Amp and speakers to cheap turntable?
Discussion
My wife (against my advice) bought a cheap turntable which incorporates a speaker, surprise, surprise the sound quality is a bit sh*t, it has both. Bluetooth and LR sockets to feed an amp.
Is it worth wiring it up to an amp and speakers (or Bluetooth to a powered speaker) , I’ve no idea whether there is a big difference in the sound quality from low and mid range turntables?
Thanks
G
Is it worth wiring it up to an amp and speakers (or Bluetooth to a powered speaker) , I’ve no idea whether there is a big difference in the sound quality from low and mid range turntables?
Thanks
G
gareth h said:
My wife (against my advice) bought a cheap turntable which incorporates a speaker, surprise, surprise the sound quality is a bit sh*t, it has both. Bluetooth and LR sockets to feed an amp.
Is it worth wiring it up to an amp and speakers (or Bluetooth to a powered speaker) , I’ve no idea whether there is a big difference in the sound quality from low and mid range turntables?
Thanks
G
About four decades ago a 12-year-old me opened his main Christmas present; a record player. Back then we didn't have this sort of made-in-China gear, and so the deck of my budget RP was based on a BSR deck, and this was the same deck you might have found on a tower system or music centre of the day. It was a bit more sturdy than today's budget RPs. The point here though is it used a similar ceramic cartridge which tracked just as heavy as today's units. The tracking weight is around 4-5 grams. Though the RP is long gone I still have all the vinyl I bought and played on it. Is it worth wiring it up to an amp and speakers (or Bluetooth to a powered speaker) , I’ve no idea whether there is a big difference in the sound quality from low and mid range turntables?
Thanks
G
I have a couple of turntables - a Linn and a Roksan - both of which are a country mile better than the old BSR. Those old records still sound just fine despite being played on the old deck quite a few times.
Let's be honest, these Chinese decks are a bit crap. The arm pivot is a weak point and the whole deck construction is a bit flimsy. There's no adjustment for tracking weight (or bias) so you're stuck with however the deck was set up from the manufacturer. Better that though than having adjustment and setting the tracking weight too low.
These styli are designed to track heavy compared to better quality moving magnet cartridges. That's how they work; they need to track heavy in order for the cantilever of the stylus to drive the ceramic crystal that creates the voltage which becomes the music signal. Setting the tracking too low - say the 2-2.5gm of some MM cartridges - would cause a ceramic cartridge stylus to mis-track. That means it could jump the groove or just damage the groove walls because it isn't seated with enough force.
The thing that most users of these decks overlook is that the stone used on the stylus tip is relatively soft compared to a diamond. You'll find that it's a synthetic stone; normally a sapphire or ruby, and the quoted playing life of these is around 50 hours. Yep, just 50 hours. That's why they're dirt cheap to replace. You can pick up a pack of three or four replacement styli from Amazon for well under a tenner. The trick then is to keep on top of replacing the stylus.
Groove wear occurs with all vinyl replay systems. The shape of the stylus tip determines where on the V-groove the wear occurs. The more exotic the stylus profile then the deeper in to the groove it gets. These budget styli or a spherical profile, so very much like half a tennis ball, they ride very high in the groove. Most of the wear they cause is at the top of the V groove. Better grades of styli can reach the virgin groove face where the crude spherical hasn't been able to reach. That's partly why my old records still sound good.
Back to your main question then: Is it worth hooking up an external speaker?
IMO yes.
The amp and speaker(s) in your budget deck won't be up to much. Whether you go BT or use the Phono out sockets won't matter as much as simply having a larger diameter driver capable of better bass reproduction and a bit more power on tap.
Lucid_AV said:
About four decades ago ....
A really interesting post - thank you. Watching Techmoan on YouTube, he says a lot of the problem is that all these crap record players use the same useless Chinese base unit. Once you get beyond these, even without spending a fortune, you can get a great sounding turntable.
A ceramic cartridge can not yield good sound quality.
They have a limited frequency response, poor high frequency tracking ability (despite the high tracking force) which leads to distortion, particularly on the inner part of the record.
They also rely on the properties of the piezo element to provide RIAA compensation instead of using active RIAA equalisation that a magnetic cartridge uses.
Hence if the turntable that the OP has utilises a ceramic cartridge, connecting better speakers etc. etc. is pointless if they are in search of better fidelity.
Of course if it's a of 'never mind the quality, feel the bass' then connecting bigger speakers would work.
Or simply stream the music instead.
They have a limited frequency response, poor high frequency tracking ability (despite the high tracking force) which leads to distortion, particularly on the inner part of the record.
They also rely on the properties of the piezo element to provide RIAA compensation instead of using active RIAA equalisation that a magnetic cartridge uses.
Hence if the turntable that the OP has utilises a ceramic cartridge, connecting better speakers etc. etc. is pointless if they are in search of better fidelity.
Of course if it's a of 'never mind the quality, feel the bass' then connecting bigger speakers would work.
Or simply stream the music instead.
