Offered Singapore role
Discussion
My company have just given me the choice of heading up a fledgling team in EMEA (based in UK) or starting the equivalent team up in APAC out of Singapore. As a startup company I'm assuming there would be little to no relocation package.
Would a package of 200k SGD be enough for a family of 4, including schools? I assume a car wouldn't be necessary, so that helps. A quick look at a SG tax calculator shows I'd be paying approx 10% tax on that, which obviously helps!
Would a package of 200k SGD be enough for a family of 4, including schools? I assume a car wouldn't be necessary, so that helps. A quick look at a SG tax calculator shows I'd be paying approx 10% tax on that, which obviously helps!
tight but doable .....
international school is effin expensive ... $30k a nipper but i believe there are good alternative options.
you will need a large condo / house for that tribe, so will be looking at rental $5k minimum probably higher (could find a large HDB cheaper but for just arriving and first time that probably not desirable)
Utilities will probably run to $500 if you are all using aircon, TV and internet the same again, local asian food is cheap (can eat out in hawker stalls for $3 a plate, but western food is going to cost more. as does booze, $4 for a can of beer in the supermarket etc etc
your tax bracket on an EP will be 15%
If its a startup then your company will have to figure out how to set up the entity and meet the varioys local hire requirements to generate a visa.
international school is effin expensive ... $30k a nipper but i believe there are good alternative options.
you will need a large condo / house for that tribe, so will be looking at rental $5k minimum probably higher (could find a large HDB cheaper but for just arriving and first time that probably not desirable)
Utilities will probably run to $500 if you are all using aircon, TV and internet the same again, local asian food is cheap (can eat out in hawker stalls for $3 a plate, but western food is going to cost more. as does booze, $4 for a can of beer in the supermarket etc etc
your tax bracket on an EP will be 15%
If its a startup then your company will have to figure out how to set up the entity and meet the varioys local hire requirements to generate a visa.
John is your man, but that's around 95K pounds before tax, I don't think that is anywhere near what you need, my daughters school fees in KL last year where 20K pounds with extras like school trips.
The object of going abroad is to better yourself not to be the same. My first trrip overseas (in 1980) i doubled my Uk net had a better company car and had house provided.
The object of going abroad is to better yourself not to be the same. My first trrip overseas (in 1980) i doubled my Uk net had a better company car and had house provided.
Sorry - just saw that i wrote a lot more than i expected! A few other PH'ers still living in SG will be along shortly, i moved out 18 months ago after nearly 10 years and now live in Bangkok (needed a change)
As i say tight but doable, you need to get out to Singapore for 1 or 2 weeks and see what your "normal" lifestyle will cost .... see how long GBP1000 lasts in your pocked in the supermarket / pub / having a meal out / taxi's etc.
Some things are cheaper some not so .... taxi's and public transport are good value, but then you wont be able to afford a car on your budget (unless you have a spare $100k + that you can use to buy outright and for that you will get a nissan sunny or a kia katpoo) so you will spend alot by volume of trips. You will also start to experience some frustrations (taxi's disappearing when it rains as they dont like to risk driving in a monsoon..... to be fair this is not a bad thing mind you as being in a Toyota Crown on remolded cross ply's when its pissing it down is an interesting experience in hydrodynamics!!! )
Also whats your missus going to do when she is in SG? Does she have a career (have a degree / industry qualifications in a profession that can get her a job - by this i mean does she meet the criteria for a work permit, not does she have the skills for a role) or if she is going to be a housewife, what is she going to do. she has no friends here so will be alone, needs to have access to hobbies and interests - have some budget to join a club (British or Tanglin club, or one that relates to one of her hobbies) - this point alone is the one biggest reason that most first time expat relocation fail - SWMBO doesn't have friends / hobbies interests so very quickly gets homesick ....
RE company not providing any relocation benefits - would suggest pushing them for a few things if they don't want to commit to upping the rate..
- obviously they pay for shipping of possessions out + repatriation back at the end of the term
- they cover your whole family for full medical + dental insurance
- they provide you and family at least one return trip to UK per year. (suggest that this could tie in with you doing a once a year trip back to head office)
- housing - either cover your house or at least give you a top up of $2 or 3 k to help.
