Best PVR picture
Discussion
I have a Sony A9 OLED TV which produces outstanding pictures (HD) - whether directly off air or recorded by the TV. Unfortunately the built in PVR of the TV is very flakey - losing series links and sometimes failing to record at all. It will only record one programme at a time - even though it has 4 tuners.
Unfortunately my external recorder - a Panasonic BWT 550 does not produce recordings of the same quality - even though I set it not to upscale the recordings and just allow the TV to do it's own thing.
Anyone discovered a PVR which produces the same sort of quality recordings as an OLED TV?
Unfortunately my external recorder - a Panasonic BWT 550 does not produce recordings of the same quality - even though I set it not to upscale the recordings and just allow the TV to do it's own thing.
Anyone discovered a PVR which produces the same sort of quality recordings as an OLED TV?
A lot of the stuff we record is old, and not noted for its picture quality.
But with a Humax satellite HDD recorder (about 6 years old) we don't sit there noticing poor pictures.
TV is about 3 years old, Sony, 4K.
Do you have a PC monitor you could try with your recorder?
A different HDMI lead?
But with a Humax satellite HDD recorder (about 6 years old) we don't sit there noticing poor pictures.
TV is about 3 years old, Sony, 4K.
Do you have a PC monitor you could try with your recorder?
A different HDMI lead?
Road2Ruin said:
My Panasonic recorder is excellent. It has an HD tuner, so make sure yours does. Also you have to set the record quality on mine. I always set it to the highest. Uses a lot more disk space, but it works.
My recorder is a current model PWT 550 combined HD recorder and Blu-Ray player, so obviously it has an HD tuner. However even switching between the same channel (unrecorded) on TV and via Recorder there is a very noticeable difference in quality. I've also tried a BWT850 recorder - the current top of the range Panasonic unit and the same difference is noticeable.OutInTheShed said:
A lot of the stuff we record is old, and not noted for its picture quality.
But with a Humax satellite HDD recorder (about 6 years old) we don't sit there noticing poor pictures.
TV is about 3 years old, Sony, 4K.
Do you have a PC monitor you could try with your recorder?
A different HDMI lead?
I have a Premium 4k certified lead so I'm sure that isn't the issue. I never had an issue before I changed my previous Plasma TV for an OLED one and having got used to stunning picture quality I feel rather cheated when the box recordings don't match up. As it happens I do have a Humax satellite recorder in my office that I could try (the TV does satellite too with the same picture quality), so it might be worth a try.But with a Humax satellite HDD recorder (about 6 years old) we don't sit there noticing poor pictures.
TV is about 3 years old, Sony, 4K.
Do you have a PC monitor you could try with your recorder?
A different HDMI lead?
bcr5784 said:
My recorder is a current model PWT 550 combined HD recorder and Blu-Ray player, so obviously it has an HD tuner. However even switching between the same channel (unrecorded) on TV and via Recorder there is a very noticeable difference in quality. I've also tried a BWT850 recorder - the current top of the range Panasonic unit and the same difference is noticeable.
Is it possible to describe the 'quality' difference?Grainy?
Noisy?
Colour issues?
Motion problems?
It's not just some contrast/colour/brightness settings being carried over from the recorder and making the picture less 'impressive' as opposed to less 'accurate'?
In the recorder's settings menu, does it show (aerial/RF) signal strength and 'quality'?
How does the aerial feed each box?
If the TV has multiple HDMI inputs, I'd try a different one.
This may be a silly suggestion, when was the recorder last reset for a channel scan? Is it conceivably not tuning into the same transmission?
No weak/strong signal switch or setting?
OutInTheShed said:
Is it possible to describe the 'quality' difference?
Grainy?
Noisy?
Colour issues?
Motion problems?
It's not just some contrast/colour/brightness settings being carried over from the recorder and making the picture less 'impressive' as opposed to less 'accurate'?
In the recorder's settings menu, does it show (aerial/RF) signal strength and 'quality'?
How does the aerial feed each box?
If the TV has multiple HDMI inputs, I'd try a different one.
This may be a silly suggestion, when was the recorder last reset for a channel scan? Is it conceivably not tuning into the same transmission?
No weak/strong signal switch or setting?
Thanks for your suggestions. On the same channel and a good signal - the aerial goes into the recorder first. The different is mainly resolution though the TV has more natural colours too. HDMI input makes no difference. Going to try a BT box later this week.Grainy?
