How to test a Home Cinema system(?)

[993kimbo]

Is there any way to test if your home cinema system is set up correctly apart from your own ears?

I'm not disappointed with mine but wonder if I've got the levels/eq right.

I've played things like Adobe's Helicopter from You Tube and it sounds pretty good.

My amp is a Sony STR-DN1080 and there's lots of settings to play with in there.

I have done the auto calibration but wan't too happy with the balance between the Centre and the two fronts, so I wonder how good that is.

I have it set to Flat now as opposed to Engineer.

I guess it's all a matter of personal choice, the OCD in me wants it as best as it can be...

Thank you!

[Some Gump]

sound meter.

Setup 101 (assuming your amp doesnt have room eq or anything):

First, set the speaker sizes correctly. Normally small / large. Set the crossover for the sub.
Next, measure distance from your listening position to each speaker, etc, enter into the delay portion if the menu.

Now, put on the amp's built in test tone on the centre channel. Turn your sound meter on to something sensible (790/80dB used to work for me) depending on the system). Turn volume of the whole amp up / down until he meter reads 0 when held at ear level in listening position. (assuming you've bought a 9.99 special.from rs components or similar).

Now, go to each surround speaker in turn, and adjust each one's level til it's also 0 like the centre. Voila, all but sub sorted!

For sub, google sub room accoustics and have a read. Then position it where she lets you and make the best of it

[993kimbo]

Some Gump said:

...Then position it where she lets you and make the best of it

Ha. I like it.



Another question if I may:

I'm using Hi-fi floor standing speakers called Totem Arro's in my system. Are Hi-fi speakers okay for Home cinema?

I read in the amp manual that they can be bi-wired (?) and even used with a separate amp but that went right over my head.


"5.1-channel speaker system with Bi-Amplifier connection:

When the front speakers are Bi-wire speakers, which are equipped with separate terminals for high-frequency sounds (tweeter) and low-frequency sounds (woofer), you can make the bi- amplifier connection. Connect each pair of terminals for tweeter and woofer to the SPEAKERS FRONT A terminals and SPEAKERS SURROUND BACK/HEIGHT terminals of this receiver. You can enjoy higher quality sound playback if you operate the tweeter and woofer using separate amplifiers."


Worth doing?

[stevoknevo]

993kimbo said:

Some Gump said:

...Then position it where she lets you and make the best of it

Ha. I like it.



Another question if I may:

I'm using Hi-fi floor standing speakers called Totem Arro's in my system. Are Hi-fi speakers okay for Home cinema?

I read in the amp manual that they can be bi-wired (?) and even used with a separate amp but that went right over my head.


"5.1-channel speaker system with Bi-Amplifier connection:

When the front speakers are Bi-wire speakers, which are equipped with separate terminals for high-frequency sounds (tweeter) and low-frequency sounds (woofer), you can make the bi- amplifier connection. Connect each pair of terminals for tweeter and woofer to the SPEAKERS FRONT A terminals and SPEAKERS SURROUND BACK/HEIGHT terminals of this receiver. You can enjoy higher quality sound playback if you operate the tweeter and woofer using separate amplifiers."


Worth doing?

Many people will tell you 'biwire = buy wire', you'll very likely notice no difference but if you have spare cable then nothing to lose (often the jumpers on the speakers themselves are of poor quality, making jumpers from a section of whatever speaker cable you have will do.

For sub position, place the sub in your listening position as close to ear position as is feasible, play something with good bass and get down on your hands and knees and crawl around the room until you find where it sounds best, place your sub in that location and adjust distance on the amp to suit (known as the 'sub crawl') Set the crossover for the Arro's at 80hz (what centre and rears do you have?) and adjust sub gain to suit - you might need to play with the sub distance setting to get it to blend properly depending on the delay inherent in sub.

[Lucid_AV]

993kimbo said:

Another question if I may:

I'm using Hi-fi floor standing speakers called Totem Arro's in my system. Are Hi-fi speakers okay for Home cinema?

