More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t
Discussion
robbyd said:
Quite the opposite, I'd say. A manufacturer who considers the whole chain and does something about it...
These equipment also amplifies from DC to MHz so any old bellwire won't do it.
Why do you think car manufacturers develop cars with a particular tyre brand/compound in mind?
As an experiment, I once built a 100w amplifier with a full power bandwidth of 500kHz (getting it stable was fun).These equipment also amplifies from DC to MHz so any old bellwire won't do it.
Why do you think car manufacturers develop cars with a particular tyre brand/compound in mind?
Edited by robbyd on Saturday 26th January 19:28
But after several trials with the same design running with this wide bandwidth, and then deliberately curtailed to around 40kHz made no difference to the sound.
Even limiting it to 25kHz made no difference.
So...
I can see that an amplifier capable of bandwidths extending into the mHz region will need boutique cables just to keep it stable.
There is absolutely no reason to have such a wide bandwidth - and this has been shown to be so with designs from Chapter and others.
It's pure specmanship.
Now I await all the "but the harmonics will be stifled" protestations.
robbyd said:
So would you say that the CD sampling rate of 44.1 kHz was adequate? After all, we can't hear beyond 20k at absolute best. I suspect frequencies outside the accepted range of hearing contribute to what we do hear - isn't that what harmonics are all about?
Rather controversially, yes I do.A properly recorded, well mastered 16bit CD can sound as good as it gets IMHO.
The reason that 'hirez' recordings are becoming so popular, is because there is more effort being put into the mastering, and I strongly suspect this is a marketing ploy to lead the consumer away from CDs and 16bit.
Having said that, I have still heard lousy sounding 24bit recordings, so it's clearly equally possible to mess those up too.
I have ripped the sound track of various DVD sources, and converted them to 44.1/16 bit for playback in my CD player, and guess what?
They sound fantastic.
To me, this proves that the 16bit format has been abused by producers / studios / record companies (whoever).
And with downloads becoming ever more popular, my belief is that the above mentioned ^^^ have dangled the 24bit carrot well and truly.
custodian said:
Why does 16/44 up sampled to 24/192 sound better?
To me, it doesn't.To my ears, it takes on what I call a "HI FI" type sound - the treble takes on an unrealistic silky sheen.
I even experimented with non o/s DACs for a while - and went through a phase where I liked the sound in short listening sessions, but found it to be somewhat wearing after several CDs.
robbyd said:
My main source (99.9 %) is vinyl, so, fortunately I bypass these issues!
Back in 1990, I played a vinyl copy of Phil Collins' Face Value.Five minutes in, and the snap, crackle and pop agitated me so, that I removed the record from the turntable, and promptly snapped it across my knee (cutting myself in the process haha).
That was ultimately the end of the line for me with vinyl, and I concentrated on the digital side of my system after that.
I still have about 100 odd albums*, none of which have seen the light of day for years, especially after the theft of my turntable when I moved from SA to the UK in '96.
I did buy an old Rotel TT at a car boot sale a few years back, but it languishes in a store room unused, with a bunch of other vintage equipment.
- all reasonable offers accepted lol.
Mine is mostly streamed from a Logitech Squeezebox Duet (over ethernet for what that's worth!!!) controlled by web browser on my MacBook, or the SB app on my Android Tablet.
I retain a CD player for those times when I purchase a new CD* and want to listen to it immediately, and the occasional fling through my CD collection (still on display in the lounge).
Music is stored on a quad core AMD Phenom server which resides in a 27u rack in my garage, shared with a few other servers and a couple of UPS'.
This is how it gets in a family of geeks
I retain a CD player for those times when I purchase a new CD* and want to listen to it immediately, and the occasional fling through my CD collection (still on display in the lounge).
Music is stored on a quad core AMD Phenom server which resides in a 27u rack in my garage, shared with a few other servers and a couple of UPS'.
This is how it gets in a family of geeks
- There is a great 2nd hand CD store in Leeds, which I tend to frequent as they often produce some rarities.
Edited by TonyRPH on Saturday 26th January 21:32
But just because theory suggests that "xyz" is happening, doesn't necessarily mean that it always is...
ETA: I'm struggling to correlate the effects of ethernet jitter on streamed music.
If the effects are as bad as some would suggest, then a radio station streaming from the other side of the world would be unlistenable.
Sure, perhaps jitter does exist on the ethernet medium, but I suggest that it has *zero* effect on streaming audio data.
ETA: I'm struggling to correlate the effects of ethernet jitter on streamed music.
If the effects are as bad as some would suggest, then a radio station streaming from the other side of the world would be unlistenable.
Sure, perhaps jitter does exist on the ethernet medium, but I suggest that it has *zero* effect on streaming audio data.
Edited by TonyRPH on Sunday 27th January 10:17
Regarding the ethernet cables mentioned above - I did a bit of 'Googling' and found this
But wait...