TonyRPH said:
A ceramic cartridge can not yield good sound quality.
They have a limited frequency response, poor high frequency tracking ability (despite the high tracking force) which leads to distortion, particularly on the inner part of the record.
While that is true of most ceramic cartridges, back in the day there were a number of ceramics that didn't suffer from any of the above. The Micro Acoustics 2002e is one such, and there were a few others. They have a limited frequency response, poor high frequency tracking ability (despite the high tracking force) which leads to distortion, particularly on the inner part of the record.
bcr5784 said:
While that is true of most ceramic cartridges, back in the day there were a number of ceramics that didn't suffer from any of the above. The Micro Acoustics 2002e is one such, and there were a few others.
My comment was aimed directly at the cheap ceramics such as those bundled with Crossley type record players, old BSR turntables and the like.The MA 2002 is in a league of it's own as ceramics go (as it should be for the money!).
TonyRPH said:
My comment was aimed directly at the cheap ceramics such as those bundled with Crossley type record players, old BSR turntables and the like.
The MA 2002 is in a league of it's own as ceramics go (as it should be for the money!).
There are probably a few others at more affordable prices that would represent a useful upgrade and make the use of better speakers more effective. The BSR C1 and later variants springs to mind it claimed 20-20k response (- but not the +-3db that the MA2002 specced) and 1.5-6gm tracking (a bit optimistic at the lower end in my experience but I never tried it in a decent arm.)The MA 2002 is in a league of it's own as ceramics go (as it should be for the money!).
bcr5784 said:
There are probably a few others at more affordable prices that would represent a useful upgrade and make the use of better speakers more effective. The BSR C1 and later variants springs to mind it claimed 20-20k response (- but not the +-3db that the MA2002 specced) and 1.5-6gm tracking (a bit optimistic at the lower end in my experience but I never tried it in a decent arm.)
This is a first for me. I don't believe I've ever known anyone to recommend a BSR ceramic cartridge!I worked in the HiFi repair industry for many years (and still dabble) - but apart from perhaps the MA you mentioned previously - I can't see (hear??) any ceramic cartridge sounding - or tracking - better than any budget magnetic cartridge (AT 91/95 springs to mind here).
When I was a kid, the family record player (a Blaupunkt system with a BSR turntable and ceramic cart) was easily trounced by a BSR MP60 + Goldring G800 magnetic cart. which was my own first system (never mind the rumble lol).
gareth h said:
Thanks chaps, so looks like we need to bin the cheapie and start again, ant recommendations for a budget turntable? Upto say £200.
I'd start off with drawing up a list of the essential / nice-to-have / not important features, then see what fits the bill. The following isn't an exhaustive list of what's available. There are probably more turntables and record players on the market in 2022 than there were at the height of vinyl in the 1980s. That's the power of cheap Chinese manufacturing and the Internet at work. However, what I'm listing will cover the basics and give you a reasonable head-start on drawing up your own shortlist.
For example, if you and the missus are new starters with vinyl then you might find it helpful to have a fully automatic turntable. This means you push a button and the platter starts spinning, arm moves over and lowers, the record is played, and then at the end the arm lifts and returns to the rest point and the platter stops. It's a good convenience feature for those nervous about handling record decks. The catch is that all the gears and stuff required to make this happen take money away from the bits that affect how good the deck is at playing a record. That's why you'll have a hard job finding a fully- (or semi-) automatic TT once you move away from the more budget end of the market.
A decent fully-automatic turntable is the Audio Technica AT-LP60XUSB at £140. It's small, a bit plasticky, and there's not much scope to improve the cartridge, so as a first step on the turntable road it's pretty-much a dead-end as far as upgrades etc go. But is does a good job for what it is.
AT-LP60XUSB There's also a BT-equipped version (60XBT) at £189.
Something a bit more "grown up" is the fully-automatic Audio Technica AT-LP2X at £199. It's larger - standard size for most TTs - with more solid construction and you get a proper tone arm with counterbalance weight and bias adjustment. There's better scope to improve the cartridge too.
AT-LP2X
Sticking with fully-auto, the Sony PSLX310BT (£220) appeals to the minimalist / B&O aesthetic. You take a step back in terms of upgradeability - take a look at the arm and you'll see why - but it's a decent deck in its own right if you're looking for something more avant-garde in design terms,
PSLX310BT
There are also some semi-automatic turntables available. Here it means that the platter starts spinning when the tone arm is moved off its rest. At the end of the side the platter will stop. Depending on the design the tonearm might just sit there until moved back manually or it could motor back itself.
There's an Aiwa model APX-680BT available via Amazon. It was around the £180 mark from Richers. Although it includes BT and a USB output as well as a useful phono pre-amp, the thing it is missing is a proper Perspex dust lid. I'd have that on my "essential-to-have" list. There's something that looks like a semi-rigid fabric cover instead. That might be acceptable in a teen's bedroom or a garden bar but it's not quite the thing for the main living areas in a grown-up house.