I read in the amp manual that they can be bi-wired (?) and even used with a separate amp but that went right over my head.


"5.1-channel speaker system with Bi-Amplifier connection:

When the front speakers are Bi-wire speakers, which are equipped with separate terminals for high-frequency sounds (tweeter) and low-frequency sounds (woofer), you can make the bi- amplifier connection. Connect each pair of terminals for tweeter and woofer to the SPEAKERS FRONT A terminals and SPEAKERS SURROUND BACK/HEIGHT terminals of this receiver. You can enjoy higher quality sound playback if you operate the tweeter and woofer using separate amplifiers."


Worth doing?

The issue I see with bi-amping from something like an AV receiver or single integrated amp is that all the power is being pulled from the same transformer power supply circuit. It's like having a cake. Whether you divide it in to 5 pieces or 7, you still only have the one cake, and it didn't get any bigger. That's why proper bi-amping involves running an extra external power amp. Now you have two cakes to divide up. Bigger portions of power all round.

To do bi-amping with an external power amp requires some special line output sockets called pre-outs. These go 1-for-1 with the main 5.1/7.1 speaker channels. In the case of running the front L&R speakers bi-amped you'd have the tweeters (HF) connected to the receiver speaker outputs and then run a set of RCA cables from Front L&R pre-outs to a power amp that then runs speaker wire to the LF inputs on your Totems. Obviously the bridging links would be removed. In this was the more power-hungry mid/bass drivers get their own reserve of power to tap from the external pre-amp. The pre-out sockets track the volume level the same as the speaker connections.

The thing is that the STR-DN1080 doesn't have pre-outs. The only option for bi-amping is to run everything by tapping the same reservoir of power. One cake: More slices.

There is an argument to say that in bi-amping from an AV receiver it means that you're employing more of the output transistors. That is true, but IMO it's (very) small beer compared to the difference having more transformers on the job can make. When amps are measured for power output comparing running just one channel, then two, then 5, then 7, there's a corresponding fall in power. I think then what small gains there are from running more output transistors is lost (and then some) by the fall in power across all the channels.

That's not to say that the tone of the sound won't change with bi-amping. It may well do. The question is whether that's an improvement or just different.

Something else to remember is that this is passive bi-amping. The speaker crossovers are still in place even if the bridging link between HF and LF drives is removed. That means there are components in place to filter the frequencies and so dump power before the signal gets to the drivers.

To balance the argument you could say that adding the extra cabling means more copper to carry the power. That's rarely a bad thing, but better standard cables could yield just the same change. That and replacing the jumpers with some short links of the same speaker cable.

This is what the inside of your 1080 looks like. https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/264845-sony...
Note the square block. That's the transformer. The blue cylinder thing is the main reservoir capacitor. Compare and contrast with the Sansui amp circuit boards further down the thread.

Edited by Lucid_AV on Wednesday 12th October 00:04

[OutInTheShed]

993kimbo said:

Ha. I like it.



Another question if I may:

I'm using Hi-fi floor standing speakers called Totem Arro's in my system. Are Hi-fi speakers okay for Home cinema?

I read in the amp manual that they can be bi-wired (?) and even used with a separate amp but that went right over my head.


"5.1-channel speaker system with Bi-Amplifier connection:

When the front speakers are Bi-wire speakers, which are equipped with separate terminals for high-frequency sounds (tweeter) and low-frequency sounds (woofer), you can make the bi- amplifier connection. Connect each pair of terminals for tweeter and woofer to the SPEAKERS FRONT A terminals and SPEAKERS SURROUND BACK/HEIGHT terminals of this receiver. You can enjoy higher quality sound playback if you operate the tweeter and woofer using separate amplifiers."


Worth doing?

That sounds like a good way to get the genuine 'cinema' experience of being in your local flea pit where the sound has been fiddled with by an idiot.
It might sound OK with some soundtracks, it might sound rubbish with others where there is genuine multichannel sound.