I already have it with my 37p cables from Comms Express
It's the same old s
t all over again. 50m of bog standard ethernet cable running through a building, with 1m of $500 ethernet fly lead on each end making all the difference to the sound.
I await the day that one of these audiophile cable boutiques launches their own "perfect sound" router and switch.
Cisco, Brocade and HP will be shivering in the aisles...
theabsolutesound.com said:
Who would have thought Ethernet cables could make such a big sonic difference? AudioQuest compared its new Vodka Ethernet cable ($250/1 meter) against three other Ethernet cables and the results were dramatic. You don’t know how much you’re missing in terms of naturalness, detail, and focus until you replace your stock Ethernet cable with a good one like the Vodka. AudioQuest also offers Forest, Cinnamon, and Diamond Ethernet cables, too.
Taking Ethernet cabling even further, Synergistic Research demoed its “Active Ethernet Cable” with a router and hard drive sitting atop a Synergistic Tranquility Base. This active cable removes compression by integrating the ground and electrical grid, allowing the music to soar, with a more open, dynamic, and dimensional sound. The difference is not subtle.
I really must try one of those "Active ethernet cables" to see if I can finally get perfect, jitter free data transfer on my home network.Taking Ethernet cabling even further, Synergistic Research demoed its “Active Ethernet Cable” with a router and hard drive sitting atop a Synergistic Tranquility Base. This active cable removes compression by integrating the ground and electrical grid, allowing the music to soar, with a more open, dynamic, and dimensional sound. The difference is not subtle.
But wait...
I already have it with my 37p cables from Comms Express
It's the same old s
t all over again. 50m of bog standard ethernet cable running through a building, with 1m of $500 ethernet fly lead on each end making all the difference to the sound.I await the day that one of these audiophile cable boutiques launches their own "perfect sound" router and switch.
Cisco, Brocade and HP will be shivering in the aisles...
Globs said:
I knew it had to be somewhere 
http://web.archive.org/web/20051227043038/http://c...
They dissect a $9800 cable from Transparent Audio, to find a simple low pass filter in the magical plastic box.
One can just picture the ranks of earnest reviewers listening to this particular low pass filter, crying with rapture at the way it brings the music to life and salivating at the bullst they can write to excuse it's super-ripoff price for the suckers who might think they're serious.
Some great sleuthing there - nicely done. http://web.archive.org/web/20051227043038/http://c...
They dissect a $9800 cable from Transparent Audio, to find a simple low pass filter in the magical plastic box.
One can just picture the ranks of earnest reviewers listening to this particular low pass filter, crying with rapture at the way it brings the music to life and salivating at the bulls
t they can write to excuse it's super-ripoff price for the suckers who might think they're serious.custodian said:
I do wonder about the mentality of some people on this post.
Just a few comments:
<snip>
3. Pointed out that Transparent Cables have a somewhat dubious junction box: Then amazement when somebody finds a picture.
How many people wouldn't be amazed to see that a $9500 speaker cable has a £50* inductor / capacitor / resistor combination to tailor the sound?Just a few comments:
<snip>
3. Pointed out that Transparent Cables have a somewhat dubious junction box: Then amazement when somebody finds a picture.
- that's being generous.
custodian said:
4. Offered both a demo and a wager on the ability to differentiate particular mains (and other) cables. No takers from the cynics!
In my case, I'm simply too far away to participate.custodian said:
5. Reference on a blind test with severe testing limitations both on unknown system and on time to change cables: readership concludes a general truth from that.
The limitations were not that severe - however I do think that the outcome was quite conclusive.custodian said:
6. See another post where Honda are charging £13k each for upgraded front seats for one of their cars. Shall we have a thread on more automobile b***st?
Why not, if that's really the case?t?custodian said:
If folks choose hifi or cars with their wallets or their egos, then sure, they will get some of what they deserve.
Enough already!
David, I'm curious; do you have a vested interest in any cable companies by any chance?Enough already!
This question is not intended to offend - but you do seem to defend the cause with some enthusiasm.
kayc said:
I think this thread has turned it to a 'personality-bunfight with lots of techno-mumble being spouted.I agree with a lot of the comments made regarding outrageous claims from manafacturers that are ridiculous..however not all of them are which is why 'audiophiles' keep chasing for better sound/products..if it was that black or white it would be easy to dismiss any upgrade as bks..that is not the case though as cables do sound different and high price doesnt always mean better..as i have said previously the opposite end of the spectrum would be Nordost compared to Van den hul imo...if people cant hear the difference between the presentation of those 2 products they are deaf..in between such extremes there lie a huge amount of subtle variences..also as i said previously its not what a cable adds..its how little it affects the sound being produced by the system itself that makes a good cable.
