More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t
Discussion
kayc said:
My comment was meant to be tongue in cheek to some degree,where I disagree with your opinion on cables is that I’m not saying 10k cables will improve your system like some of the companies try to say,what I am saying is the s
tty freebies that come in the box can definitely be detrimental to the sound,I had a non believing buddy of mine who refused to buy some reasonably priced speaker cables to go with his eggleston works speakers that he heard sounding amazing on demo,got them home and plugged them in with bell wire and they were dreadful,had to go back to the shop to buy the cables the guy used at the demo!
This (bold above) is a key factor that was missing from your original 'argument', and the definition of 'bell wire' is vague.tty freebies that come in the box can definitely be detrimental to the sound,I had a non believing buddy of mine who refused to buy some reasonably priced speaker cables to go with his eggleston works speakers that he heard sounding amazing on demo,got them home and plugged them in with bell wire and they were dreadful,had to go back to the shop to buy the cables the guy used at the demo!However, it is fair to say that even a basic 42 strand cable* will suffice for the average system, but of course it also depends on speaker impedance and amplifier power.
- 42 strand cable (42 strands of 0.2mm wire) is rated 15 amps however I suspect that's a trifle optimistic when compared with 2.5mm multicore (not the stiff grey stuff known as T+E) mains cable rated for 15 amps.
Edited by TonyRPH on Friday 7th January 11:05
Sporky said:
I think a fresh clean bit of vinyl should sound pretty darned good. I seem to remember reading that the first plays of a good pressing are roughly equivalent to 24-bit in terms of dynamic range above noise floor (though I certainly can't provide a Citation, so take that as near-worthless!).
I'm not particularly fussed about vinyl vs CD vs compressed/streamed for my own listening - but I'd be genuinely interested to know.
An LP made out of perfect vinyl LP would have a theoretical dynamic range of 70 dB, which equates to about 11 to 12 bits.I'm not particularly fussed about vinyl vs CD vs compressed/streamed for my own listening - but I'd be genuinely interested to know.
Even the best digital systems don't achieve full 24bits yet (as far as I know).
Diderot said:
I was once a member of a Facebook group where the owner of MCRU was also a member - and the amount of crap he would spout about interconnects, mains cables, filters etc. etc. resulted in many arguments with him, from me and other group members.
robinessex said:
Tony1963 said:
If anyone doubts that there are major differences between recordings, and they still use a CD player, try playing the typical 'Best of" disc, and comparing it to a properly recorded original disc.
The 'Best of' will almost definitely sound flat, lifeless, and will never get played again. I'm no golden-eared hifi nerd, just a bloke that likes to enjoy his music.
The website I've used in the past to help me choose the right discs is being rebuilt at the moment, typical!
I've suspected in the past that some CDs are deliberately 'adjusted' to sound good on inferior music systems, that sort that the majority buy and listen on.The 'Best of' will almost definitely sound flat, lifeless, and will never get played again. I'm no golden-eared hifi nerd, just a bloke that likes to enjoy his music.
The website I've used in the past to help me choose the right discs is being rebuilt at the moment, typical!
The dynamic range is stripped from the music, leaving a distorted, compressed mess.
Rumours sounds ok on my system, as does Adele oddly enough - and yet the Adele album is hugely over compressed (see images below, captured with Orban Loudness Meter).
What I have found, is that the DAC used can help here - some DACs are quite tolerant of excessively high (digital) levels and those that are tend to sound ok, whereas DACs that don't handle high digital levels well, tend to harden the sound.
Fleetwood Mac - You make Living Fun (good DR)
Adele - Rumour Has It. (bad DR)
What I have found, is that the DAC used can help here - some DACs are quite tolerant of excessively high (digital) levels and those that are tend to sound ok, whereas DACs that don't handle high digital levels well, tend to harden the sound.
Fleetwood Mac - You make Living Fun (good DR)
Adele - Rumour Has It. (bad DR)
InductionRoar said:
<snip>
DR is fairly meaningless in isolation - particularly when audiences can boost the rating by clapping and cheering on live recordings. Hardly a measure of quality but it seems to be a byword for such in hi-fi circles.
