Discussion
Guys,
For all you that are not red fans then im afraid this probably wont be the best question for you.
However i have decided on Red for my GTR, however due to body mods and horror stories re the Gel coat i have opted for the re spray route.
My question is s simple one, well i thought it was.
Which red????
Im thinking BMW Imola Red at present, but please let me know your thoughts, which red would best suit the bodywork etc.
Thanks
Mark
For all you that are not red fans then im afraid this probably wont be the best question for you.
However i have decided on Red for my GTR, however due to body mods and horror stories re the Gel coat i have opted for the re spray route.
My question is s simple one, well i thought it was.
Which red????
Im thinking BMW Imola Red at present, but please let me know your thoughts, which red would best suit the bodywork etc.
Thanks
Mark
Mark.....just be advised that red paint's are not that much easier to get on with than red gelcoat! They look great when fresh but go pink/burgundy with extended UV exposure, are generally poor in coverage (refinishing terms) and so result in a thicker overall paint finish, even when using modern water-based products under a clear lacquer.
If you want to go red, it might be best to choose a darker gel colour to give a good background for the red pigment..I would avoid red gel as your logical basis..... Reds and yellows in the car-body world are the two nightmare solid-colours.....most metallics are frequently much easier!
If you want to go red, it might be best to choose a darker gel colour to give a good background for the red pigment..I would avoid red gel as your logical basis..... Reds and yellows in the car-body world are the two nightmare solid-colours.....most metallics are frequently much easier!
Edited by 738 driver on Tuesday 31st March 21:55
Well that's 80ll0cked up the job, thanks 738driver ! V8Dom I was going to paint the Can-Am the same colour which "IS" a varient on Ford Radient Red, but now I don't know what to do ? will consult the paint shop tomorrow about the problems just pointed out. I have a month to sort things out before it is booked in. No emails Dom !
highflyer said:
Thanks Dave, I will see what my paint shop suggests, but will go with that, blimy its all testicle stuff this !! I only wanted to get rid of the black swirles in the gell coat around the filler caps, as I want the car perfect before I put her up for sale again.
Are you bowing out of the Ultima scene altogether Russ, first the GTR now the Can-Am ?Its a bit like life this 'Boy meets Car' game, 'Eyes meet across a room, a flirtatious courtship, a torrid love affair, sign on the dotted line followed by months of hot passion then POW !! its off to the divorce courts.
Steve
Edited to add in anticipation
Wanna do a swap for the wife, one (or so she says)careful owner ??
Edited by Captain Slog on Wednesday 1st April 00:05
738 driver said:
If its already red Russ, I suggest a mist coat of matt black before the colour goes on. It'll help avoid any decaying under colour having an effect on the topcoat! (a very good 'Old School' method Steve ) 
I would disagree as if you were going to re-spray a gel coat finished car the best option is to prime the whole car anyway if you were going to do it properly.Anyone who is simply flatting back the gelcoat and then dropping the basecoat straight on top is not prepping the vehicle properly.
however my car is done it will be top spec, the guy doing the job specialises with TVR Lotus and Marcos bodywork so is familiar with fiberglass and all the processes involved.
Steve I dropped a 8ollock by selling the Green GTR it was in a moment of madness and have been in mourning ever since so am now looking for another one, as for the swap the Can-Am for your wife with one careful owner, has she got full service history and is there any MOT or TAX left ? mine failed the MOT, but too buisy to fix it, would look for a new model but running costs too expensive.
Steve I dropped a 8ollock by selling the Green GTR it was in a moment of madness and have been in mourning ever since so am now looking for another one, as for the swap the Can-Am for your wife with one careful owner, has she got full service history and is there any MOT or TAX left ? mine failed the MOT, but too buisy to fix it, would look for a new model but running costs too expensive.
Edited by highflyer on Wednesday 1st April 08:40
Perhaps a short stint in modern refinishing would change your view Columbo.
Primers are adhesion promoters and although hi-builds are used to fill larger preparation imperfections their use should be minimised, particularly on GRP. And remember, primers are porus, they are not topcoats!
The way to correctly refinish is the same as the production line. Wet-on wet process.
On a straightforward glassfibre colour change, the GRP needs preparing, plastics adhesion priming (a mist almost clear coat), single coat wet on wet priming (thin coat), ground coat (if required for bleed protection), colour coats and final lacquer coats.
This whole process occurs during one visit through the oven as it gives best adhesion between coats and reduces the risk of contamination from moisture/silicone etc, all which will compromise the job.
The end product should be more or less gun finish as per a manufacturer and not two days of flatting and machine polishing as many choose to do.
