More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t
Discussion
Central to this discussion is the suggestion that any audible difference must be measurable electrically. In my experience that is not always the case. For example a low cost entry level electrolytic capacitor does not sound the same as a polypropylene capacitor of exactly the same farad value. The frequency reponse of the product they are fitted to is unchanged but the sound is; this component difference may be measurable via dissipation factor or other characteristics but dig deeper and there are audible differences between different brands of polypropylene capacitors. B&W selected the 1st order polyprop caps which feed the tweeters in their Diamond 800 series products after hundreds of hours of listening evaluation and selection. I'm not 100% sure which brand they chose in the end, Mundorf I think, but I doubt they measure any differently in circuit to Solen's, Jantzen's, Clarity Cap's et al.
Edited by Crackie on Monday 21st January 13:44
Crackie said:
Central to this discussion is the suggestion that any audible difference must be measurable electrically.
The problem revolves around which parameters will adequately characterise the sonic performance.With amplifiers there are two design philosophies, Douglas Self and Nelson Pass being good examples of each.
Self has published numerous papers on design topology centred around THD, IMD, frequency response and noise being so low that the amplifier could be referred to as 'blameless' unquote.
Pass on the other hand always looked at the topology from the aspect of how it sounded and the THD and response curves were secondary.
Having been educated in the principles of NFB, often global, to achieve what was seen as the grail of near-zero distortion I felt almost like a heretic the first time I played with a Pass amp design.
Most work now avoids global NFB and avoids any break points in the phase response whilst aiming for significant slew rates. Damping factor and THD measure worse but the end result is audibly better.
I can measure the phase linearity across the bandwidth but you will need to build your own equipment to do this.
I do know that an amp with only a few degrees of error in the audible pass band (and beyond) sounds better but this is not a 'quality' parameter as far as hifi is concerned.
In the past there was the concept of 'incompatibility'. The bizarre notion that certain equipment did not perform well with another type. This was somewhat ridiculed as both types had almost identical performance that was considered beyond reproach. The truth was that other parameters such as non-linear impedances and unstable grounding etc were the problem.
I remember testing a high-end amp for a friend who thought it sounded horrible with his new high-end speakers. It measured perfectly but I was surprised to hear just how awful the system was with certain track at certain levels. Turned out that the speaker cross overs let the impedance drop to a couple of ohms at one point and that was enough to make a potential difference in the amplifier's ground/feedback loop that moved the bias points.
Crackie said:
...for example a low cost entry level electrolytic capacitor does not sound the same as a polypropylene capacitor of exactly the same value. The frequency response of the product they are fitted to is unchanged but the sound is; this component difference may be measurable via dissipation factor but dig deeper and there are audible differences between different suppliers' polypropylene capacitors.
The electrical differences between these capacitors are fairly easy to measure BTW:http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/members.aol.com...
Checkout the ceramics
The sound impact of this depends upon circuit utilisation of course - one cannot generalise.
Once in the analogue domain all devices are imperfect, although even there the sound isn't helped by sitting your wires on little wooden blocks or buying a £900 mains cable when a bit of 2.5mm T&E does the job for pennies.
Globs said:
stuff about caps
Thanks for the link - that's very interesting, and substantiates my own findings from back in the late 80's.I was building amps and speakers back then (as a hobbyist - not professionally) - and found that Poly caps always sounded better in the crossovers and amps.
The electrolytics were frequently harsh, almost like the sound of a bad pop CD these days.
On the other hand, some of the so called "boutique" caps can yield what I call a "HiFi" sound giving the treble a distinct sheen like quality.
Globs said:
Crackie said:
...for example a low cost entry level electrolytic capacitor does not sound the same as a polypropylene capacitor of exactly the same value. The frequency response of the product they are fitted to is unchanged but the sound is; this component difference may be measurable via dissipation factor but dig deeper and there are audible differences between different suppliers' polypropylene capacitors.
The electrical differences between these capacitors are fairly easy to measure BTW:http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/members.aol.com...
Checkout the ceramics
The sound impact of this depends upon circuit utilisation of course - one cannot generalise.
Once in the analogue domain all devices are imperfect, although even there the sound isn't helped by sitting your wires on little wooden blocks or buying a £900 mains cable when a bit of 2.5mm T&E does the job for pennies.
Crackie said:
Globs said:
Crackie said:
...for example a low cost entry level electrolytic capacitor does not sound the same as a polypropylene capacitor of exactly the same value. The frequency response of the product they are fitted to is unchanged but the sound is; this component difference may be measurable via dissipation factor but dig deeper and there are audible differences between different suppliers' polypropylene capacitors.