Personally, I don't see it as a 'personality-bunfight'.ks..that is not the case though as cables do sound different and high price doesnt always mean better..as i have said previously the opposite end of the spectrum would be Nordost compared to Van den hul imo...if people cant hear the difference between the presentation of those 2 products they are deaf..in between such extremes there lie a huge amount of subtle variences..also as i said previously its not what a cable adds..its how little it affects the sound being produced by the system itself that makes a good cable.However, I think that audiophiles* (particularly the ones with deep pockets) continue to chase rainbows, based on over zealous reviews, by magazines / reviewers that at the end of the day have to make their daily bread, just like the rest of us.
If they have an audience willing to feed off their reviews (which in honesty are not always bs) then it's no small wonder that they endeavour to create interest in these products.
When I worked in the industry, I personally witnessed many people simply just looking to spend money on the next great piece of kit, regardless of cost - so long as a reviewer said it was good - they would buy it.
These people simply do not listen to the music - they listen to the kit.
As for reviews... I have seen reviewers contradict themselves between issues about a product.
I also remember when Cambridge released the Azur range - the 540/640 CD players and amps were praised in the press - however the lesser 340 amp + cd were completely overlooked at the time. (and as it happens, the 340 was actually a cracking amp - better than the 540/640 in many ways - but I digress...).
When that current Azur range was approaching it's end of life, and the new range was imminent - suddenly the 340 CD player was *the* best thing ever in one particular magazine. I guess this was in order to promote sales of excessive stock..
- I use the term loosely in order not to generalise too much!
Just as an aside to the cable discussion - digital cables specifically.
This afternoon, I was messing around with a few old CD players I have kicking around, that I'm planning to sell.
As a matter of interest, I took a look (with my 'scope) at the various waveforms from the digital output of the CD players, and then substituted various cables in between CD player direct to scope and CD player to DAC.
I also included my Squeezebox in these tests as a matter of interest - and interestingly enough, it had the purest waveform too.
I tried some fancy cable I bought a few years back, then a cable I made up myself from 50ohm* coax, and them some plaited hookup wire.
As expected, the waveform remained unchanged, and rock steady across all three cables I tried.
Sure, this doesn't measure jitter, but I suspect that if I had measured it (if I was able to!) - there would have been no difference.
I haven't bothered attempting to 'listen' to each cable - however past tests have shown there was no noticeable difference (as one would expect).
Perhaps my "tests" are too basic - I don't know for sure - but to my mind this leaves no doubt in my mind about digital cables at least.
This afternoon, I was messing around with a few old CD players I have kicking around, that I'm planning to sell.
As a matter of interest, I took a look (with my 'scope) at the various waveforms from the digital output of the CD players, and then substituted various cables in between CD player direct to scope and CD player to DAC.
I also included my Squeezebox in these tests as a matter of interest - and interestingly enough, it had the purest waveform too.
I tried some fancy cable I bought a few years back, then a cable I made up myself from 50ohm* coax, and them some plaited hookup wire.
As expected, the waveform remained unchanged, and rock steady across all three cables I tried.
Sure, this doesn't measure jitter, but I suspect that if I had measured it (if I was able to!) - there would have been no difference.
I haven't bothered attempting to 'listen' to each cable - however past tests have shown there was no noticeable difference (as one would expect).
Perhaps my "tests" are too basic - I don't know for sure - but to my mind this leaves no doubt in my mind about digital cables at least.
- I know it should be 75ohm, but it was all I had to hand at the time.
custodian said:
Main source Aurender s10
Digital processing DCS Scarlatti up sampler, clock and DAC
Preamp Ayre KXR
Amps Halcro DM88
Speakers Rockport Mira Grand
Power supply PurePower 2000+
Power distribution Siltech Octopus Signature, Vertex hirez block, Vertex hirez shunt
Power Cables Siltech Ruby Hill
Digital cables Siltech Signature
Analogue interconnect Siltech Royal Signature
System support Finite Elemente Master Ref with Cerabase
Room treatment various acoustic damping panels
Speaker cables Vertex Hirez
Digital processing DCS Scarlatti up sampler, clock and DAC
Preamp Ayre KXR
Amps Halcro DM88
Speakers Rockport Mira Grand
Power supply PurePower 2000+
Power distribution Siltech Octopus Signature, Vertex hirez block, Vertex hirez shunt
Power Cables Siltech Ruby Hill
Digital cables Siltech Signature
Analogue interconnect Siltech Royal Signature
System support Finite Elemente Master Ref with Cerabase
Room treatment various acoustic damping panels
Speaker cables Vertex Hirez
Funk said:
<snip>
I do know that for the first time in many years, I've been listening to music rather than hi-fi which is great;
<snip>
And that sums up pretty much what I've been getting at on and off throughout the thread.I do know that for the first time in many years, I've been listening to music rather than hi-fi which is great;
<snip>
Somewhere way back, I even mentioned that I too found myself in constant pursuit of better sound, and lost sight of what listening to music is all about.
Now, I just sit back and enjoy the music.
Sure, every now and then I think 'ooh that bit of treble was a bit sharp' (or whatever) but it's rare and is soon forgotten.
Perhaps I'm just lucky to not have golden ears!!!
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