If not get yourself some decent lads and freshen up your equipment...it'll be worth it!
Granted, this is not the 'Alf under the arches' method but is how its has been in serious refininshing for at least the last 15 years.
For anyone thats interested try some colour cards for yourself. Get your selection of old aerosols off the shelf and have a go with various colours. Use white card's on stick's, spray half of each card with primer, let it dry off then start to apply even colour coats to each
full card. You will see that blues, blacks etc cover much easier than reds, yellows and some greens. The edges of the grey primer against the white card will indicate when the material has covered fully.....sometimes after 7+ coats its not possible to actually cover fully using aerosol reds!
I think the reason GRP reds suffer is because red pigment in anything is easily broken down by UV and also GRP moulds will absorb more UV much quicker than metal bodies, the material is UV porus.
I dont know this for a fact but suspect the black swirl that people complain of is actually the black pigment part of the gel-coat colour. Black pigment will be mixed with red to give the final shade and also give it some UV durability, therefore as the red becomes UV bleached, the black pigment becomes visible as swilrs! If that red pigment breakdown continues over time, porus primer will not continue to hide it on a material like GRP. It maybe the case that the moulder actually applies two coats of gel using black as a background coat to give the red some depth and avoid an overly thick gelcoat layer. Whichever case, the red pigment is obviously still bleached away.
Hence the suggestion to mist a black ground coat on before your red topcoat.....wherever patches continue to degrade underneath, they cannot affect the topcoat shade anymore, as it has an even, solid black background ! The black is top-coat material 'not' primer (which as mentioned is porus) and black is far more resilient to UV.
When painted using this method the red topcoat paint will over time, still decay due to UV but as its thickness if far more uniform than gelcoat the decay will appear very subtle and even so will only show as a deepening red colour....not patchy swirls.
If you just grey prime the body you do run the risk of further UV breakdown and patchy areas appearing due to GPR UV porosity....the ongoing breakdown still continues under your paint.
You do have choices when painting your Ultima or any composite car.
Keep it out of the sun, visit the paintshop every two - four years or do the job to the best of your knowledge in the first instance. If I owned one of the old-fashioned shops I suppose I'd be tempted to do it the risky method and also be happy to take a few grand off you every few years.
My personal motor would not be done that way though!
You pays your money and takes your chance as they say.
Maybe the white undercoat suggestion was for the Can-Am's Steve ?.....the red topcoat pigment will slowly bleach away....going lighter. and actually will eventually turn a shade of........
......PINK!
Primers are adhesion promoters and although hi-builds are used to fill larger preparation imperfections their use should be minimised, particularly on GRP. And remember, primers are porus, they are not topcoats!
The way to correctly refinish is the same as the production line. Wet-on wet process.
On a straightforward glassfibre colour change, the GRP needs preparing, plastics adhesion priming (a mist almost clear coat), single coat wet on wet priming (thin coat), ground coat (if required for bleed protection), colour coats and final lacquer coats.
This whole process occurs during one visit through the oven as it gives best adhesion between coats and reduces the risk of contamination from moisture/silicone etc, all which will compromise the job.
The end product should be more or less gun finish as per a manufacturer and not two days of flatting and machine polishing as many choose to do.
If not get yourself some decent lads and freshen up your equipment...it'll be worth it!
Granted, this is not the 'Alf under the arches' method but is how its has been in serious refininshing for at least the last 15 years.
For anyone thats interested try some colour cards for yourself. Get your selection of old aerosols off the shelf and have a go with various colours. Use white card's on stick's, spray half of each card with primer, let it dry off then start to apply even colour coats to each
full card. You will see that blues, blacks etc cover much easier than reds, yellows and some greens. The edges of the grey primer against the white card will indicate when the material has covered fully.....sometimes after 7+ coats its not possible to actually cover fully using aerosol reds!
I think the reason GRP reds suffer is because red pigment in anything is easily broken down by UV and also GRP moulds will absorb more UV much quicker than metal bodies, the material is UV porus.
I dont know this for a fact but suspect the black swirl that people complain of is actually the black pigment part of the gel-coat colour. Black pigment will be mixed with red to give the final shade and also give it some UV durability, therefore as the red becomes UV bleached, the black pigment becomes visible as swilrs! If that red pigment breakdown continues over time, porus primer will not continue to hide it on a material like GRP. It maybe the case that the moulder actually applies two coats of gel using black as a background coat to give the red some depth and avoid an overly thick gelcoat layer. Whichever case, the red pigment is obviously still bleached away.
