More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t
Discussion
BliarOut said:
custodian said:
BliarOut said:
Do you think that mains cable is the biggest loads of old codswallop you've seen yet? 
Do you mean apart from your posts?
Driller said:
Le TVR said:
While the statement is correct in isolation, they have overlooked the fact that the vast majority of domestic electronics is powered by Switchmode Powersupplies (SMPS). These are great from the cost/weight/efficiency point of view but from an interference pov they are a nightmare that require very considerable common and differential mode filtering to avoid passing RFI back into the mains. Yes there are some that are not that bad but there are also a lot that are 'Chinese'....
I can't claim to be as knowledgeable as you guys when it gets down to the PCB and components but wouldn't any half decent hifi amp power supply have the necessary electronics to deal with this? I usually fit a filtered IEC socket to the HiFi projects I build, although I can't say I've noticed any difference to the sound.
What it does do however, is suppress any mains borne interference such as (very) minor spikes on the mains caused by noisy appliances (usually poorly suppressed fridges) switching on.
But as pointed out in a previous post, due to stiffer regulations such interference is comparatively rare with modern appliances.
Driller said:
I can't claim to be as knowledgeable as you guys when it gets down to the PCB and components but wouldn't any half decent hifi amp power supply have the necessary electronics to deal with this?
Generally the equipment is designed by an audio engineer (probably then the build is outsourced to Asia) then they would take EMC approval for the completed product. Quite often by adding off the shelf filters. The 'performance check' used for EMC test will be quite simple, such as distortion will not be unacceptable with a 1kHz test tone. They would never do a full check of every parameter.Personal experience has seen other phenomena such as noise floor increases, intermod products and odd tonal effects.
There are some products out there that are starting to incorporate good filtering but they are few and far between.
So the best answer is 'more by luck than judgement'.
custodian said:
custodian said:
Globs, did you actually find a friend with a decent system to listen to yet or are you still spouting from a position of total deafness?
Still here for a demo and some detail technology review when you are ready.
Still here for a demo and some detail technology review when you are ready.
custodian said:
Not on that particular one, but already done it in double blind testing with Siltech cables and certain others, one in particular that made the system worse. You might try a very simple experiment to test one aspect (assuming you've got a half decent system that you listen to regularly). Get a large Ferrite ring and try with it placed on the mains cable and then without it. Just let us know if you can hear a difference.
It would be interesting to see what (if any) effect these ferrite rings have on the purity of the mains waveform.For a cable to make a device sound worse (however inconceivable this seems) would suggest that it is significantly distorting the mains waveform (if that could actually happen as such low currents) and hence causing some kind of non linearity in the PSU of the equipment under audition.
I'm also interested to know which types of ferrite were used in these experiments.
custodian said:
BliarOut said:
Would you like to do a blind audition on that mains cable for me?
Not on that particular one, but already done it in double blind testing with Siltech cables and certain others, one in particular that made the system worse. You might try a very simple experiment to test one aspect (assuming you've got a half decent system that you listen to regularly). Get a large Ferrite ring and try with it placed on the mains cable and then without it. Just let us know if you can hear a difference.
All my kit is on a UPS actually, not for audiophile reasons but because I lost a plasma during a lightning storm so I wanted to give the replacement a fighting chance.
My power provision kicks that box into a cocked hat
custodian said:
I used Versalab red rollers which are pretty heavy ferrite rings. Dont have any spec on exact composition. Found for some components it actually flattened the dynamics a bit suggesting some distortion of the mains waveform. Similar effect found with one type of expensive UK produced mains cable
David, my system is very humble compared with yours but in your view is a Rotel RC-1550 preamp and RB-1582 power driving a pair of B&W CM9s sufficient to hear some kind of difference with the above?Driller said:
custodian said:
I used Versalab red rollers which are pretty heavy ferrite rings. Dont have any spec on exact composition. Found for some components it actually flattened the dynamics a bit suggesting some distortion of the mains waveform. Similar effect found with one type of expensive UK produced mains cable
David, my system is very humble compared with yours but in your view is a Rotel RC-1550 preamp and RB-1582 power driving a pair of B&W CM9s sufficient to hear some kind of difference with the above?It's got 'floating pins' and everything...
custodian said:
Honestly I don't know. Main effects from most of the more esoteric tweaks seem to be about the soundstage, depth and width plus space round individual instruments. If your system gives you a good feel for those aspects then worth doing some tests.
Well I think it sounds great although I did hear a pair of active Meridians at £12000 a pair on the way out of the shop and they sounded even better 
custodian said:
BliarOut said:
I'll sell you a kettle cable for £1000 that's even better than the one above if you want...
It's got 'floating pins' and everything...
Thanks for your contribution. Very funny. It's got 'floating pins' and everything...
We've got circe 40v of float on UK mains it's the job of the PSU to do all the necessary smoothing.
You really expect me to take a £465 kettle lead seriously?
Here you go, exactly the same thing for £1.99
http://www.maplin.co.uk/ferrite-rings-and-beads-32...
Step away from the snake oil
custodian said:
BliarOut said:
Not really an answer, now is it. You could have just answered instead of insulting me...
Do you really think your sarcastic post deserved an answer. Had you taken the trouble to read my previous posts, I've made my views pretty clear. Why on earth would I want to discuss the relative merits of different cables with someone who, without ever listening to a decent system, has already made his mind up. That would always be a futile thing to do.I've heard lyrics on Pink Floyd's Time that simply aren't there on any other system, now if I could only remember what the kit was
custodian said:
Oh yes it can!
As per others on this thread - I would love to know the science behind this (besides the suggestions (and mechanics of) of ferrite suppressors above).Let us assume a level playing field - e.g. a good quality, relatively noiseless mains supply.