As I wrote a few posts back, there is a definite link between over compressed (lack of DR) recordings and poor sound - but there is a caveat - this does not seem to affect all (compressed) recordings.DR is fairly meaningless in isolation - particularly when audiences can boost the rating by clapping and cheering on live recordings. Hardly a measure of quality but it seems to be a byword for such in hi-fi circles.
I believe the reason for this, is that some recordings are actually digitally clipped - and others, while heavily compressed, manage to avoid the clipping effects.
There is a post processing device, the name of which I have forgotten, which is specifically intended to push levels to the absolute maximum without inducing digital clipping, but with maximum compression.
As I also wrote - some DACs seem to handle very high digital levels than others, something which I have verified with THD measurements too.
ATG said:
I had some book shelves like that.
I knew a bloke who drilled holes in the living room floor so that his turntable could sit on a stand in the living room that was actually anchored to the floor in the cellar beneath. He had a rigid triangulated dexion shelving tower from cellar floor to just below the ceiling, then four legs going up through the floor into the living room. Stopped the stylus skipping when people walked around on the bouncy ground floor. He had a patient wife. (He was also an all round class A genius.)
When he could simply have mounted it on the wall....I knew a bloke who drilled holes in the living room floor so that his turntable could sit on a stand in the living room that was actually anchored to the floor in the cellar beneath. He had a rigid triangulated dexion shelving tower from cellar floor to just below the ceiling, then four legs going up through the floor into the living room. Stopped the stylus skipping when people walked around on the bouncy ground floor. He had a patient wife. (He was also an all round class A genius.)
wolfracesonic said:
Cynic! I’m going to try this, not got one those fancy gizmos, so I’m going to put a cd in my 41/2’’ angle grinder and bevel the edge with wood chisel, may go for 37degrees, not 36 after doing some reading; personally, can’t see what could go wrong
I see something like this in your future.. https://youtu.be/zs7x1Hu29Wc?t=150BIRMA said:
Quite a lot of HiFi gear has both XLR and phono, my Pathos Inpol Ear has both of them as does the Chord DAVE.
With regards to studios, my small studio I built for my band all had XLR as standard all the mikes were XLR as was the mixing desk so I think it was fair to assume it was the industry standard.
XLR (balanced) connections are used in studios and other professional environments because balanced connections are more resilient to noise.With regards to studios, my small studio I built for my band all had XLR as standard all the mikes were XLR as was the mixing desk so I think it was fair to assume it was the industry standard.
It's nothing at all to do with sound quality.
In fact, until recent years, the additional electronics required to create balanced connections was actually noisier than unbalanced connections.
BIRMA said:
I didn't say the studio equipment I had was about quality it was just an observation that everything you bought seemed to have XLR. Just to add the studio I built was just for us to record one take live recordings to improve our performance so my technical knowledge was far from a professional set-up
And yes I understand that point about noise.
My point about quality was a general observation and not aimed at you directly.And yes I understand that point about noise.
Edited by BIRMA on Tuesday 13th September 21:11
Mr_Yogi said:
From my understanding XLR is more usefull over longer runs of cable, so perfect for studio use. I see the main suggested benefit in HiFi between pre amp and monoblocks, where the pre is on the hifi rack and the power amps are by the speakers.
XLR is a balanced connection and as such is beneficial for long cable runs, and as you say is recommended for connection between preamp and monoblocks or active speakers.The nature of a balanced transmission line results in the effective cancellation of interference.
See the link below for a detailed explanation. If you want to cut to the chase, scroll about 1/3 down the page and look for the heading: "Balanced Audio Explained".
https://audiouniversityonline.com/balanced-vs-unba...
In order to maintain stability (usually at high frequencies) most power amplifiers will have an inductor in the speaker path.
Naim in all their infinite wisdom declared that an inductor in the speaker path wasn't good for fidelity, so their amps required inductive speaker cable to compensate.