APX-680BT
What happens then if you drop the need for full/semi auto operation?
At the most basic level you get something that spins records where everything is done manually. You forego even the built-in phono pre-amp. The Pro-Ject Primary E is a perfect example. It's £200, but you do get a dust lid (LOL). It's a bit like buying an Arial Atom or a motorbike. You're not buying this for the air-con or the stereo or luxuries such as a windscreen. However, you'd be hard pushed to find a turntable at that price which dos a better job of getting music from a record groove.
Something with a few more creature comforts is the Lenco LBT-188 (was £160 @ Richers. Looks to be around £200 now from other online stockists). Hre you get the pre-amp (essential) and USB and BT connectivity (nice-to-have). There's a decent tonearm with the adjustability to accommodate a cartridge swap at a later date if you fancy it. There is also a range of finishes, so you might find something that fits with the room decor.
Lenco LBT-188
You'll have questions, so just post them here. There are a few of us that have been in to vinyl for a long time and others who have bought the T-shirt as new to the format.
TonyRPH said:
This is a first for me. I don't believe I've ever known anyone to recommend a BSR ceramic cartridge!
I worked in the HiFi repair industry for many years (and still dabble) - but apart from perhaps the MA you mentioned previously - I can't see (hear??) any ceramic cartridge sounding - or tracking - better than any budget magnetic cartridge (AT 91/95 springs to mind here).
When I was a kid, the family record player (a Blaupunkt system with a BSR turntable and ceramic cart) was easily trounced by a BSR MP60 + Goldring G800 magnetic cart. which was my own first system (never mind the rumble lol).
Your obviously not as old as me the C1 was well regarded and was hailed as probably the first modest priced, but decent ceramic cartridge.
I worked in the HiFi repair industry for many years (and still dabble) - but apart from perhaps the MA you mentioned previously - I can't see (hear??) any ceramic cartridge sounding - or tracking - better than any budget magnetic cartridge (AT 91/95 springs to mind here).
When I was a kid, the family record player (a Blaupunkt system with a BSR turntable and ceramic cart) was easily trounced by a BSR MP60 + Goldring G800 magnetic cart. which was my own first system (never mind the rumble lol).
Your obviously not as old as me the C1 was well regarded and was hailed as probably the first modest priced, but decent ceramic cartridge.
bcr5784 said:
TonyRPH said:
This is a first for me. I don't believe I've ever known anyone to recommend a BSR ceramic cartridge!
I worked in the HiFi repair industry for many years (and still dabble) - but apart from perhaps the MA you mentioned previously - I can't see (hear??) any ceramic cartridge sounding - or tracking - better than any budget magnetic cartridge (AT 91/95 springs to mind here).
When I was a kid, the family record player (a Blaupunkt system with a BSR turntable and ceramic cart) was easily trounced by a BSR MP60 + Goldring G800 magnetic cart. which was my own first system (never mind the rumble lol).
Your obviously not as old as me the C1 was well regarded and was hailed as probably the first modest priced, but decent ceramic cartridge.I worked in the HiFi repair industry for many years (and still dabble) - but apart from perhaps the MA you mentioned previously - I can't see (hear??) any ceramic cartridge sounding - or tracking - better than any budget magnetic cartridge (AT 91/95 springs to mind here).
When I was a kid, the family record player (a Blaupunkt system with a BSR turntable and ceramic cart) was easily trounced by a BSR MP60 + Goldring G800 magnetic cart. which was my own first system (never mind the rumble lol).
TonyRPH said:
Must be some kind of fad lol.
A bit like the desire to own ancient old SP25 MK4's and other associated ancient Garrard tat.
I have actually used one fairly extensively with some (half) decent equipment and while I'm not going to suggest it was the second coming it certainly was good enough to do justice to the sort of bluetooth speakers considered.A bit like the desire to own ancient old SP25 MK4's and other associated ancient Garrard tat.
TonyRPH said:
Must be some kind of fad lol.
A bit like the desire to own ancient old SP25 MK4's and other associated ancient Garrard tat.
What's wrong with that? Service one and stick an AT-95E on it, and it turns in a pretty decent performance (and will still be spinning long after we're all dead and gone!).A bit like the desire to own ancient old SP25 MK4's and other associated ancient Garrard tat.
As to ceramics, my favourite is still the Decca DERAM. Even has the bonus that it works into an MM input (although it's a bit microphonic used like this)
Deranged Rover said:
What's wrong with that? Service one and stick an AT-95E on it, and it turns in a pretty decent performance (and will still be spinning long after we're all dead and gone!).
As to ceramics, my favourite is still the Decca DERAM. Even has the bonus that it works into an MM input (although it's a bit microphonic used like this)
I've had a couple of SP25s over the years. The arm is too short to maintain correct racking geometry.As to ceramics, my favourite is still the Decca DERAM. Even has the bonus that it works into an MM input (although it's a bit microphonic used like this)
And they rumble like crazy, no matter how many mats / modifications etc.
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