The electrical differences between these capacitors are fairly easy to measure BTW:http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/members.aol.com...
Checkout the ceramics
The sound impact of this depends upon circuit utilisation of course - one cannot generalise.
Once in the analogue domain all devices are imperfect, although even there the sound isn't helped by sitting your wires on little wooden blocks or buying a £900 mains cable when a bit of 2.5mm T&E does the job for pennies.
For instance, Naim audio equipment is known for it's "timing" and foot-tapping sound quality. Exactly what oscilloscope would I use to pinpoint this audio quality and what reference scale would I use to compare these measurements with the "timing" of other amplifiers?
It's just a nonsense, you might as well try and describe the colour blue to someone who's been blind from birth. Specifications and measurements have their place in audio, but only up to a point, then you need to rely on your own hearing.
There is no objective baseline measurement for audio quality as we all perceive it differently and a huge variety of environmental and physcoacoustic effects are in play. It's a typically flwed reductionist argument - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductionism
I just found myself trawling through their website and I found another magical substance called "Black out series".
Now, I don't have a problem with screening as such - but quotes like this:
I'm sure the very short lengths of copper that "vibrate" really benefit from this treatment.
Utter, utter bulls
t.
But there it is - in black and white - and people must really buy into this st, given that the company is still trading.
ETA: And they really somebody to proof read their site. "Black Out Duplex's"??? Apostrophe abuse, pah!
Now, I don't have a problem with screening as such - but quotes like this:
Audio Magic said:
Black Out Duplex's:
Starting with a premium Leviton duplex, we first cryo treat then nano stream treat... but we don't stop there! We disassemble the duplex and apply a vibration control and black out paint to all contacts inside the duplex and surrounding walls to create the ultimate quiet duplex. The hot and negative contacts are all copper.
So they apply vibration control *and* "black out paint" to a mains socket...Starting with a premium Leviton duplex, we first cryo treat then nano stream treat... but we don't stop there! We disassemble the duplex and apply a vibration control and black out paint to all contacts inside the duplex and surrounding walls to create the ultimate quiet duplex. The hot and negative contacts are all copper.
I'm sure the very short lengths of copper that "vibrate" really benefit from this treatment.
Utter, utter bulls
t.But there it is - in black and white - and people must really buy into this s
t, given that the company is still trading.ETA: And they really somebody to proof read their site. "Black Out Duplex's"??? Apostrophe abuse, pah!
On the original subject matter, here's an example of a post from Gearslutz (if you don't know it, it's a place where people in the pro audio industry hang out, some of whom post on PH ).
A few interesting points.
"There are companies that will try to persuade you that there is something wrong with the electrical supply coming into your house or studio. In particular, they will try to tell you that there are all kinds of nasty radio frequency interference (RFI) signals marching down the mains cable, bent on making everything that you record sound 'muddy' or whatever hype word they go for.
99 times out of one hundred, there is absolutly nothing the matter with the power supply and adding some Mickey Mouse box does nothing for you.
The problem (for them) is you already have several devices that are perfect at getting rid of RFI. They are called power supply units and everything has got one!
All equipment runs on direct current. The audio signal may be alternating current (AC) but all electronic equipment uses direct current (DC) internally. The great exception is the Tonwheel assembly of the original Hammond Organ that uses the AC frequency to drive an asynchronous motor invented by Larry Hammond and first used in AC-driven clocks. But that is the only exception that you will find in a modern recording studio.
The incoming AC supply (roughly 230V in Europe and 120V in the US) is turned into the desired DC voltage and current by a device called a power supply unit (PSU). Usually the incoming voltage is reduced by a transformer and then a series of rectifiers and condensers smooth out the voltage to provide the exact value required. In a so-called universal power supply, the reduction is performed by a series of thyristors, but the capacitors are still there.
These transformers and capacitors act as massive low-pass filters. Radio frequencies in the 100kHz and above stand no chance! Also, all quality equipment had little filters known as 'taps' at the beginning and end of all longer signal paths to prevent any RFI bleeding in from outside.
Various forums have seen a spate of UPS - power conditioner - balanced power - and other completely unnecessary power 'cleaner' threads lately.
Let's get this straight, once and for all time -
1. An off-line UPS takes over when the power fails or drops below a certain value. If you are just afraid of the occasional black-out, this will do.