People unwittingly used regular low inductance cables with these amps, which often resulted in destruction.
NVA (remember them!?) amps worked (sometimes!) on the same basis - wrong cables = burnt amp.
Naim also eschewed proper output protection on their early amps - so any instability (oscillation) immediately destroyed the output transistors.
An inductor in the speaker path does not affect sound quality. It filters way above audible frequencies.
An amplifier can be designed to be stable without requiring any inductance in the output stage - Naim seemingly couldn't manage this minor feat.
P.S. I also forgot to mention - in some of their designs, Naim stuck a 5 Watt wirewound resistor in series with the speaker - this was not only inductive, but also had a negative effect on damping factor.
Naim in all their infinite wisdom declared that an inductor in the speaker path wasn't good for fidelity, so their amps required inductive speaker cable to compensate.
People unwittingly used regular low inductance cables with these amps, which often resulted in destruction.
NVA (remember them!?) amps worked (sometimes!) on the same basis - wrong cables = burnt amp.
Naim also eschewed proper output protection on their early amps - so any instability (oscillation) immediately destroyed the output transistors.
An inductor in the speaker path does not affect sound quality. It filters way above audible frequencies.
An amplifier can be designed to be stable without requiring any inductance in the output stage - Naim seemingly couldn't manage this minor feat.
P.S. I also forgot to mention - in some of their designs, Naim stuck a 5 Watt wirewound resistor in series with the speaker - this was not only inductive, but also had a negative effect on damping factor.
With regard to the speaker cable comments above.
The older Naim amps were actually dependant on the correct speaker cable as specified by Naim.
This cable had a fairly high inductance, and was used to stabilise the amp, as they were quite unstable if used with generic cable.
So this is why the Naim cable probably improved the sound - not directly because of the cable - but because the amp was oscillating and the cable prevented this oscillation.
They were simply not a very good design.
The older Naim amps were actually dependant on the correct speaker cable as specified by Naim.
This cable had a fairly high inductance, and was used to stabilise the amp, as they were quite unstable if used with generic cable.
So this is why the Naim cable probably improved the sound - not directly because of the cable - but because the amp was oscillating and the cable prevented this oscillation.
They were simply not a very good design.
Most amplifiers of that topology require and inductor in the speaker line - this is usually placed at the output.
The Naim designers wanted to avoid this inductor, citing sonic reasons, so they used the cable as an inductor instead.
Some of their later designs featured a 0.22 ohm or so wirewound resistor (wirewound resistors have intrinsic inductance) in line with the speaker output instead.
The introduction of this resistor wasn't a good idea either, from a sonic point of view.
It was just a compromised design, which incidentally was an almost exact copy of the original ~1968 RCA transistor (10 watt) amplifier.
The Naim designers wanted to avoid this inductor, citing sonic reasons, so they used the cable as an inductor instead.
Some of their later designs featured a 0.22 ohm or so wirewound resistor (wirewound resistors have intrinsic inductance) in line with the speaker output instead.
The introduction of this resistor wasn't a good idea either, from a sonic point of view.
It was just a compromised design, which incidentally was an almost exact copy of the original ~1968 RCA transistor (10 watt) amplifier.
Putting both my network and electronics engineers hats on..
TCP/IP is a very robust protocol, and doesn't need special audiophile switches to enhance it.
The audio blogger Archimago performed some audio measurements across continents and there was no measurable hit to performance.
As for power supplies... A typical switch mode type 'wall wart' PSU has better voltage stability than a typical transformer based PSU.
Even the cheapest switch mode PSUs are quite low noise (they have to be, in order to meet with the various type approvals).
And finally, all ports on a switch are isolated from each other and ground - so a switch won't cause ground loops and there is no need for Ethernet isolators and other audiofoolery.
The switch linked to a few posts above is in the realms of the add on SATA interface that sits between motherboard and HDD - there is simply no need for it, and it will not enhance sound quality.
All of this is easily verified with measurements - however the devout 'believers' will claim that we're not measuring the right things, or some measurements can't demonstrate audible differences etc. etc..
