotify, YouTube Music services.
It can also see any iTunes libraries at the same address.
Internet radio obvs.
If you would like actual You Tube, then you need to watch it on something.
If that is a portable device, you can resort to Bluetooth if you must.
Ideally though, if you’d like visual smart TV apps, you would run your (recent TV with ARC) HDMI to the Node as well, so the system will be you whole ‘home entertainment’ in one.
ARC is HDMI cable connection, with built in Audio Return Chanel)
The Node can be address with one single app for all music on ALL your devises at the same time.
It will power ON the C268 automatically.
If you turn on your TV, the system will wake up automatically and be your TV sound and your TV / Sky remote will operate the Kef / Rel volume. No thought required.
It works like a massive posh sound bar.
The level of flexibility and adjustment with their Bluos app settings, power amp, active sub solution is huge and will cater for almost any room / speaker location.
The amp even has switchable in/out gain.
Ultra simple to use once set up too.
Safe for the whole family too, as you can dictate max volume in the app, so nobody accidentally nukes the whole thing by accident.
You're very correct in saying this is a topic where personal bias regards equipment occurs...so I'll carry on that tradition...
Nintronics are selling a Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 & KEF LS50 Meta package for £2400, a very hefty saving over retail - you're aware of the KEFs strengths, the Lyngdorf is a totally digital amplifier all the way to the speaker output and has 30amp of current to do so; its very compact and you can stream or directly control it via Airplay 2/Google Cast/UPnP or NAS/USB storage, it has two optical and two coaxial digital inputs, a phono input (for turntable) a single RCA input, and HDMI ARC input - and RCA pre-outs for subs. It uses Lyngdorf's proprietary 'Room Perfect' room correction system via its supplied microphone and stand to measure the power response of the speakers in the room and adjusts the frequency response to suit your room - crucially, it integrates sub/s perfectly and is very easy to set up (it has various in-built 'voicings' (EQ filters) and you can add your own, you can also set various listening positions and switch between them in the app if you sit in different spots)
I picked one up a month or so ago to use with a pair of PMCs and a BK P12-300, I've since bought a second BK P12-300...I'm blown away with the sound quality and ease of use; room is L-shaped 3.5m x 8.5m firing up the length, tricky accoustics due to patio doors to the left speaker, Room Perfect sorted it all out and I'm not short of output either (it'll play at 100+db 3.5m from the speakers all do long - I don't, it can) Read a dealer response to someone today saying it works very well indeed with the LS50M.
Alternatively, the NAD C399 does much the same as the Lyngdorf but uses Dirac for its room correction software, bit more involved to set up, but it has more inputs, has more power, and has BluOS as standard (NAD and Bluesound have the same parent company)
Compact subs like the KEF KC62 you touched on are mad for the size of them, and expensive - SVS Micro 3000 would be a slightly cheaper alternative if space is a factor, but if you can then stereo subs versus a single sub will be better for music (a single sub sums both left and right channel output into one versus allocating the left and right output to an individual sub for a more even response and a bit more output - given you listen to a lot of EDM you'll want subs that can go low/dig deep, the smaller REL T series, short of two 9Xs, won't cut it for EDM.
A pair of SVS SB1000 PRO, some of the Arendal subs maybe? But I'd stick to dedicated sub brands over speaker manufacturers who have subs in their range...for the most part.
There's dealers out there who will do home trial, and you've also got distance selling regs on your side for a bit of home demoing too.
And whilst Bluetooth is handy, WiFi streaming over your network is of a far, far higher quality - I reckon you had a combo in your demo of a poorly set-up sub and a system being fed with a mediocre source in Bluetooth and it all falling apart - Bluetooth has a max bitrate less than half that of CD, often less than a third; via WiFi you'll get much higher resolution than CD from hi-res streaming (whether we can hear the improvement over CD quality is a different argument, but it kicks Bluetooth's backside)
Nintronics are selling a Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 & KEF LS50 Meta package for £2400, a very hefty saving over retail - you're aware of the KEFs strengths, the Lyngdorf is a totally digital amplifier all the way to the speaker output and has 30amp of current to do so; its very compact and you can stream or directly control it via Airplay 2/Google Cast/UPnP or NAS/USB storage, it has two optical and two coaxial digital inputs, a phono input (for turntable) a single RCA input, and HDMI ARC input - and RCA pre-outs for subs. It uses Lyngdorf's proprietary 'Room Perfect' room correction system via its supplied microphone and stand to measure the power response of the speakers in the room and adjusts the frequency response to suit your room - crucially, it integrates sub/s perfectly and is very easy to set up (it has various in-built 'voicings' (EQ filters) and you can add your own, you can also set various listening positions and switch between them in the app if you sit in different spots)
I picked one up a month or so ago to use with a pair of PMCs and a BK P12-300, I've since bought a second BK P12-300...I'm blown away with the sound quality and ease of use; room is L-shaped 3.5m x 8.5m firing up the length, tricky accoustics due to patio doors to the left speaker, Room Perfect sorted it all out and I'm not short of output either (it'll play at 100+db 3.5m from the speakers all do long - I don't, it can) Read a dealer response to someone today saying it works very well indeed with the LS50M.