Hence the suggestion to mist a black ground coat on before your red topcoat.....wherever patches continue to degrade underneath, they cannot affect the topcoat shade anymore, as it has an even, solid black background ! The black is top-coat material 'not' primer (which as mentioned is porus) and black is far more resilient to UV.
When painted using this method the red topcoat paint will over time, still decay due to UV but as its thickness if far more uniform than gelcoat the decay will appear very subtle and even so will only show as a deepening red colour....not patchy swirls.
If you just grey prime the body you do run the risk of further UV breakdown and patchy areas appearing due to GPR UV porosity....the ongoing breakdown still continues under your paint.
You do have choices when painting your Ultima or any composite car.
Keep it out of the sun, visit the paintshop every two - four years or do the job to the best of your knowledge in the first instance. If I owned one of the old-fashioned shops I suppose I'd be tempted to do it the risky method and also be happy to take a few grand off you every few years.
My personal motor would not be done that way though!
You pays your money and takes your chance as they say.
Maybe the white undercoat suggestion was for the Can-Am's Steve ?.....the red topcoat pigment will slowly bleach away....going lighter. and actually will eventually turn a shade of........
......PINK!
738 driver said:
.......I think the reason GRP reds suffer is because red pigment in anything is easily broken down by UV and also GRP moulds will absorb more UV much quicker than metal bodies, the material is UV porus.
I dont know this for a fact but suspect the black swirl that people complain of is actually the black pigment part of the gel-coat colour. .......
As you say the red pigment progressively becomes transparent.I dont know this for a fact but suspect the black swirl that people complain of is actually the black pigment part of the gel-coat colour. .......
If the swirls were the black pigment mixed with red I would not be happy with the guys mixing technique.
The swirls are actually 'brush mark' in appearance so I suspect the red gel is applied by brush and as it becomes transparent the black coat the factory advise to apply to the back of panels shows through the uneven brush application of the gel.
Steve
highflyer said:
.................Steve I dropped a 8ollock by selling the Green GTR it was in a moment of madness and have been in mourning ever since so am now looking for another one, as for the swap the Can-Am for your wife with one careful owner, has she got full service history and is there any MOT or TAX left ? mine failed the MOT, but too buisy to fix it, would look for a new model but running costs too expensive.
Well the cylinders might need relining but other than that...............738 driver said:
Perhaps a short stint in modern refinishing would change your view Columbo.
Primers are adhesion promoters and although hi-builds are used to fill larger preparation imperfections their use should be minimised, particularly on GRP. And remember, primers are porus, they are not topcoats!
The way to correctly refinish is the same as the production line. Wet-on wet process.
On a straightforward glassfibre colour change, the GRP needs preparing, plastics adhesion priming (a mist almost clear coat), single coat wet on wet priming (thin coat), ground coat (if required for bleed protection), colour coats and final lacquer coats.
This whole process occurs during one visit through the oven as it gives best adhesion between coats and reduces the risk of contamination from moisture/silicone etc, all which will compromise the job.
The end product should be more or less gun finish as per a manufacturer and not two days of flatting and machine polishing as many choose to do.
If not get yourself some decent lads and freshen up your equipment...it'll be worth it!
Granted, this is not the 'Alf under the arches' method but is how its has been in serious refininshing for at least the last 15 years.
For anyone thats interested try some colour cards for yourself. Get your selection of old aerosols off the shelf and have a go with various colours. Use white card's on stick's, spray half of each card with primer, let it dry off then start to apply even colour coats to each
full card. You will see that blues, blacks etc cover much easier than reds, yellows and some greens. The edges of the grey primer against the white card will indicate when the material has covered fully.....sometimes after 7+ coats its not possible to actually cover fully using aerosol reds!
I think the reason GRP reds suffer is because red pigment in anything is easily broken down by UV and also GRP moulds will absorb more UV much quicker than metal bodies, the material is UV porus.
I dont know this for a fact but suspect the black swirl that people complain of is actually the black pigment part of the gel-coat colour. Black pigment will be mixed with red to give the final shade and also give it some UV durability, therefore as the red becomes UV bleached, the black pigment becomes visible as swilrs! If that red pigment breakdown continues over time, porus primer will not continue to hide it on a material like GRP. It maybe the case that the moulder actually applies two coats of gel using black as a background coat to give the red some depth and avoid an overly thick gelcoat layer. Whichever case, the red pigment is obviously still bleached away.
Hence the suggestion to mist a black ground coat on before your red topcoat.....wherever patches continue to degrade underneath, they cannot affect the topcoat shade anymore, as it has an even, solid black background ! The black is top-coat material 'not' primer (which as mentioned is porus) and black is far more resilient to UV.