Yes, using separate amps for tweeter and woofer might improve things, but only if the correct signal is going to each speaker.
If your receiver or amp is producing the 'rear' signals by processing 'ordinary' stereo, then the 'rear' might be the right thing to feed the woofers with.
OTOH if there's actually a different rear channel coming from your DVD or whatever, then you might be losing the low frequency part of the front channels which should e going to the woofer.

Simple bi-wiring, where the woofer and tweeter are connected together at the amp instead of at the speaker MIGHT improve the sound, by reducing electrical inter-action between woofer and tweeter which creates distortion. Possible the effect will depend on the amp, speakers and cable in question.
Some people have found improvements here.. Personally I have a pair of bi-wired speakers, my feeling is they sound a bit better at higher volume bi-wired, but the difference is fairly minor and only comes out with certain kinds of music.

With films, I think the acid test is clarity of dialogue with background sounds or music.
One thing that's either interesting or depressing to try is to compare listening through your speakers against some £100 headphones.
When you can understand every mumbled word via the Sennheissers but not through your elaborate multichannel audio, there's something wrong, but I think the damage is often done by the production team.

Some children just want louder sound effects of course.

[993kimbo]

I appreciated your comprehensive and helpful replies, thank you.I think I'll give the bi-wiring and extra amplifier a miss.

I spent quite a bit of time yesterday fiddling about - mostly with the sub - and whittling down what I really want from my system - as OutInTheShed clearly put it: Clarity of Dialogue with background sounds or music.

I'm not massively interested in room-shaking explosions or helicopters flying over, my priority is Dialogue.

I mainly watch Netflix and Amazon Prime films and TV series.

The problem I find is that the sound mixing varies so much between productions that when you think you have perfected your system's sound settings, along comes a badly mixed show and you're back to square one again.

I got a nice sound watching The Crown and the film Heat which I was happy with and then put on the new Elvis film which was hard to hear the dialogue in places and the music was generally a bit wooly. I know that Elvis is mumbly at the best of times.

Later, the Bake-off on ITV had a really deep classical bass running throughout which had me turning down the volume on the sub, as it started booming (sub is on floorboards, rest of room carpeted)


Does anyone experience clear and unclear sound with the dialogue sometimes? On one production it's ok, on another it's not?
If so, do you keep changing your settings?



My setup is:

Amp: Sony STR- DN1080
Centre: Definitive Technology CS9040
Fronts: Totem Arro
Sub: REL T5
Atmos: Cambridge Audio cubes facing ceiling on top of front speakers
Surround: Cambridge Audio cubes
Back: MJ Acoustics Xeno series (a centre speaker)

Speaker Pattern is set to 5.1.2
In reality it's 6.1.2 but that is not available on the amp.



Many thanks for any responses..

Edited by 993kimbo on Wednesday 12th October 17:32

[OutInTheShed]

Personally I just use a Sony TV, I find the sound OK for most dialogue.
I'm serious about trying the headphones, a friend has real hearing problems, a good pair of phones fed by the optical out of her TV really impressed me.
I'd not want to use phones, but as a measure of what it should sound like it's very useful.

Where the TV shows its audio limits is certain music, big orchestra stuff. That is clearly better from the optical to a DAC and into a moderate retro HiFi, The DAC is a £15-ish Prozor, the amp is a Cambridge or a NAD and the speakers are some mid-size Wharfedales I got for about £20.

I'm not into home cinema, I've been impressed by a few and others have irritated me.
Some of the irritation might be the system, some might be 5point-whatever data it's been given.
Not my subject, I don't have all the answers.
Can you roll back to plain old Stereo?

At least with streamed content you can try different set-ups with the same material for comparison.

Mildly interested in adding a sub to the above Wharfedales for general listening, that maybe deserves a thread of its own.

Another point is, sometimes when the audio goes bad, it's actually the digits, whether it's the CD player on the edge of not reading the disc, the interweb strangling youtube or you telly struggling to keep up with poor wifi.
And someitmes, it's me. A second opinion can help.