2. An on-line UPS replaces the in-coming power supply with a sine wave at the desired voltage at all times. If you are having REAL problems with your supply (varies wildly and may cut out) then this is the only solution that actually works.
3. Any UPS has to have a capacity of at least 50% more than the equipment to be supplied, if it is not to create more problems than it solves.
4. Balanced power must, by law, be installed by an electrician and be protected by trips for both sides of the balance in both the US and the UK. In the UK, ANY kind of fixed electrical installation must be performed by an electrician. A bodged installation of balanced power is a great way to kill yourself or just destroy your equipment.
5. Most power problems come from poor grounding. If you are in any kind of doubt, get a multimeter and check that the resistance between neutral and ground is absolutely zero at all outlets. In Europe, the power supply can vary greatly (too much leeway is permitted to the power companies here, IMO) between about 210 and 250 volts. If it is outside those values, complain in writing, after checking with a second multimeter.
Check your grounding and supply, BEFORE you waste money on any kind of boxes! The magic box that somehow solves gounding (aka earthing) problems has not been invented and never will be."
). A few interesting points.
"There are companies that will try to persuade you that there is something wrong with the electrical supply coming into your house or studio. In particular, they will try to tell you that there are all kinds of nasty radio frequency interference (RFI) signals marching down the mains cable, bent on making everything that you record sound 'muddy' or whatever hype word they go for.
99 times out of one hundred, there is absolutly nothing the matter with the power supply and adding some Mickey Mouse box does nothing for you.
The problem (for them) is you already have several devices that are perfect at getting rid of RFI. They are called power supply units and everything has got one!
All equipment runs on direct current. The audio signal may be alternating current (AC) but all electronic equipment uses direct current (DC) internally. The great exception is the Tonwheel assembly of the original Hammond Organ that uses the AC frequency to drive an asynchronous motor invented by Larry Hammond and first used in AC-driven clocks. But that is the only exception that you will find in a modern recording studio.
The incoming AC supply (roughly 230V in Europe and 120V in the US) is turned into the desired DC voltage and current by a device called a power supply unit (PSU). Usually the incoming voltage is reduced by a transformer and then a series of rectifiers and condensers smooth out the voltage to provide the exact value required. In a so-called universal power supply, the reduction is performed by a series of thyristors, but the capacitors are still there.
These transformers and capacitors act as massive low-pass filters. Radio frequencies in the 100kHz and above stand no chance! Also, all quality equipment had little filters known as 'taps' at the beginning and end of all longer signal paths to prevent any RFI bleeding in from outside.
Various forums have seen a spate of UPS - power conditioner - balanced power - and other completely unnecessary power 'cleaner' threads lately.
Let's get this straight, once and for all time -
1. An off-line UPS takes over when the power fails or drops below a certain value. If you are just afraid of the occasional black-out, this will do.
2. An on-line UPS replaces the in-coming power supply with a sine wave at the desired voltage at all times. If you are having REAL problems with your supply (varies wildly and may cut out) then this is the only solution that actually works.
3. Any UPS has to have a capacity of at least 50% more than the equipment to be supplied, if it is not to create more problems than it solves.
4. Balanced power must, by law, be installed by an electrician and be protected by trips for both sides of the balance in both the US and the UK. In the UK, ANY kind of fixed electrical installation must be performed by an electrician. A bodged installation of balanced power is a great way to kill yourself or just destroy your equipment.
5. Most power problems come from poor grounding. If you are in any kind of doubt, get a multimeter and check that the resistance between neutral and ground is absolutely zero at all outlets. In Europe, the power supply can vary greatly (too much leeway is permitted to the power companies here, IMO) between about 210 and 250 volts. If it is outside those values, complain in writing, after checking with a second multimeter.
Check your grounding and supply, BEFORE you waste money on any kind of boxes! The magic box that somehow solves gounding (aka earthing) problems has not been invented and never will be."
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Lol, http://www.audiot.co.uk/products/naim-power-line-2...
naimbks said:
ks said: With the launch of Naim's first custom designed and manufactured mains cable system, the most fundamental of all audio hardware items has hit centre stage. The Power-Line consists of a mains outlet plug, a mains cable and a mains IEC inlet plug, Each element incorporates features never before seen in an audio mains cable, and, like Naim's Hi-Line interconnect cable, the Power-Line represents a genuine advance in high-end audio engineering.
Naim, the purveyor of overpriced dull black transistor boxes have decided that after 15m of 2.5mm T&E cable in the walls you really need the last bit to be in 4mm, but not 4mm twin and earth cable at £2 per metre, but magical Naim cable at over £230 a metre.Cables, a genuine advance in psychological engineering. As for pouring money into silver for that 5-7% gain in conduction it's ridiculous, the only place silver wire makes sense is inside a transformer where thicker copper wire doesn't fit so easily. Not that there's any silver in most of these bulls
t mains cables.This 'genuine advance' also has many features, features like a plug, a socket and some wire. Wow.
It's amazing what you can sell if you put the right brand name on it. I particularly liked this bit:
"The Power-Line cable itself is custom manufactured with 4mm2 cross section copper conductors, individual dielectric insulation chosen for its sound enhancing electrical properties, and a final rubber outer that provides both high levels of inherent mechanical damping, and the correct stiffness to aid dressing on installation."
"Sound enhancing electrical properties" - does that imply that you get sounds coming down the mains?
"The Power-Line cable itself is custom manufactured with 4mm2 cross section copper conductors, individual dielectric insulation chosen for its sound enhancing electrical properties, and a final rubber outer that provides both high levels of inherent mechanical damping, and the correct stiffness to aid dressing on installation."
"Sound enhancing electrical properties" - does that imply that you get sounds coming down the mains?
So called audio pros said:
These transformers and capacitors act as massive low-pass filters. Radio frequencies in the 100kHz and above stand no chance! Also, all quality equipment had little filters known as 'taps' at the beginning and end of all longer signal paths to prevent any RFI bleeding in from outside.
While the statement is correct in isolation, they have overlooked the fact that the vast majority of domestic electronics is powered by Switchmode Powersupplies (SMPS). These are great from the cost/weight/efficiency point of view but from an interference pov they are a nightmare that require very considerable common and differential mode filtering to avoid passing RFI back into the mains. Yes there are some that are not that bad but there are also a lot that are 'Chinese'....SMPS can easily generate harmonics back into the mains supply, again some a not bad but there are others.
Get a line coupler and a spectrum analyser and have a look for yourselves.
The idea that RF above 100kHz stands no chance is unbelievably short sighted. An E-I transformer may be fairly good but a toriodal is much worse. Guess what most equipment uses. Then the capacitors have an effective frequency range of a few decades before they stop acting like a simple capacitance.
So yes, there may be a lot of oily, slithery waffle out there but there are also some valid products. The big problem is how to differentiate between them.
The crazy thing is that Naim make ordinary class B transistor amps with Williamson style global negative feedback (i.e ordinary, flawed). Designing one's top-price amps with 3 major compromises right off the bat is an odd way to go, then they sell you snake-oil inspired supply cable to bolt onto this flawed design.
This is the problem with an uneducated hi-fi press, and the reason that since the 50s sound quality hasn't really moved on very far - bar some developments in speaker design and Japanese led amplifier design. I suppose you could say the CD was a step forward, but now the mashed mastering makes them considerably worse quality than old 1960s analogue recordings.
Next time you pass a hifi shop pop in and have a listen. You'll note the dull, muted sound of hifi, honed into mediocrity by a willingly ignorant audio press powered by hype and advertising spend. Then pass by a music shop and tap on the snare drum to re-connect with reality
http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2008/11/most-expensive...
This is the problem with an uneducated hi-fi press, and the reason that since the 50s sound quality hasn't really moved on very far - bar some developments in speaker design and Japanese led amplifier design. I suppose you could say the CD was a step forward, but now the mashed mastering makes them considerably worse quality than old 1960s analogue recordings.
Next time you pass a hifi shop pop in and have a listen. You'll note the dull, muted sound of hifi, honed into mediocrity by a willingly ignorant audio press powered by hype and advertising spend. Then pass by a music shop and tap on the snare drum to re-connect with reality
http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2008/11/most-expensive...
hype said:
This audiophile speaker cable boasts “Counter Spiralling Geometry” and “Spread Spectrum Technology” conductors. It’s got 4 different sizes of positive conductors and eight (!) negative conductors
custodian said:
Le TVR said:
While the statement is correct in isolation, they have overlooked the fact that the vast majority of domestic electronics is powered by Switchmode Powersupplies (SMPS). These are great from the cost/weight/efficiency point of view but from an interference pov they are a nightmare that require very considerable common and differential mode filtering to avoid passing RFI back into the mains. Yes there are some that are not that bad but there are also a lot that are 'Chinese'....
SMPS can easily generate harmonics back into the mains supply, again some a not bad but there are others.
Get a line coupler and a spectrum analyser and have a look for yourselves.
The idea that RF above 100kHz stands no chance is unbelievably short sighted. An E-I transformer may be fairly good but a toriodal is much worse. Guess what most equipment uses. Then the capacitors have an effective frequency range of a few decades before they stop acting like a simple capacitance.
So yes, there may be a lot of oily, slithery waffle out there but there are also some valid products. The big problem is how to differentiate between them.
Good post. Seperating the snake oil from the good stuff is the key issue. Ears can help with that. The sort of blanket dogma we keep hearing from Globs and his cronies is not remotely helpful but I suppose has to be expected on here.SMPS can easily generate harmonics back into the mains supply, again some a not bad but there are others.
Get a line coupler and a spectrum analyser and have a look for yourselves.
The idea that RF above 100kHz stands no chance is unbelievably short sighted. An E-I transformer may be fairly good but a toriodal is much worse. Guess what most equipment uses. Then the capacitors have an effective frequency range of a few decades before they stop acting like a simple capacitance.
So yes, there may be a lot of oily, slithery waffle out there but there are also some valid products. The big problem is how to differentiate between them.
quote=Le TVR]
While the statement is correct in isolation, they have overlooked the fact that the vast majority of domestic electronics is powered by Switchmode Powersupplies (SMPS). These are great from the cost/weight/efficiency point of view but from an interference pov they are a nightmare that require very considerable common and differential mode filtering to avoid passing RFI back into the mains. Yes there are some that are not that bad but there are also a lot that are 'Chinese'....
[/quote]
I can't claim to be as knowledgeable as you guys when it gets down to the PCB and components but wouldn't any half decent hifi amp power supply have the necessary electronics to deal with this?
While the statement is correct in isolation, they have overlooked the fact that the vast majority of domestic electronics is powered by Switchmode Powersupplies (SMPS). These are great from the cost/weight/efficiency point of view but from an interference pov they are a nightmare that require very considerable common and differential mode filtering to avoid passing RFI back into the mains. Yes there are some that are not that bad but there are also a lot that are 'Chinese'....
[/quote]
I can't claim to be as knowledgeable as you guys when it gets down to the PCB and components but wouldn't any half decent hifi amp power supply have the necessary electronics to deal with this?
custodian said:
Le TVR said:
While the statement is correct in isolation, they have overlooked the fact that the vast majority of domestic electronics is powered by Switchmode Powersupplies (SMPS). These are great from the cost/weight/efficiency point of view but from an interference pov they are a nightmare that require very considerable common and differential mode filtering to avoid passing RFI back into the mains. Yes there are some that are not that bad but there are also a lot that are 'Chinese'....
SMPS can easily generate harmonics back into the mains supply, again some a not bad but there are others.
Get a line coupler and a spectrum analyser and have a look for yourselves.
The idea that RF above 100kHz stands no chance is unbelievably short sighted. An E-I transformer may be fairly good but a toriodal is much worse. Guess what most equipment uses. Then the capacitors have an effective frequency range of a few decades before they stop acting like a simple capacitance.
So yes, there may be a lot of oily, slithery waffle out there but there are also some valid products. The big problem is how to differentiate between them.
Good post. Seperating the snake oil from the good stuff is the key issue. Ears can help with that. The sort of blanket dogma we keep hearing from Globs and his cronies is not remotely helpful but I suppose has to be expected on here.SMPS can easily generate harmonics back into the mains supply, again some a not bad but there are others.
Get a line coupler and a spectrum analyser and have a look for yourselves.
The idea that RF above 100kHz stands no chance is unbelievably short sighted. An E-I transformer may be fairly good but a toriodal is much worse. Guess what most equipment uses. Then the capacitors have an effective frequency range of a few decades before they stop acting like a simple capacitance.
So yes, there may be a lot of oily, slithery waffle out there but there are also some valid products. The big problem is how to differentiate between them.
Mainstream brands such as Panasonic / Samsung etc. have to achieve certification in order to be sold in this country (and of course many others).
Part of this certification requires meeting standards regarding RFI transmission* back into the mains supply - and is why you see many devices with built in mains filters.
These filters are not there to prevent ingress of interference from the mains, but to prevent interference exiting the PSU on to the mains.
Also, SMPS design has improved greatly over the past few years, and interference is less of a problem than it used to be (even without filters).
- this also covers airborne RFI transmission, and has done so for many years.
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