- Club membership - get the Company to look at a corporate membership to the British / tanglin / similar club - these are useful for business meetings / social entertaining / business networking / access to larger business facilities like conference rooms for you as a startup / gyms etc. Added value, somewhere that SWMBO can hang out (con's - she meets the ladies that lunch then discovers just how much some guys are on .... )
- some sort of extra bonus tied in to your performance delivering the new business unit above your normal bonuses.
Think - what will you do with your home and other physical stuff in the UK? will you rent it out? can it cover its mortgage + running costs, even if its empty for 3 months a year.
Not trying to put doom and gloom on everything - just giving you some ideas - it is well worth making the effort, as long as you can get all the little bits sorted out properly first.
Edit to add - don't have any bin lids myself but .... the main schools for UK system is Chatsworth i believe, however there are very good local schools that cost less - however you will likely not even be able to get a place at one of them! (how old are your nippers anyway). One advantage to the move is the international experience and exposure that your kids will get, most expat kids that i have known have gone on to be much more successful in careers than their contemporaries that never left their home town.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international...
As i say tight but doable, you need to get out to Singapore for 1 or 2 weeks and see what your "normal" lifestyle will cost .... see how long GBP1000 lasts in your pocked in the supermarket / pub / having a meal out / taxi's etc.
Some things are cheaper some not so .... taxi's and public transport are good value, but then you wont be able to afford a car on your budget (unless you have a spare $100k + that you can use to buy outright and for that you will get a nissan sunny or a kia katpoo) so you will spend alot by volume of trips. You will also start to experience some frustrations (taxi's disappearing when it rains as they dont like to risk driving in a monsoon..... to be fair this is not a bad thing mind you as being in a Toyota Crown on remolded cross ply's when its pissing it down is an interesting experience in hydrodynamics!!! )
Also whats your missus going to do when she is in SG? Does she have a career (have a degree / industry qualifications in a profession that can get her a job - by this i mean does she meet the criteria for a work permit, not does she have the skills for a role) or if she is going to be a housewife, what is she going to do. she has no friends here so will be alone, needs to have access to hobbies and interests - have some budget to join a club (British or Tanglin club, or one that relates to one of her hobbies) - this point alone is the one biggest reason that most first time expat relocation fail - SWMBO doesn't have friends / hobbies interests so very quickly gets homesick ....
RE company not providing any relocation benefits - would suggest pushing them for a few things if they don't want to commit to upping the rate..
- obviously they pay for shipping of possessions out + repatriation back at the end of the term
- they cover your whole family for full medical + dental insurance
- they provide you and family at least one return trip to UK per year. (suggest that this could tie in with you doing a once a year trip back to head office)
- housing - either cover your house or at least give you a top up of $2 or 3 k to help.
- Club membership - get the Company to look at a corporate membership to the British / tanglin / similar club - these are useful for business meetings / social entertaining / business networking / access to larger business facilities like conference rooms for you as a startup / gyms etc. Added value, somewhere that SWMBO can hang out (con's - she meets the ladies that lunch then discovers just how much some guys are on .... )
- some sort of extra bonus tied in to your performance delivering the new business unit above your normal bonuses.
Think - what will you do with your home and other physical stuff in the UK? will you rent it out? can it cover its mortgage + running costs, even if its empty for 3 months a year.
Not trying to put doom and gloom on everything - just giving you some ideas - it is well worth making the effort, as long as you can get all the little bits sorted out properly first.
Edit to add - don't have any bin lids myself but .... the main schools for UK system is Chatsworth i believe, however there are very good local schools that cost less - however you will likely not even be able to get a place at one of them! (how old are your nippers anyway). One advantage to the move is the international experience and exposure that your kids will get, most expat kids that i have known have gone on to be much more successful in careers than their contemporaries that never left their home town.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international...
Edited by XJSJohn on Friday 5th September 04:30
Edited by XJSJohn on Friday 5th September 04:32
An option for you would be to live in Malaysia and commute across the Tuas bridge everyday. The border is a bit unpredictable but the payoff in lifestyle is, in my opinion, worth it. We rent a huge 5 bedroomed house overlooking a golf course on a gated community for 4000MYR (just less than 800GBP) a month. Cars are cheaper (still expensive) to buy but cost next to nothing to run. The Johor area is expanding at an alarming rate and it is quite an exciting place to be at the moment. There are numerous schools and the space and freedom compared to Singapore is refreshing. You'd certainly be able to live a comfortable lifestyle rather than watching every dollar. Plus, Malaysia isn't quite the bandit country Singaporeans would lead you to believe.
tom5678 said:
An option for you would be to live in Malaysia and commute across the Tuas bridge everyday. The border is a bit unpredictable but the payoff in lifestyle is, in my opinion, worth it. We rent a huge 5 bedroomed house overlooking a golf course on a gated community for 4000MYR (just less than 800GBP) a month. Cars are cheaper (still expensive) to buy but cost next to nothing to run. The Johor area is expanding at an alarming rate and it is quite an exciting place to be at the moment. There are numerous schools and the space and freedom compared to Singapore is refreshing. You'd certainly be able to live a comfortable lifestyle rather than watching every dollar. Plus, Malaysia isn't quite the bandit country Singaporeans would lead you to believe.
3 issues with this 1 - You cannot drive a Malaysian Registered car into Singapore if you are a Singaporean, a Singapore PR or hold a Singapore Work Permit
2 - the recent "border wars" have caused the tolls to ramp up, i believe its something like $25 a day in combined toles to drive into and back out of Singapore (some Malaysian tolls, some Singapore)
3 - all the family would have to do "visa run's" in and out of singapore every 30 days as they would not have visa's for malaysia (i am not sure how the MACS Card system works for people renting as opposed to owning in Iskander - but if this is OK, then i believe they get 90 days stay as long as not working)
Agree would be much better for the family living in Iskander (can recommend Horizon Hills for example, i have a place there) and you have Marlborough College amongst the international schools, but i have no idea how you could commute realistically on public transport without it being several hours a day, and not sure i would want to to it on a motorbike daily.
We moved to Horizon Hills at the beginning of July, small world!
Valid points about Visas etc, I hold a Malaysian work permit and my family all have dependents passes so hadn't considered this either. Shame as the gulf in lifestyle between Malaysia and Singapore is considerable.
Valid points about Visas etc, I hold a Malaysian work permit and my family all have dependents passes so hadn't considered this either. Shame as the gulf in lifestyle between Malaysia and Singapore is considerable.
Edited by tom5678 on Friday 5th September 06:47
tom5678 said:
We moved to Horizon Hills at the beginning of July, small world!
Valid points about Visas etc, I hold a Malaysian work permit and my family all have dependents passes so hadn't considered this either. Shame as the gulf in lifestyles between Malaysia and Singapore is considerable.
My place is in "the hills" opposite the 3rd green! one of the terrace houses about 300 meters from the club house. Don't get down there much at all these days .... Valid points about Visas etc, I hold a Malaysian work permit and my family all have dependents passes so hadn't considered this either. Shame as the gulf in lifestyles between Malaysia and Singapore is considerable.
Your Malaysian Visa is how you are able to drive in and out of SG in a Malaysian car, and they are quite hot on it. However you are right on the standard of living and how far your buck will go there compared to in SG.
We're in 'Gateway' overlooking the 8th green, absolutely love living there. There are so many empty houses at the moment that we've been able to negotiate an incredible rental deal. How long ago did you purchase? We were thinking about buying but have missed the boat in terms of investment apparently.
tom5678 said:
We're in 'Gateway' overlooking the 8th green, absolutely love living there. There are so many empty houses at the moment that we've been able to negotiate an incredible rental deal. How long ago did you purchase? We were thinking about buying but have missed the boat in terms of investment apparently.
A few friends have places in the gateway .... i bought off plan nearly 4 years ago, completed 18 months ago, so i did quite nicely.
East Leeding is supposed to be a good development too, but there is just something about how Horizon Hills is run and laid out that works for me ...
"The Wetlands" should be coming up soon?
sadly no, that went the way these things do sometimes!Thanks all - we've also spoken to some friends on ex-pat packages around the world. Sadly as it's a young startup I'd need to be doing the lifting and shifting of the family mostly on my own back, so it's a no-go.
As it's a step up to management which is new for me and a new territory I think it's probably safer also to take the EMEA role. It's a shame, as it would be a wonderful opportunity I'd like to take.
As it's a step up to management which is new for me and a new territory I think it's probably safer also to take the EMEA role. It's a shame, as it would be a wonderful opportunity I'd like to take.
Berw said:
John you got more property than me, you still got the place in KL? Tom PM me if you are into going to Sepang, we will be there next weekend running in the Malaysian Super Series.
Excellent, thanks. Apologies for not replying to your PM sooner, will take a look at the race calendar and give you a shout if we head up. Cheers.Puggit said:
Thanks all - we've also spoken to some friends on ex-pat packages around the world. Sadly as it's a young startup I'd need to be doing the lifting and shifting of the family mostly on my own back, so it's a no-go.
As it's a step up to management which is new for me and a new territory I think it's probably safer also to take the EMEA role. It's a shame, as it would be a wonderful opportunity I'd like to take.
Unfortunate but based on what you have said there, probably the right decision. As it's a step up to management which is new for me and a new territory I think it's probably safer also to take the EMEA role. It's a shame, as it would be a wonderful opportunity I'd like to take.
I can recommend a good guy in Singapore to help you find a local / international person already located in Singapore to fill the APAC role if that's of any help to you? The percentage of good / bad recruiters in Asia is heavily weighted in the "don't touch them with a barge pole" camp.
Send me a PM if the contact is of any use.
Only just seen this..
Probably too late if you've decided on the EMEA role .. But even if you are not on a full expat package here - at $200k the tax savings compared to 100kGBP are significant ( overall 10% vs about 34-35% with NI?)
That's $50k increase in net pay.
I've been here getting on for 4 years - the expensive items are mainly alcohol, owning a car ( which not many expats do..) , and housing ( though rents cheaper now than the equivalent in London / Paris ).
Rents close to but just outside of town centre have dropped quite a bit over the past year or so. A friend rents a 4 bed house for less than $4k ( about 15 mins MRT to CBD-'used to be $5.5k) My gf owns a large landed house in a very upmarket local school catchment area. Used to get $9-10k/month - now $8k. ( large 5 bedder 3500-4000ft2 plus roof garden.. )
Given a choice of same decent gross salary in UK or here - I'd still live here - and even better if you can get some additional help with travel/ housing/ school.
Agree that school fees can be expensive - though some friends do have their kids in local schools - which have better records than local schools in UK
Probably too late if you've decided on the EMEA role .. But even if you are not on a full expat package here - at $200k the tax savings compared to 100kGBP are significant ( overall 10% vs about 34-35% with NI?)
That's $50k increase in net pay.
I've been here getting on for 4 years - the expensive items are mainly alcohol, owning a car ( which not many expats do..) , and housing ( though rents cheaper now than the equivalent in London / Paris ).
Rents close to but just outside of town centre have dropped quite a bit over the past year or so. A friend rents a 4 bed house for less than $4k ( about 15 mins MRT to CBD-'used to be $5.5k) My gf owns a large landed house in a very upmarket local school catchment area. Used to get $9-10k/month - now $8k. ( large 5 bedder 3500-4000ft2 plus roof garden.. )
Given a choice of same decent gross salary in UK or here - I'd still live here - and even better if you can get some additional help with travel/ housing/ school.
Agree that school fees can be expensive - though some friends do have their kids in local schools - which have better records than local schools in UK
alfaman said:
Agree that school fees can be expensive - though some friends do have their kids in local schools - which have better records than local schools in UK
its not easy getting into local schools, parents queue up for places the same as their kids do for new iPhones .... also not sure but i think you cannot enroll your kid in a local school until you are resident in Singapore (i.e. have your EP's etc - so a bit of a gamble) international school is $20 - 30k / nipper before all the other overheads that go with,.
XJSJohn said:
alfaman said:
Agree that school fees can be expensive - though some friends do have their kids in local schools - which have better records than local schools in UK
its not easy getting into local schools, parents queue up for places the same as their kids do for new iPhones .... also not sure but i think you cannot enroll your kid in a local school until you are resident in Singapore (i.e. have your EP's etc - so a bit of a gamble) international school is $20 - 30k / nipper before all the other overheads that go with,.
Brit friend of mine here (16 yrs in SG) has 2 girls in a local primary school.
Good school - but because he is not PR he goes to the bottom of the allocation queue .. So school not right in his neighborhood.
PRs get similar (same?) allocation rights as locals - and he reckons he has been rejected for PR purely because he has 2 kids ... Would add to competition against locals for school places.
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