[OutInTheShed]

Lucid_AV said:

The issue I see with bi-amping from something like an AV receiver or single integrated amp is that all the power is being pulled from the same transformer power supply circuit. It's like having a cake. Whether you divide it in to 5 pieces or 7, you still only have the one cake, and it didn't get any bigger. That's why proper bi-amping involves running an extra external power amp. Now you have two cakes to divide up. Bigger portions of power all round.

To do bi-amping with an external power amp requires some special line output sockets called pre-outs. These go 1-for-1 with the main 5.1/7.1 speaker channels. In the case of running the front L&R speakers bi-amped you'd have the tweeters (HF) connected to the receiver speaker outputs and then run a set of RCA cables from Front L&R pre-outs to a power amp that then runs speaker wire to the LF inputs on your Totems. Obviously the bridging links would be removed. In this was the more power-hungry mid/bass drivers get their own reserve of power to tap from the external pre-amp. The pre-out sockets track the volume level the same as the speaker connections.

The thing is that the STR-DN1080 doesn't have pre-outs. The only option for bi-amping is to run everything by tapping the same reservoir of power. One cake: More slices.

There is an argument to say that in bi-amping from an AV receiver it means that you're employing more of the output transistors. That is true, but IMO it's (very) small beer compared to the difference having more transformers on the job can make. When amps are measured for power output comparing running just one channel, then two, then 5, then 7, there's a corresponding fall in power. I think then what small gains there are from running more output transistors is lost (and then some) by the fall in power across all the channels.

That's not to say that the tone of the sound won't change with bi-amping. It may well do. The question is whether that's an improvement or just different.

Something else to remember is that this is passive bi-amping. The speaker crossovers are still in place even if the bridging link between HF and LF drives is removed. That means there are components in place to filter the frequencies and so dump power before the signal gets to the drivers.

To balance the argument you could say that adding the extra cabling means more copper to carry the power. That's rarely a bad thing, but better standard cables could yield just the same change. That and replacing the jumpers with some short links of the same speaker cable.

This is what the inside of your 1080 looks like. https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/264845-sony...
Note the square block. That's the transformer. The blue cylinder thing is the main reservoir capacitor. Compare and contrast with the Sansui amp circuit boards further down the thread.

Edited by Lucid_AV on Wednesday 12th October 00:04

Hiya,
I have the impression you are in the AV business, and I'm a little surprised at the emphasis (sic) you're putting on this.
Would you say that many home systems are really power limited, and that the limitations of the power supply/transformer are a big part of that?
I'd be interested to know more.

[Sheets Tabuer]

That scene from Heat.

[Lucid_AV]

OutInTheShed said:

[b]That sounds like a good way to get the genuine 'cinema' experience of being in your local flea pit where the sound has been fiddled with by an idiot.
It might sound OK with some soundtracks, it might sound rubbish with others where there is genuine multichannel sound.

Yes, using separate amps for tweeter and woofer might improve things, but only if the correct signal is going to each speaker.
If your receiver or amp is producing the 'rear' signals by processing 'ordinary' stereo, then the 'rear' might be the right thing to feed the woofers with.
OTOH if there's actually a different rear channel coming from your DVD or whatever, then you might be losing the low frequency part of the front channels which should e going to the woofer.[/b]

Simple bi-wiring, where the woofer and tweeter are connected together at the amp instead of at the speaker MIGHT improve the sound, by reducing electrical inter-action between woofer and tweeter which creates distortion. Possible the effect will depend on the amp, speakers and cable in question.
Some people have found improvements here.. Personally I have a pair of bi-wired speakers, my feeling is they sound a bit better at higher volume bi-wired, but the difference is fairly minor and only comes out with certain kinds of music.

With films, I think the acid test is clarity of dialogue with background sounds or music.
One thing that's either interesting or depressing to try is to compare listening through your speakers against some £100 headphones.
When you can understand every mumbled word via the Sennheissers but not through your elaborate multichannel audio, there's something wrong, but I think the damage is often done by the production team.