Alternatively, the NAD C399 does much the same as the Lyngdorf but uses Dirac for its room correction software, bit more involved to set up, but it has more inputs, has more power, and has BluOS as standard (NAD and Bluesound have the same parent company)
Compact subs like the KEF KC62 you touched on are mad for the size of them, and expensive - SVS Micro 3000 would be a slightly cheaper alternative if space is a factor, but if you can then stereo subs versus a single sub will be better for music (a single sub sums both left and right channel output into one versus allocating the left and right output to an individual sub for a more even response and a bit more output - given you listen to a lot of EDM you'll want subs that can go low/dig deep, the smaller REL T series, short of two 9Xs, won't cut it for EDM.
A pair of SVS SB1000 PRO, some of the Arendal subs maybe? But I'd stick to dedicated sub brands over speaker manufacturers who have subs in their range...for the most part.
There's dealers out there who will do home trial, and you've also got distance selling regs on your side for a bit of home demoing too.
And whilst Bluetooth is handy, WiFi streaming over your network is of a far, far higher quality - I reckon you had a combo in your demo of a poorly set-up sub and a system being fed with a mediocre source in Bluetooth and it all falling apart - Bluetooth has a max bitrate less than half that of CD, often less than a third; via WiFi you'll get much higher resolution than CD from hi-res streaming (whether we can hear the improvement over CD quality is a different argument, but it kicks Bluetooth's backside)
You’ve had some excellent replies so far. I suggest you leave it a day or so and then re-read them and absorb the info given.
It will help you avoid chasing your tail and future disappointment..
I don’t mean this as a jibe or having a go at you but I think one issue you may be having is becoming accustomed to the ‘bass’ from the Bose. Believe me here, once you hear what a real sub can do there’s no going back. Texture, nuance, depth and heft rather than a one note thump. An ability to give a sense of space where previously you thought there was no bass on a particular recording. Done well and set up correctly, subs have an eerie knack of improving ambience and midrange clarity.
Once you hear it you’ll know.
Anecdotally, I recently sold a pair of immaculate BK P12-300’s with all the required cabling together with an Antimode bass EQ for £500.
They’re regularly available on the used market at (or around) that price.
Edited to add:
A decent set up deserves so much better than the compressed sound from YouTube.
It will help you avoid chasing your tail and future disappointment..
I don’t mean this as a jibe or having a go at you but I think one issue you may be having is becoming accustomed to the ‘bass’ from the Bose. Believe me here, once you hear what a real sub can do there’s no going back. Texture, nuance, depth and heft rather than a one note thump. An ability to give a sense of space where previously you thought there was no bass on a particular recording. Done well and set up correctly, subs have an eerie knack of improving ambience and midrange clarity.
Once you hear it you’ll know.
Anecdotally, I recently sold a pair of immaculate BK P12-300’s with all the required cabling together with an Antimode bass EQ for £500.
They’re regularly available on the used market at (or around) that price.
Edited to add:
A decent set up deserves so much better than the compressed sound from YouTube.
Edited by legzr1 on Thursday 8th December 00:57
What about something like a pair of JBL L82 classics in a similar price point to the kefs Probably not up to matching the kef's for clarity and overall sound quality but seem to review well and would making pack the punch of the current boss. setup. would also look right if you got a pair of turntables set back up.
Was going to mention watching some of John Darko YouTube videos as he has a more of a focus on electronic music then most Hi fi audio channels. Think he even has a video comparing the kef sub to a svs one.
Was going to mention watching some of John Darko YouTube videos as he has a more of a focus on electronic music then most Hi fi audio channels. Think he even has a video comparing the kef sub to a svs one.
As you seem to be going around in circles over which to use, i'm going to throw a spanner in the works, get on the used pages and look for s/h REL ST series subs, a Storm 3, Stadium 3 or Stentor 2 will solve your issues in one stroke, If you can find a Stadium 3 in good condition it's all you'll ever need, beautifully built and finished, it's performance will literally blow you away, very very musical.
Here's a Stentor 2 with a warranty.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304729368438?hash=item4...
Stentor 3
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255525234375?hash=item3...
Stadium 2
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265788156801?hash=item3...
Stadium 3 user reviews
http://www.audioreview.com/product/speakers/subwoo...
I owned a Storm for 15 years and it never missed a beat, the only thing that failed was the lamp inside the switch!, I upgraded to a Stadium 3 that bettered it in every respect, I had that for four years and only don't own it now because I emigrated to the USA.
And for s
ts and giggles here's a review of the ultimate REL sub of that time the Studio 2, that occasionally pop up for reasonable money, when I was selling this stuff back in the '90's there was nothing that got near them in my opinion.
In all honesty I don't think they've been bettered since,
https://www.stereophile.com/content/rel-acoustics-...
Here's a Stentor 2 with a warranty.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304729368438?hash=item4...
Stentor 3
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255525234375?hash=item3...
Stadium 2
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265788156801?hash=item3...
Stadium 3 user reviews
http://www.audioreview.com/product/speakers/subwoo...
I owned a Storm for 15 years and it never missed a beat, the only thing that failed was the lamp inside the switch!, I upgraded to a Stadium 3 that bettered it in every respect, I had that for four years and only don't own it now because I emigrated to the USA.
And for s
ts and giggles here's a review of the ultimate REL sub of that time the Studio 2, that occasionally pop up for reasonable money, when I was selling this stuff back in the '90's there was nothing that got near them in my opinion. In all honesty I don't think they've been bettered since,
https://www.stereophile.com/content/rel-acoustics-...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
My PC is toslink to a DAC.Coaxial digital should go a long way down some fairly small wire.
Some years ago I was playing around with WiFi DACs, they probably fell by the wayside when I moved to Windows 10.
The external DAC has great signal/noise It's not an expensive thing to try.
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