TCP/IP is a very robust protocol, and doesn't need special audiophile switches to enhance it.
The audio blogger Archimago performed some audio measurements across continents and there was no measurable hit to performance.
As for power supplies... A typical switch mode type 'wall wart' PSU has better voltage stability than a typical transformer based PSU.
Even the cheapest switch mode PSUs are quite low noise (they have to be, in order to meet with the various type approvals).
And finally, all ports on a switch are isolated from each other and ground - so a switch won't cause ground loops and there is no need for Ethernet isolators and other audiofoolery.
The switch linked to a few posts above is in the realms of the add on SATA interface that sits between motherboard and HDD - there is simply no need for it, and it will not enhance sound quality.
All of this is easily verified with measurements - however the devout 'believers' will claim that we're not measuring the right things, or some measurements can't demonstrate audible differences etc. etc..
OutInTheShed said:
Archimago:
Other than the unfortunate buffer under-run every 15 seconds, the song sounded excellent subjectively during playback.
Well that's all right then....
Personally I listen to various interweb music and I do notice the odd glitch.
Not enough to stop me enjoying the wide choice of music, and of course it could be the fridge interfering with the analogue amp or something.
Still not a bad performance to say the signal traversed ~4000 miles.Other than the unfortunate buffer under-run every 15 seconds, the song sounded excellent subjectively during playback.
Well that's all right then....
Personally I listen to various interweb music and I do notice the odd glitch.
Not enough to stop me enjoying the wide choice of music, and of course it could be the fridge interfering with the analogue amp or something.
I stream radio from various parts of the world on a daily basis, and rarely notice any issues at all. Admittedly. most of it is 128k / 256k and at best 384k - however the Radio Paradise flac stream is very reliable (but delivered from a European mirror),
OutInTheShed said:
OTOH, it's pretty hard to prove the negative, can you be sure that a poor network switch cannot possibly affect sound quality?
Yes. TCPIP is a very robust protocol. If there was a communication error, then there would be buffer underruns in any connected streamer for example - and this would simply cause the audio to be interrupted, it would not affect the sound quality.It truly is a case of it either works or it doesn't.
OutInTheShed said:
If you've ever worked in small-signal instrumentation, you might be aware that there are many, many ways for things to go wrong when you have digital stuff connected to analogue stuff. In the lab, you can find yourself not understanding how something makes a difference, but observing that it does.
I have (and do) work with small signal amplification - I carry out sensitive measurements of analogue gear using computers. I've yet to experience any issues caused by networking equipment. The biggest issue has always been ground loops or interference from nearby noise sources.OutInTheShed said:
And not knowing how compromised other switches are, how can we be sure that they don't sometimes cause issues with timing or buffering when used in certain configurations of other products?
Any product connected to a network should meet with specific IEEE standards - if it fails to do so, then that is a fault of the designer and not the equipment.I have encountered a fair amount of HiFi gear that has some unusual (electrical interface) design choices - probably done to change the sound one way or another and totally pointless. The cynic in me can see how a manufacturer would attempt to engineer a "special" network interface that requires a "special" switch or router for example.
OutInTheShed said:
When somebody knocks out a regular consumer switch for £20 or whatever, what liberties might they be taking which are OK 99% of the time?
Or conversely, what might the audio equipment be subjecting a switch to? Esoteric audio stuff designed by single-minded enthusiasts might not be entirely 'mainstream' on the digital/networking side.
As per my comment above - any network connections should meet with IEE standards - if it doesn't then the gear has to be considered as inferior.Or conversely, what might the audio equipment be subjecting a switch to? Esoteric audio stuff designed by single-minded enthusiasts might not be entirely 'mainstream' on the digital/networking side.
OutInTheShed said:
The way these products are reviewed is great comedy, but that seems to be just as true of the products we trust.
I believe there's no issue in trusting that devices conform to standards, as if mainstream devices failed to do so, they would soon be 'outed'.Gassing Station | Home Cinema & Hi-Fi | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff