Taking an expensive punt on used hi-fi..?

[Funk]

After a recent upgrade of a couple of bits (Kef Ref 3.2s, Topping D90SE) I've turned my thoughts to amplification. Currently running an XTZ Class A100 D3 which, in all fairness, sounds really rather good - certainly better than even its new price-point suggests it should; it was €799 new, I think. I bought it used for £495 a few years ago.

A rather lovely Marantz amp has come up for sale - a limited edition PM KI Ruby - on a forum I'm on but it's pricey and I'd be taking a massive punt on it being a significant upgrade. I'm almost certain it would be (it was a £3.5k amp new) but spending nearly £2k on something I've never heard is a bit of a leap for me. The other concern it's it's been lurking for sale for a little while so if I buy it and decide it's not for me, it might not be that easy to sell on either...

I'm not quite sure whether I want to be talked into or out of it really. All the reviews I've read are broadly very good but I can't help thinking that for something at this level I'd really prefer to hear it before putting my hand in my pocket...

The other consideration is to knock some sense into myself as I'm very pleased with the way my setup sounds at the moment so perhaps just stick with that and enjoy the music..?

[randlemarcus]

Is it in a Red List country? If not, go and listen to it, bearing in mind the likely impact of the other components. You're not going to get a listen to it in your room with your other bits, from a private sale without putting your hand in your pocket. Maybe ask the seller for an agreed take back fee if you can work out the inevitable trust issues?

[Funk]

It's roughly a 600-mile round trip away from me. Other than being able to hear it working (which I've no doubt it is) as you say it wouldn't tell me much about what it's likely to sound like in my setup. I'd probably be asking the seller to ship to me rather than collecting anyway if I were to go for it.

It just got me thinking about where my 'punt comfort limit' is - if it were £1k would I be happier taking a chance on it? Probably.

[anonymous-user]

You need to have a listen before parting with £2k, as it already seems to be hanging around either get a better deal or be prepared to take a hit if you don't like it.

The fact you are asking questions I think says it has already passed your comfort zone and you should look elsewhere.

[stevoknevo]

Funk said:

After a recent upgrade of a couple of bits (Kef Ref 3.2s, Topping D90SE) I've turned my thoughts to amplification. Currently running an XTZ Class A100 D3 which, in all fairness, sounds really rather good - certainly better than even its new price-point suggests it should; it was €799 new, I think. I bought it used for £495 a few years ago.

A rather lovely Marantz amp has come up for sale - a limited edition PM KI Ruby - on a forum I'm on but it's pricey and I'd be taking a massive punt on it being a significant upgrade. I'm almost certain it would be (it was a £3.5k amp new) but spending nearly £2k on something I've never heard is a bit of a leap for me. The other concern it's it's been lurking for sale for a little while so if I buy it and decide it's not for me, it might not be that easy to sell on either...

I'm not quite sure whether I want to be talked into or out of it really. All the reviews I've read are broadly very good but I can't help thinking that for something at this level I'd really prefer to hear it before putting my hand in my pocket...

The other consideration is to knock some sense into myself as I'm very pleased with the way my setup sounds at the moment so perhaps just stick with that and enjoy the music..?

Saw that ad the other day, nice bit of kit - I'd have no doubt you'd be able to shift it on but might need to wait for a buyer on the usual forums (just looked at the advert again and someone is showing interest...)
What's your source for the Topping and is that your only source? If you've only got digital sources via the Topping would something similar to this be a better option with the Topping acting as pre-amp instead of paying for a fancy phono stage you won't need? https://www.avforums.com/threads/purifi-2-channel-...

There's a brand new unopened Marantz series 30 on AVF for almost £600 off current retail - similar price to the KI but full warranty.
I think I'd definitely want to hear what I was interested in before committing at that price range, also I think the Japanese stuff is up against stiff competition in the used market at that price bracket also - Naim Supernait 2, Lyngdorf 2170 with it's brilliant room correction system, plus a lot of non-mainstream stuff, but again if you're solely using a digital front-end you're likely paying for stuff you don't need/won't use?

[Funk]

stevoknevo said:

Saw that ad the other day, nice bit of kit - I'd have no doubt you'd be able to shift it on but might need to wait for a buyer on the usual forums (just looked at the advert again and someone is showing interest...)
What's your source for the Topping and is that your only source? If you've only got digital sources via the Topping would something similar to this be a better option with the Topping acting as pre-amp instead of paying for a fancy phono stage you won't need? https://www.avforums.com/threads/purifi-2-channel-...

There's a brand new unopened Marantz series 30 on AVF for almost £600 off current retail - similar price to the KI but full warranty.
I think I'd definitely want to hear what I was interested in before committing at that price range, also I think the Japanese stuff is up against stiff competition in the used market at that price bracket also - Naim Supernait 2, Lyngdorf 2170 with it's brilliant room correction system, plus a lot of non-mainstream stuff, but again if you're solely using a digital front-end you're likely paying for stuff you don't need/won't use?

Some really good points there actually. I am all-digital; the Topping is fed from my PC running MusicBee stuffed with FLACs. When I do play my XBox I have an optical feed out from the TV for the audio. So using the D90SE as a pre is a good shout - I would be fine without an integrated. The only consideration with that it is it rules out easy inclusion of any other non-digital sources in future as it would require the re-inclusion of a pre. I guess one man's 'paying for features you won't use' is another man's 'future options and flexibilty'...

I've not worked out what I'm doing for headphones either at the moment - I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s and nothing to plug them in to at the mo and the Marantz would solve that issue...

The Marantz is the first one that's caught my eye for a while - in a funny way it'd be helpful if it does go..!

I've just had a look at the Edition 30 on AVF - very lovely-looking bit of kit too although I personally prefer the KI Ruby. Is it AVF where they insist all negotiations are done in-thread or is that 'Wam? Can never remember.

Edit: yes, it's AVF where you have to do public negotiation. A very strange rule.

Edited by Funk on Sunday 2nd January 01:44

[stevoknevo]

Funk said:

Some really good points there actually. I am all-digital; the Topping is fed from my PC running MusicBee stuffed with FLACs. When I do play my XBox I have an optical feed out from the TV for the audio. So using the D90SE as a pre is a good shout - I would be fine without an integrated. The only consideration with that it is it rules out easy inclusion of any other non-digital sources in future as it would require the re-inclusion of a pre. I guess one man's 'paying for features you won't use' is another man's 'future options and flexibilty'...

I've not worked out what I'm doing for headphones either at the moment - I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s and nothing to plug them in to at the mo and the Marantz would solve that issue...

The Marantz is the first one that's caught my eye for a while - in a funny way it'd be helpful if it does go..!

I've just had a look at the Edition 30 on AVF - very lovely-looking bit of kit too although I personally prefer the KI Ruby. Is it AVF where they insist all negotiations are done in-thread or is that 'Wam? Can never remember.

Edit: yes, it's AVF where you have to do public negotiation. A very strange rule.

Edited by Funk on Sunday 2nd January 01:44

Aye its AVF - I'm used to it as a rule and can understand why they insist on it for transparency in all trades, but it seems to promote people making properly lowball offers, the seller getting offended at such a low offer, and the offerer getting offended it's not being accepted and pointing to previous sales either on AVF or ebay that's in worse condition/no warranty/unboxed without accessories etc Definitely a buyers market on AVF, regularly see stuff going below market value (Pixel 6 for £425/Pixel 6 Pro for £600ish weeks after launch as an example)

Thought I'd mention the power amp route as it's something I'm considering and using my dac as a pre as I'm never going to use analogue sources in future - the supplied Topping remote control is utter garbage though and not something I want to use long term so I keep coming back to integrateds - still looking as nothing has really caught my eye yet.
The model 30 went for £1600 last night, the KI Ruby is still for sale though...

Edit - and now £100 price drop.

Edited by stevoknevo on Monday 3rd January 12:34

[T1547]

I’ve taken many similar punts on hifi gear in the past (similar value/unheard) - I try to work on the basis of making an offer that means if I didn’t like it and had to sell I wouldn’t make too much of a loss (say no more than 10%).

To be honest I’ve never had anything that I didn’t really like and needed to sell straight away, but sometimes it has spurred me on to change other parts of my system to better match the new purchase. I find that all part of the fun really, trying different things and is sort of the pay off (or compromise) for buying used at used prices.

So I’d say make an offer and go for it!

(Sorry )

[BlimeyCharlie]

I have a similar dilemma (correct me if I'm wrong) which is want versus need.

I've seen some nice vintage hi-fi equipment come up for sale an hour from where I live. I don't need it but it looks too good to miss.

I'm working in that area in a week's time so may take a look then.

I wouldn't have anything like that posted/shipped ever, especially the value you are talking about.

[Funk]

Stevoknevo's comment sent me investigating Lyngdorf; there's a 2170 for sale about 20 mins up the road from me. I'm just doing a bit of learning about them, I'm intrigued by the RoomPerfect tech - it seems very impressive. Might give the guy a call, he's asking just over £2k for it which is a little more than I was thinking but he's had it up for sale for quite a while so he might be willing to do a deal.

As per the KI Ruby though it shows that the further up you go in value, the harder it can be to shift stuff on too. There was a pair of Titan 707s up for sale on PFM a while back - nearly new, a couple of months old. £15k retail. Guy was asking £10.5k, I think they went for under £9k in the end and it took a while. Assuming he didn't pay retail for them, that's still a massive hit to take in 8 weeks. Can't be many people in the market for that sort of gear.

[T1547]

You've got to have really gone wrong to buy new at £15k (or possible discount) and then decide 2 months down the line you don't like them (unless finances dictate a forced sale of course, but assuming that's not the case). If buying new you have every opportunity and the right IMO to demand taking up dealer's time demo'ing (multiple times if need be), trialling at home with your own system, asking questions, comparing etc before taking the plunge.

Buying used of course you forego this option really (unless you don't mind taking up dealers time demo'ing without intention of buying form them, which always seems to me not a very nice thing to do) so you are taking a punt at a reduced price. I think up to £2-3k used value as long as you stay relatively mainstream with your choices of equipment you're unlikely to lose your shirt on a purchase.