When painted using this method the red topcoat paint will over time, still decay due to UV but as its thickness if far more uniform than gelcoat the decay will appear very subtle and even so will only show as a deepening red colour....not patchy swirls.
If you just grey prime the body you do run the risk of further UV breakdown and patchy areas appearing due to GPR UV porosity....the ongoing breakdown still continues under your paint.
You do have choices when painting your Ultima or any composite car.
Keep it out of the sun, visit the paintshop every two - four years or do the job to the best of your knowledge in the first instance. If I owned one of the old-fashioned shops I suppose I'd be tempted to do it the risky method and also be happy to take a few grand off you every few years.
My personal motor would not be done that way though!
You pays your money and takes your chance as they say.
Maybe the white undercoat suggestion was for the Can-Am's Steve ?.....the red topcoat pigment will slowly bleach away....going lighter. and actually will eventually turn a shade of........
......PINK!
Right thanks for that. I better re think!Primers are adhesion promoters and although hi-builds are used to fill larger preparation imperfections their use should be minimised, particularly on GRP. And remember, primers are porus, they are not topcoats!
The way to correctly refinish is the same as the production line. Wet-on wet process.
On a straightforward glassfibre colour change, the GRP needs preparing, plastics adhesion priming (a mist almost clear coat), single coat wet on wet priming (thin coat), ground coat (if required for bleed protection), colour coats and final lacquer coats.
This whole process occurs during one visit through the oven as it gives best adhesion between coats and reduces the risk of contamination from moisture/silicone etc, all which will compromise the job.
The end product should be more or less gun finish as per a manufacturer and not two days of flatting and machine polishing as many choose to do.
If not get yourself some decent lads and freshen up your equipment...it'll be worth it!
Granted, this is not the 'Alf under the arches' method but is how its has been in serious refininshing for at least the last 15 years.
For anyone thats interested try some colour cards for yourself. Get your selection of old aerosols off the shelf and have a go with various colours. Use white card's on stick's, spray half of each card with primer, let it dry off then start to apply even colour coats to each
full card. You will see that blues, blacks etc cover much easier than reds, yellows and some greens. The edges of the grey primer against the white card will indicate when the material has covered fully.....sometimes after 7+ coats its not possible to actually cover fully using aerosol reds!
I think the reason GRP reds suffer is because red pigment in anything is easily broken down by UV and also GRP moulds will absorb more UV much quicker than metal bodies, the material is UV porus.
I dont know this for a fact but suspect the black swirl that people complain of is actually the black pigment part of the gel-coat colour. Black pigment will be mixed with red to give the final shade and also give it some UV durability, therefore as the red becomes UV bleached, the black pigment becomes visible as swilrs! If that red pigment breakdown continues over time, porus primer will not continue to hide it on a material like GRP. It maybe the case that the moulder actually applies two coats of gel using black as a background coat to give the red some depth and avoid an overly thick gelcoat layer. Whichever case, the red pigment is obviously still bleached away.
Hence the suggestion to mist a black ground coat on before your red topcoat.....wherever patches continue to degrade underneath, they cannot affect the topcoat shade anymore, as it has an even, solid black background ! The black is top-coat material 'not' primer (which as mentioned is porus) and black is far more resilient to UV.
When painted using this method the red topcoat paint will over time, still decay due to UV but as its thickness if far more uniform than gelcoat the decay will appear very subtle and even so will only show as a deepening red colour....not patchy swirls.
If you just grey prime the body you do run the risk of further UV breakdown and patchy areas appearing due to GPR UV porosity....the ongoing breakdown still continues under your paint.
You do have choices when painting your Ultima or any composite car.
Keep it out of the sun, visit the paintshop every two - four years or do the job to the best of your knowledge in the first instance. If I owned one of the old-fashioned shops I suppose I'd be tempted to do it the risky method and also be happy to take a few grand off you every few years.
My personal motor would not be done that way though!
You pays your money and takes your chance as they say.
Maybe the white undercoat suggestion was for the Can-Am's Steve ?.....the red topcoat pigment will slowly bleach away....going lighter. and actually will eventually turn a shade of........
......PINK!
Ill have a word with the paintshop that paints the mclaren SLR's Carbon Parts and Bumpers as they are doing it all wrong,as well as the Marcos Showcars that I have prepped and painted!
And so are koenigsegg at the factory, and so were TVR
I agree wet on wet for modern cars is the way to go, and I frequently do on some small metalwork repairs, or a new plastic bumper. But definately not for a full car in GRP No Way! And you know as well as I do the adhesion is not as good!
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