Noisy?
Colour issues?
Motion problems?
It's not just some contrast/colour/brightness settings being carried over from the recorder and making the picture less 'impressive' as opposed to less 'accurate'?
In the recorder's settings menu, does it show (aerial/RF) signal strength and 'quality'?
How does the aerial feed each box?
If the TV has multiple HDMI inputs, I'd try a different one.
This may be a silly suggestion, when was the recorder last reset for a channel scan? Is it conceivably not tuning into the same transmission?
No weak/strong signal switch or setting?
bcr5784 said:
OutInTheShed said:
Is it possible to describe the 'quality' difference?
Grainy?
Noisy?
Colour issues?
Motion problems?
It's not just some contrast/colour/brightness settings being carried over from the recorder and making the picture less 'impressive' as opposed to less 'accurate'?
In the recorder's settings menu, does it show (aerial/RF) signal strength and 'quality'?
How does the aerial feed each box?
If the TV has multiple HDMI inputs, I'd try a different one.
This may be a silly suggestion, when was the recorder last reset for a channel scan? Is it conceivably not tuning into the same transmission?
No weak/strong signal switch or setting?
Thanks for your suggestions. On the same channel and a good signal - the aerial goes into the recorder first. The different is mainly resolution though the TV has more natural colours too. HDMI input makes no difference. Going to try a BT box later this week.Grainy?
Noisy?
Colour issues?
Motion problems?
It's not just some contrast/colour/brightness settings being carried over from the recorder and making the picture less 'impressive' as opposed to less 'accurate'?
In the recorder's settings menu, does it show (aerial/RF) signal strength and 'quality'?
How does the aerial feed each box?
If the TV has multiple HDMI inputs, I'd try a different one.
This may be a silly suggestion, when was the recorder last reset for a channel scan? Is it conceivably not tuning into the same transmission?
No weak/strong signal switch or setting?
dickymint said:
If it is a "box" issue my money is on the BT box coming up trumps.
I don't understand why the box should degrade the picture more with the new TV than the old.I'm aware HDMI contains two-way data, is the TV controlling what the recorder sends out?
We have no issues with a Humax box driving a 4k Sony, but TBH, we mostly watch dramas for the plot and aren't that fussy about a picture that reveals the actresses' wrinkles and spots. Back in the day, I peered at a PAL testcard or two, but drifted out of the Broadcast industry.
OutInTheShed said:
dickymint said:
If it is a "box" issue my money is on the BT box coming up trumps.
I don't understand why the box should degrade the picture more with the new TV than the old.I'm aware HDMI contains two-way data, is the TV controlling what the recorder sends out?
We have no issues with a Humax box driving a 4k Sony, but TBH, we mostly watch dramas for the plot and aren't that fussy about a picture that reveals the actresses' wrinkles and spots. Back in the day, I peered at a PAL testcard or two, but drifted out of the Broadcast industry.
Humax make BT boxes and they are highly regarded and well worth a try to rule it out.I'm not familiar with your TV, but mine all have separate settings for Internal tuner picture compared to those from the HDMI input(s). Contrast, brightness, colour temp, sharpness etc and also some scaling options that mean the picture is over-scanned if not set to 'OFF' (ie softens the picture). The there is the option of sending the picture out using RGB or YCbCr (and 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 in the later case); they can all make a difference to how the picture looks.
In my own setup I find that my Humax PVR gives a better picture via HDMI because I have it connected via a stand alone video processor (meant for my projector, but I can split the output, so may as well benefit from it's better calibration options). However, this is a 1080p TV and PVR, though my previous comments still apply regarding the picture settings (or at the very least worth a good look).
In my own setup I find that my Humax PVR gives a better picture via HDMI because I have it connected via a stand alone video processor (meant for my projector, but I can split the output, so may as well benefit from it's better calibration options). However, this is a 1080p TV and PVR, though my previous comments still apply regarding the picture settings (or at the very least worth a good look).
I've certainly seen some Freeview PVRs with less than sparkling pictures. However, I'd expect that from 2nd and 3rd tier brands rather than Panasonic. Their Blu-ray and UHD players have been some of the best around without blowing mad money on Oppo.
TVs often have individual picture memories per input, and sometimes even the option for a different set-up at each resolution. How are the picture settings for the HDMI input compared to the Digital Tuner input?