[Funk]

I'm gonna get my Celestion A3s up for sale I think, that'll help with man-maths...

[stevoknevo]

Funk said:

Stevoknevo's comment sent me investigating Lyngdorf; there's a 2170 for sale about 20 mins up the road from me. I'm just doing a bit of learning about them, I'm intrigued by the RoomPerfect tech - it seems very impressive. Might give the guy a call, he's asking just over £2k for it which is a little more than I was thinking but he's had it up for sale for quite a while so he might be willing to do a deal.

As per the KI Ruby though it shows that the further up you go in value, the harder it can be to shift stuff on too. There was a pair of Titan 707s up for sale on PFM a while back - nearly new, a couple of months old. £15k retail. Guy was asking £10.5k, I think they went for under £9k in the end and it took a while. Assuming he didn't pay retail for them, that's still a massive hit to take in 8 weeks. Can't be many people in the market for that sort of gear.

AudioVisualOnline had a 2170 a couple of months ago for £1880, certain it's gone but their site is down currently - if I had £2k to buy an amp currently it'd be a 2170; think people are a bit turned off because it's not a current model but from what I've read, Lyngdorf have good after sales support for repairs. The prices vary on what add on boards have been fitted - I wouldn't be interested in the HDMI or upgraded analogue inputs but they were £400+ options and dealer fit only I believe (worth checking in case they can be easily removed/sold on)
Or there's the older TACT/Lyngdorf 220 - 200w, Room Perfect and half the price of a 2170
https://www.hifi-forsale.co.uk/mobile/moreinfo-liv...

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/lyngdorf...

I've got an older Anthem receiver with ARC room compensation and it does wonders in my room, especially with the bass, but it's gone faulty with severe channel drift - I'm sold on room compensation though, I've been looking at more lifestyle related stuff as my system is raspberry pi>DAC>amp>speakers, so something like a Bluesound Powernode, but the interim replacement cheapo Arcam A65 (bloody decent as it is for £80!) highlights how well the bass was controlled in my room previously that I don't want to be without it.

I looked at the 707 advert every time there was an update - you'd need a big room to get the best from them I think, and his wasn't really from the photos I don't think, some hit to take all the same. There's a guy in a football forum I'm on with 808s and he asked recently if any of us used a sub as he'd been back at the dealers and they were running them with subs and it sounded incredible - feckin things have got two 10" bass drivers per speaker and will do 20hz in room as it is!

ETA - the Marantz KI Ruby has gone.

Edited by stevoknevo on Friday 7th January 23:12

[Funk]

The Lyngdof I was looking at had recently been off for repair - perhaps there's a reason their after-sales has to be good if kit keeps needing to be sent off for repair...? Makes me wonder if they are known for reliability concerns... That one was an issue with volume control; interestingly it has all the modules including the HDMI, USB etc - none of which are particularly useful to me tbh. Looking around it seems you can have the modules added by sending off to Lyngdorf so presumably they can uninstall as well - I'd imagine there's coding to do to enable/disable inputs etc so it's not just a simple case of unplugging.

Re. the Ruby I was talking to the seller in case his other sale fell through but it all completed. I'm in no rush to change anything, I just have a bit of an itch to scratch!

[stevoknevo]

Funk said:

The Lyngdof I was looking at had recently been off for repair - perhaps there's a reason their after-sales has to be good if kit keeps needing to be sent off for repair...? Makes me wonder if they are known for reliability concerns... That one was an issue with volume control; interestingly it has all the modules including the HDMI, USB etc - none of which are particularly useful to me tbh. Looking around it seems you can have the modules added by sending off to Lyngdorf so presumably they can uninstall as well - I'd imagine there's coding to do to enable/disable inputs etc so it's not just a simple case of unplugging.

Re. the Ruby I was talking to the seller in case his other sale fell through but it all completed. I'm in no rush to change anything, I just have a bit of an itch to scratch!

I was more impressed that they repaired it outside of warranty and for free.

[Funk]

stevoknevo said:

I was more impressed that they repaired it outside of warranty and for free.

True, although they may not be do accommodating of a second owner..?

[OldSkoolRS]

Funk said:

True, although they may not be do accommodating of a second owner..?

That was always my worry with buying a used 2170 that I fancied at one point. I've been to Gecko (UK distributor of Lyngdorf-for now- a number of times) and I've heard of the volume control issue more than once, so I'm concerned it's a common fault. If it was a simple potentiometer I'd be able to repair it myself, but of course on modern hifi they don't tend to use anything so simple now.

Got to admit that Room perfect and Lyngdorf amps seemed very impressive, but I'd want some kind of warranty protection, even at 2K because I'm tight and wouldn't want to throw that amount of money away if it failed and they wouldn't repair it.

In that price range I'd probably consider a new Lyngdorf 1120, but it's lower powered (which might be a problem) and you can't add an external power amp unless you forgo being able to use subwoofers, which is part of the whole Lyngdorf ethos.

[Funk]

To be frank, that's my concern too.