How could a mains lead possibly add more detail* to the sound?
I'm simply struggling to see how this can be, taking into account the dynamic range of music, the human ear and the kit playing back the music.
If there was *that* much noise on the mains supply, that it reduced the amount of audible detail (note: audible detail - not detail retrieved by the playback medium) then I suggest that any issues are more serious than just a noisy (mains) supply.
I also cannot believe that a mains lead will influence the level of detail retrieved from any playback medium, in case that's your next suggestion.
- I believe this is what you are claiming - do correct me if I'm wrong.
I will address your points by multi quoting (yeah look at me!!!)
I did once live within 'spitting distance' of a fairly powerful VHF and TV transmitter, and never noticed any stray pickup on any of my systems.
I did however once pickup a CB radio conversation via my turntable many years ago - but I suspect that was more likely a poorly calibrated aerial setup (causing RF 'splatter') than my particular system being prone to RF interference.
For a brief period, I was quite enthusiastic about CB radio, and had a standard 4w AM transmitter tweaked to produce around 6w - I used to operate this within close vicinity of my HiFi and never once experienced interference.
custodian said:
Tony, I don't claim any particular expertise in mains cables so my experience is largely practical. I certainly agree that on initial consideration, it is difficult to see 1 metre of fancy cable at the end of several hundred feet of bog standard cable having any effect.
Practical experience seems to show the following
1. Running the HiFi from a seperate 30 amp spur improves the overall sound quality.
This seems to be a popular one - however on a traditional UK ring main, I would have thought the supply would be just as good - although I do take on board the point that it is not shared by any other device.Practical experience seems to show the following
1. Running the HiFi from a seperate 30 amp spur improves the overall sound quality.
custodian said:
2. Some of the mains cables I have tried seem to constrain the sound, Isotek being a good example
I have yet to notice any difference with either mains cables, filtered sockets, or even a UPS!custodian said:
3. Many of the cables I tried didn't make a jot of difference
My exact experience!custodian said:
4. A rats nest of overlapping or coiled cables was always negative.
I can agree with this - by default I have always maintained good separation between individual signal leads, speaker leads and mains leads.custodian said:
5. Sometimes the routing of cables relative to the equipment made a surprisingly large difference.
Surely this ties in with point 4? I can't say I have ever noticed any difference moving a cable 2cm to the left / up / down etc..custodian said:
6. Use of additional ferrite rings was usually negative, making sound constrained
Around signal or speaker cables, I would expect some minor change - but not around mains cables.custodian said:
7 a small number of cables made a significant improvement to sound quality. These included Siltech, audience, Nordost and others. Improvement seen as improved space in the sound (maybe reduced mush levels)
I've not tried any of the above-mentioned brands so cannot comment. custodian said:
8. Surprisingly, some simple mechanical damping of mains cables could make a difference
Again, this is one that escapes me. The science of it is simply inconceivable.custodian said:
The observations were confirmed by several listeners, both anoraks and none anoraks!
How far any of this can be explained in terms of rf, emf or even mechanical pollution, I don't know.
I guess that depends on your individual locality - i.e. were the tests performed in close proximity to any kind of radio transmitter(s) etc.How far any of this can be explained in terms of rf, emf or even mechanical pollution, I don't know.
I did once live within 'spitting distance' of a fairly powerful VHF and TV transmitter, and never noticed any stray pickup on any of my systems.
I did however once pickup a CB radio conversation via my turntable many years ago - but I suspect that was more likely a poorly calibrated aerial setup (causing RF 'splatter') than my particular system being prone to RF interference.
For a brief period, I was quite enthusiastic about CB radio, and had a standard 4w AM transmitter tweaked to produce around 6w - I used to operate this within close vicinity of my HiFi and never once experienced interference.
TonyRPH said:
custodian said:
6. Use of additional ferrite rings was usually negative, making sound constrained
Around signal or speaker cables, I would expect some minor change - but not around mains cables.This is also part of the problem with EMI filtering particularly differential mode.
Le TVR said:
I would recommend that you look at the circulating currents in the PSU, especially the charge cycle waveforms under transients. You are creating an inductive supply to a transformer. Note also that the effect of an inductive supply will be different for a PSU in a class A amp to a class B one as the mean-peak ratio is totally different.
This is also part of the problem with EMI filtering particularly differential mode.
If I understand correctly, a fancy mains cable won't have any effect on this though?This is also part of the problem with EMI filtering particularly differential mode.
The current flow in a mains cable feeding a single load will be the same in both cores, resulting in opposite magnetic fields which will virtually cancel.
So the magnetic flux should be minimal (negligible at the low currents we're talking about I would have thought) so placing ferrite / moving the cable / placing the cable in close proximity to another cable will have no effect IMHO.
- in all honesty, I'm bordering on the edge of my knowledge here, so the above could be absolute codswallop.
TonyRPH said:
The current flow in a mains cable feeding a single load will be the same in both cores, resulting in opposite magnetic fields which will virtually cancel.
If it is passive, isolated load then by definition this must be the case.In audio applications the load is active and not isolated. There are various ground circulating currents both common and differential mode that may or may not be equal especially once the divergent requirements of EMC filtering and electrical safety are added to the AC port. The AC port must always be considered as bi-directional.
TonyRPH said:
- in all honesty, I'm bordering on the edge of my knowledge here,
custodian said:
BliarOut said:
I think it's safe to say the only thing that's real codswallop is that mains cable...
another great contribution to the debate. Thank you so muchIt's a £465 kettle lead, in your tests a similar product made things worse. It can be replicated for £1.99 with ferrite rings from Maplins.
Ridicule of that product is a very valid contribution in this particular case...
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