The Freeview signal itself doesn't tend to vary in quality depending on signal level. Once there's sufficient signal then that's as good as it will get. If the signal is too low or too high then you'll see pixellation.
TVs often have individual picture memories per input, and sometimes even the option for a different set-up at each resolution. How are the picture settings for the HDMI input compared to the Digital Tuner input?
The Freeview signal itself doesn't tend to vary in quality depending on signal level. Once there's sufficient signal then that's as good as it will get. If the signal is too low or too high then you'll see pixellation.
bcr5784 said:
Thanks for all your comments. I certainly can do something with colour of the recorder input - but the main issue is resolution. I would like to hear from someone who has an OLED TV to see if they have the same issue.
What do you mean by 'resolution', do you mean the image sharpness/clarity?The Panasonic BWT 550 can upscale to 4K and output that into your Sony, however your Sony may do a better job of upscaling, so it might be better to set the Panasonic BWT 550 to output at (say) 1080p or even 'source direct' if it has such a setting (then the Sony will upscale everything). Mine and LucidAV's comments about the per input/per resolution settings need looking into as well such as the overscan setting I mentioned as this could make the PVR picture look softer if set to 'ON'. There may also be settings in the PVR that alter the picture quality, so I would check those and set them to neutral settings.
The picture with the PVR showing a live feed of say BBC 1 HD should look near enough the same as the same channel directly from your TV: This isn't specific to it being an OLED, though I appreciate you want feedback from other OLED owners I've set up many TVs and projectors over the years and do my own calibration, so I have a bit of an idea about these things. If the playback of recordings is worse than the live feed of a given channel, then that's purely down to setting it to record at full/max quality. I don't have any option with my Humax, but recordings look exactly the same as live TV even on my projector screen, let alone on a smaller TV screen.
Hope you manage to sort it out.
OldSkoolRS said:
What do you mean by 'resolution', do you mean the image sharpness/clarity?
The Panasonic BWT 550 can upscale to 4K and output that into your Sony, however your Sony may do a better job of upscaling, so it might be better to set the Panasonic BWT 550 to output at (say) 1080p or even 'source direct' if it has such a setting (then the Sony will upscale everything). Mine and LucidAV's comments about the per input/per resolution settings need looking into as well such as the overscan setting I mentioned as this could make the PVR picture look softer if set to 'ON'. There may also be settings in the PVR that alter the picture quality, so I would check those and set them to neutral settings.
The picture with the PVR showing a live feed of say BBC 1 HD should look near enough the same as the same channel directly from your TV: This isn't specific to it being an OLED, though I appreciate you want feedback from other OLED owners I've set up many TVs and projectors over the years and do my own calibration, so I have a bit of an idea about these things. If the playback of recordings is worse than the live feed of a given channel, then that's purely down to setting it to record at full/max quality. I don't have any option with my Humax, but recordings look exactly the same as live TV even on my projector screen, let alone on a smaller TV screen.
Hope you manage to sort it out.
Yes I mean perceived sharpness - which may be contrast related - the picture is just a bit softer. Not bad by normal standards but not as punchy and crisp as the TV can produce.The Panasonic BWT 550 can upscale to 4K and output that into your Sony, however your Sony may do a better job of upscaling, so it might be better to set the Panasonic BWT 550 to output at (say) 1080p or even 'source direct' if it has such a setting (then the Sony will upscale everything). Mine and LucidAV's comments about the per input/per resolution settings need looking into as well such as the overscan setting I mentioned as this could make the PVR picture look softer if set to 'ON'. There may also be settings in the PVR that alter the picture quality, so I would check those and set them to neutral settings.
The picture with the PVR showing a live feed of say BBC 1 HD should look near enough the same as the same channel directly from your TV: This isn't specific to it being an OLED, though I appreciate you want feedback from other OLED owners I've set up many TVs and projectors over the years and do my own calibration, so I have a bit of an idea about these things. If the playback of recordings is worse than the live feed of a given channel, then that's purely down to setting it to record at full/max quality. I don't have any option with my Humax, but recordings look exactly the same as live TV even on my projector screen, let alone on a smaller TV screen.
Hope you manage to sort it out.
I have set the recorder to output in native resolution (it was almost the first thing I did). As I said above I have done the comparison with live broadcast TV as well as recordings.