Some children just want louder sound effects of course.

BIB - I think you've misunderstood. Bi-amping from an AV receiver doesn't work that way. You wouldn't be mixing front and rear signals in to the HF and LF inputs respectively. Nor would you be losing bass.

AV receivers have had assignable amp channels for almost 2 decades. "Assignable" means that via an on screen display, it's possible to alter the internal signal routing within the amp. Take a 7.1 amp as an example. The main 5.1 ground channels (C, FL, FR, SL, SR) are fixed. However, the rear channel surround sockets used for ES and EX surround could be be reassigned as either Zone 2 Stereo or as Bi-Amp outputs for FL and FR. You make the choice via the menu, and then wire the speakers accordingly.

In the case of most AV -receivers - amps bi-amping then FL, FR, RSL, RSR all provide the appropriate left / right full channel signals. It's left up to the crossover in the speakers to filter treble and bass content. So, no mixing of front and rear audio in one set of speakers and no odd phasy effects to replicate fleapit tinkering in create pseudo surround. The sub channel still works as normal too; filtering off any bass below the crossover point for the ground and height channels if used.

[Lucid_AV]

OutInTheShed said:

Hiya,
I have the impression you are in the AV business, and I'm a little surprised at the emphasis (sic) you're putting on this.
Would you say that many home systems are really power limited, and that the limitations of the power supply/transformer are a big part of that?
I'd be interested to know more.

Yes, I am say that.

It's not universal for all AV amps. There are Denons which measure well for their ability to hold up power when all channels are driven full frequency (20Hz-20kHz) in to 8 Ohms at 0.1% THD. These are the higher end Denons though. ARCAMs have pretty resilient power supplies too.

The basic issue has been the budget and midrange stuff. So much emphasis is put on power figures, and there's only so much budget to go around in a typical AV receiver. When all a receiver had to do was provide a few optical and coaxial digital inputs along with the analogues for DD/DTS 5.1, and Room EQ was a distant dream, then more money could go in to transformers, capacitors and the amp sections. When the STR-DN1080 was out the budget had to get split to cover HDMI (and the licensing), more amp channels, fancy OSDs, ATMOS, Room EQ etc. Meanwhile the cost of raw materials, shipping etc had all increased. That's a lot of pressure on budgets, and so corners get cut.

It's a bit like Dieselgate; there's only so far real technology can be pushed before someone has to "get creative" in order to meet some or other demand.

[OutInTheShed]

Lucid_AV said:

BIB - I think you've misunderstood. Bi-amping from an AV receiver doesn't work that way. You wouldn't be mixing front and rear signals in to the HF and LF inputs respectively. Nor would you be losing bass.

AV receivers have had assignable amp channels for almost 2 decades. "Assignable" means that via an on screen display, it's possible to alter the internal signal routing within the amp. Take a 7.1 amp as an example. The main 5.1 ground channels (C, FL, FR, SL, SR) are fixed. However, the rear channel surround sockets used for ES and EX surround could be be reassigned as either Zone 2 Stereo or as Bi-Amp outputs for FL and FR. You make the choice via the menu, and then wire the speakers accordingly.

In the case of most AV -receivers - amps bi-amping then FL, FR, RSL, RSR all provide the appropriate left / right full channel signals. It's left up to the crossover in the speakers to filter treble and bass content. So, no mixing of front and rear audio in one set of speakers and no odd phasy effects to replicate fleapit tinkering in create pseudo surround. The sub channel still works as normal too; filtering off any bass below the crossover point for the ground and height channels if used.

Thanks for that.
I don't really do 'AV' and 'almost 2 decades' is a bit modern for me!

So if you use one of these contraptions in 'bi-amp' mode, does it do active crossover between woofer and tweeter, or just rely on the passive crossover in the speaker? I'm assuming there's a big enough bucket of DSP in there to do that. Could be interesting as a cheap route to active crossovers for a few experiments I want to do. Picking up a multichannel amp with variable crossover built in would be a cheap answer.