Regarding overscan the TV is set to the default setting of auto, though it can be manually overridden - but not on per source basis. There is no adjustment in the recorder.
On-line reviews of recorders do often highlight difference in picture quality between the different brands - so I'm not surprized that a high end TV might show them. I shall be getting a BT box tomorrow so I may have some more info then.
I would add that the sound on the recorder isn't as good as the TV's (fed through decent hifi system) either
The 'punch' of the picture could be down to setting such as Gamma: Set too low and it can make the image look a bit washed out, too high and it tends to make the picture have more overall contrast, but can also appear a bit darker, so needs to be compensated with backlight (or whatever OLED has) settings.
The effect of overscan could be checked using BBC News HD and compare the text in the red box between direct from the TV and from the PVR: If the words are closer to the edge of the screen then the image is being over-scanned, therefore extra scaling and making it look softer. Might not be the issue, but it's something I always check when setting up any display as it wastes sharpness. I wouldn't trust 'auto' personally, though I wonder if we are talking about the same thing as I don't mean 'aspect' which can sometimes be labeled 'auto'.
You mention setting the PVR to native; perhaps it might also be worth comparing using the PVR to upscale any content, on the off chance it is better than the upscaling in the Sony. Doesn't cost anything and should be easy to check if it helps solve your issue. I see a big difference using my Lumagen to upscale content compared to my disc player or PVR on SD channels, or to my TV or projector upscaling, so it's always worth trying out the various options to see which device does the job best. While I'd expect the Lumagen to be better than anything else, some early firmware versions meant that 1080i upscaling was done better in the player for example, so you can't just assume due to the price of equipment.
I'm intrigued to hear how the BT box works out now.
The effect of overscan could be checked using BBC News HD and compare the text in the red box between direct from the TV and from the PVR: If the words are closer to the edge of the screen then the image is being over-scanned, therefore extra scaling and making it look softer. Might not be the issue, but it's something I always check when setting up any display as it wastes sharpness. I wouldn't trust 'auto' personally, though I wonder if we are talking about the same thing as I don't mean 'aspect' which can sometimes be labeled 'auto'.
You mention setting the PVR to native; perhaps it might also be worth comparing using the PVR to upscale any content, on the off chance it is better than the upscaling in the Sony. Doesn't cost anything and should be easy to check if it helps solve your issue. I see a big difference using my Lumagen to upscale content compared to my disc player or PVR on SD channels, or to my TV or projector upscaling, so it's always worth trying out the various options to see which device does the job best. While I'd expect the Lumagen to be better than anything else, some early firmware versions meant that 1080i upscaling was done better in the player for example, so you can't just assume due to the price of equipment.
I'm intrigued to hear how the BT box works out now.
OldSkoolRS said:
The 'punch' of the picture could be down to setting such as Gamma: Set too low and it can make the image look a bit washed out, too high and it tends to make the picture have more overall contrast, but can also appear a bit darker, so needs to be compensated with backlight (or whatever OLED has) settings.
The effect of overscan could be checked using BBC News HD and compare the text in the red box between direct from the TV and from the PVR: If the words are closer to the edge of the screen then the image is being over-scanned, therefore extra scaling and making it look softer. Might not be the issue, but it's something I always check when setting up any display as it wastes sharpness. I wouldn't trust 'auto' personally, though I wonder if we are talking about the same thing as I don't mean 'aspect' which can sometimes be labeled 'auto'.
You mention setting the PVR to native; perhaps it might also be worth comparing using the PVR to upscale any content, on the off chance it is better than the upscaling in the Sony. Doesn't cost anything and should be easy to check if it helps solve your issue. I see a big difference using my Lumagen to upscale content compared to my disc player or PVR on SD channels, or to my TV or projector upscaling, so it's always worth trying out the various options to see which device does the job best. While I'd expect the Lumagen to be better than anything else, some early firmware versions meant that 1080i upscaling was done better in the player for example, so you can't just assume due to the price of equipment.
I'm intrigued to hear how the BT box works out now.
Thanks for all that. OLEDs don't have backlight, it is, I believe why they are so good at getting detail in dark shots. Re Gamma it's not adjustable in the recorder and the picture is stunning on the TV. The A9 is one of the "master" series TVs individually set up by hand in the factory. It's what you are paying for (but of course that doesn't necessarily mean they got it right. Haven't done the comparison on SD channels upscaling, but when I left the recorder resolution on auto (when I assume it would upscale to 4k) the results were certainly no better - that's why I set it to output native resolution. The effect of overscan could be checked using BBC News HD and compare the text in the red box between direct from the TV and from the PVR: If the words are closer to the edge of the screen then the image is being over-scanned, therefore extra scaling and making it look softer. Might not be the issue, but it's something I always check when setting up any display as it wastes sharpness. I wouldn't trust 'auto' personally, though I wonder if we are talking about the same thing as I don't mean 'aspect' which can sometimes be labeled 'auto'.
You mention setting the PVR to native; perhaps it might also be worth comparing using the PVR to upscale any content, on the off chance it is better than the upscaling in the Sony. Doesn't cost anything and should be easy to check if it helps solve your issue. I see a big difference using my Lumagen to upscale content compared to my disc player or PVR on SD channels, or to my TV or projector upscaling, so it's always worth trying out the various options to see which device does the job best. While I'd expect the Lumagen to be better than anything else, some early firmware versions meant that 1080i upscaling was done better in the player for example, so you can't just assume due to the price of equipment.
I'm intrigued to hear how the BT box works out now.
I realise OLEDs don't have backlight, though I thought they had something that kicked in a brighter image for example when viewing HDR content.
The gamma adjustment would be in the TV's menu when it is set to HDMI input. You may have to select a 'user' mode rather than 'sports' 'movie' 'dynamic', etc though (and for comparison what picture settings the TV is on when using the built in tuner. The set should allow different settings, though I'd suspect that most would likely need to be set similar anyway since you're not doing a full on calibration it's the best you could hope for.
I would try to set the brightness level correctly for the PVR input: This sets the black level for that source and could be set a little too high making the image look washed out. It might not need the same setting as for the built in tuner though and short of using a test pattern it's harder to do accurately. Equaly setting it too low can just clip the blacks and lose shadow detail, but a click or two to see if it improves things won't hurt.
I do think it's a set up issue somewhere, but trying to work it out remotely is harder: Once calibrated I've found that there is more similarity between sources on my projector (3 metre wide screen) than differences: I've compared my Oppo BluRay and my fairly basic Sony UHD player for example and with both set the same and on source direct (Lumagen upscaling to 4K in the case of 1080p discs). What hifi would no doubt write some piffle about 'inky blacks' and 'razor sharp images' about the Oppo, but I don't see that and I'm a picky bugger.
The gamma adjustment would be in the TV's menu when it is set to HDMI input. You may have to select a 'user' mode rather than 'sports' 'movie' 'dynamic', etc though (and for comparison what picture settings the TV is on when using the built in tuner. The set should allow different settings, though I'd suspect that most would likely need to be set similar anyway since you're not doing a full on calibration it's the best you could hope for.
I would try to set the brightness level correctly for the PVR input: This sets the black level for that source and could be set a little too high making the image look washed out. It might not need the same setting as for the built in tuner though and short of using a test pattern it's harder to do accurately. Equaly setting it too low can just clip the blacks and lose shadow detail, but a click or two to see if it improves things won't hurt.
I do think it's a set up issue somewhere, but trying to work it out remotely is harder: Once calibrated I've found that there is more similarity between sources on my projector (3 metre wide screen) than differences: I've compared my Oppo BluRay and my fairly basic Sony UHD player for example and with both set the same and on source direct (Lumagen upscaling to 4K in the case of 1080p discs). What hifi would no doubt write some piffle about 'inky blacks' and 'razor sharp images' about the Oppo, but I don't see that and I'm a picky bugger.
[quote=OldSkoolRS. What hifi would no doubt write some piffle about 'inky blacks' and 'razor sharp images' about the Oppo, but I don't see that and I'm a picky bugger.
[/quote]
Accept what you imply about tv reviews have a bit in common with audiophile BS - but there is no doubt in my mind that there is a very noticeable step up to OLED TVs from previous technologies - visitors (not to mention my OH) comment unprompted about the TV quality. It is reminds me of the step plasma made over LCD in the past.
[/quote]
Accept what you imply about tv reviews have a bit in common with audiophile BS - but there is no doubt in my mind that there is a very noticeable step up to OLED TVs from previous technologies - visitors (not to mention my OH) comment unprompted about the TV quality. It is reminds me of the step plasma made over LCD in the past.
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