[993kimbo]

Sheets Tabuer said:

That scene from Heat.

Absolutely brilliant.

[V8covin]

Tuen your centre speaker up and turn the bass down,that will make vocals much clearer

[Lucid_AV]

OutInTheShed said:

So if you use one of these contraptions in 'bi-amp' mode, does it do active crossover between woofer and tweeter, or just rely on the passive crossover in the speaker? I'm assuming there's a big enough bucket of DSP in there to do that. Could be interesting as a cheap route to active crossovers for a few experiments I want to do. Picking up a multichannel amp with variable crossover built in would be a cheap answer.

You'd need to read the manuals for any specific AV receiver / AV amp as it will vary between models and the hierarchy within a manufacturers range.

I think you'll find that the majority of receivers/amps that would compete with the Sony STR-DN1080 will send full range audio to each if the HF and LF connections. They'll rely on the speaker's internal crossover to then filter audio and handle the blend point.

There are (or have been) some higher-end AV receivers with more control over bi-amping, but you'd be looking at upwards of £2K, and whether there's enough scope to handle roll-off rates as well as blend point, and do so for3-way designs as well as 2-way..... hmm.

In the end too you're still dealing with an AV amp/receiver front end and the limits of the power amp stage in them.

On point to consider is the number of output transistors per channel. I recently sold a Parasound 2205a 5 ch power amp and its matching 2 ch brother. They're both still great AV power amps which deliver massive amounts of current. They do well for music too, but they're not considered purist Hi-Fi power amps.

Now contrast with something like the Bryston equivalents. They were a lot more money. Part of that is down to brand prestige, but some of the rest is due to the output transistor configuration. You see, the Brystons use one pair per output channel. The Parasounds use multiple transitor pairs per channel. A single pair is purer than a stacked bank, but like cracking the 200mph barrier with a car design, that extra speed compared to a car that hits 160mph becomes disproportionately more expensive.

With transistors, making a pair that will dish out 200W is disproportionately more expensive than making a ganged array even though there are more transistors involved.

[OutInTheShed]

Thanks, interesting stuff, brands I'm not familiar with.

In a previous life I dabbled with power transistors.
Multiple transistors= more work to get the load sharing right
Bigger transistor = lower Ft, lower Hfe

The best amp will often be designed by the best designer, rather than the one with the favourite architecture or the biggest parts budget.

[Tony Starks]

Go down the REW and UMIK 1 rabbit hole, a good introduction would be Home Theatre Engineer on YT.

[heisthegaffer]

I enjoy these threads, often learn something new.

Not trying to be contrary but when using my Yamaha RVX2067 with some bi-wirable floorstanders and assigning 7.1 to 5. 1 with the front L and R biamped, I was surprised how much better it sounded, much fuller and more detail.

Perhaps I was just lucky and I suppose it was relatively high end in its day.

[OutInTheShed]

heisthegaffer said:

I enjoy these threads, often learn something new.

Not trying to be contrary but when using my Yamaha RVX2067 with some bi-wirable floorstanders and assigning 7.1 to 5. 1 with the front L and R biamped, I was surprised how much better it sounded, much fuller and more detail.

Perhaps I was just lucky and I suppose it was relatively high end in its day.

I would not have been surprised by that.
Bi-amping can do several things.

Firstly the woofer and tweeter waveforms are separated, so each amp should have less peak demand on it.
Secondly, any back-emf generated by the woofer is removed from the tweeter (and v/v)
Thirdly the separated crossovers might present a better load to the amplifier.

Of course it may depend on many details in practice, like whether the crossover was well optimised for bi-amp use, and there are many opportunities for making things worse.

I'd imagine if you're selling Bi-wireable speakers, you want b-wiring them to improve the sound not make it worse, so the optimisation is bound to favour that?

I've just acquired an old Yamaha AV receiver to break for parts, the main channels look much beefier than the other 3