Fuel tanks for fuel injection and cooling plumbing

[Davrianman]

Hi there,

I have 2 questions for you gents :-) I hope you may be able to guide me a bit...

Are there any mods that need to be made to the standard Ultima fuel tanks if you are running fuel injection? I am using a Kinsler setup (same as Wayne's) on my 434ci. Was going to run 2 non return valves from the tanks to 2 lift pumps into a 1.5L swirl pot. From there on to 1 high pressure main pump through an Aeromotive regulator to the fuel rails... I think this should work OK, but I'm not sure how to set up the link pipes / overflow return to tanks from the swirl pot...

Also.. I want to run an electric water pump setup and I am wondering where I need to plumb in the heater hoses...Is it off the cylinder heads or the block? My engine is being built at the moment, so unfortunately I dont have it here to work it out. I am just running the heater hoses from the aircon, so I want to know how long to make the in the engine bay.

Hope you can help me out!

Cheers,

Mart

[Graham-P]

Martin, are you running the heater hoses through the luggage container?
Mine still get very warm and heat the container up, if I were to do it again I would run them under the container and try to lag the container bottom with sound deadner/reflective matting. Run the hoses so that they reach the drivers side (ie.fuel tank) then cut them to length.

[CanAm Dave]

Davrianman said:

Hi there,

I have 2 questions for you gents :-) I hope you may be able to guide me a bit...

Are there any mods that need to be made to the standard Ultima fuel tanks if you are running fuel injection? I am using a Kinsler setup (same as Wayne's) on my 434ci. Was going to run 2 non return valves from the tanks to 2 lift pumps into a 1.5L swirl pot. From there on to 1 high pressure main pump through an Aeromotive regulator to the fuel rails... I think this should work OK, but I'm not sure how to set up the link pipes / overflow return to tanks from the swirl pot...

Also.. I want to run an electric water pump setup and I am wondering where I need to plumb in the heater hoses...Is it off the cylinder heads or the block? My engine is being built at the moment, so unfortunately I dont have it here to work it out. I am just running the heater hoses from the aircon, so I want to know how long to make the in the engine bay.

Hope you can help me out!

Cheers,

Mart

Hi Mart

Your setup is the same as most of us running EFI. A pic of mine below.



I return the fuel to the tank from which it came via a Pollak valve as seen in the pics below. I have a switch on the dash to switch it it to return left or right. It's also handy for transfering fuel from one tank to another.




My swirl pot has three connection near the top, two on one side and one on the other. Of the two the top one is return from the reg and the lower the fuel feed from the tanks. The single one on the other side is the return to the tanks via the Pollak valve.

The water feed to the heater should come via an outlet in the inlet manifold and the return should feed either into the pump or the return pipe to the engine. I run an electric pump on mine and this was my solution for the heater return seen in the pic below.



A link to the Pollak valve supplier http://www.biotuning.co.uk/PartsValves.htm

Regards Dave

[CanAm Dave]

Hi Mart

If I was building a new Ultima then I would do the fueling differently. I would link the tanks low down with a -12 hose and feed a single high pressure pump from a -10 outlet. Much more simple, but the tanks would need modifying which is why I went the other route as my car was already built before I went EFI.

Regards Dave

[Davrianman]

Graham-P said:

Martin, are you running the heater hoses through the luggage container?
Mine still get very warm and heat the container up, if I were to do it again I would run them under the container and try to lag the container bottom with sound deadner/reflective matting. Run the hoses so that they reach the drivers side (ie.fuel tank) then cut them to length.

Hi Graham,

Just about to run them now, but I had thought about running below the containers. Only problem is getting round the corner into the engine bay where the container meets the chassis, as this area is very tight and I dont think there is enough clearance between the container and pod to go underneath. I have also bought a manual shutoff valve that I was going to install in the return line to isolate and hopefully avoid heat soak in the summer... Have you lagged your heater pipes in anything? Thanks for the advice on the hose lengths. Will just about reach.
Mart

[Davrianman]

CanAm Dave said:

Hi Mart

If I was building a new Ultima then I would do the fueling differently. I would link the tanks low down with a -12 hose and feed a single high pressure pump from a -10 outlet. Much more simple, but the tanks would need modifying which is why I went the other route as my car was already built before I went EFI.

Regards Dave

Hi Dave,

This is also what I was thinking of hence the question. Would it only be modifying the port sizes? If so I wonder if Ultima would get built to spec.. (about to order the tanks now)... Would be a lot simpler. I could do myself as I have just bought a TIG welder, but it may damage the internal foam?? Does anyone know who actually makes the tanks? May be worth asking them...

I am interested in your idea of the switching valve for the return line fuel. Why did you use that aproach instead of a 't' piece back to both tanks? If you forget to 'manage' the fuel flow back to tanks, is there a danger of overflowing one tank? I'm interested to hear your thoughts behind it as it's a very clever solution.

Thanks for all the pictures and the link. Looks like my new welder may come in handy for all those complicated hose joints :-)

Cheers,

Mart

[crafty]

Mart,

I ran my all my AC, heater and coolant pipes outside the pods - here's a thread about how I did it- I lagged them with foam used for industrial AC units. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

As for welding the tanks... I ordered mine with -12 fittings all round. I cant remember why, but at one stage I asked the factory about welding the tanks, they said that the tanks are welded with the foam in them. They use a stick down the filler hole to pull the foam away from the area being welded.

[pilbeam_mp62]

CanAm Dave said:

Hi Mart

If I was building a new Ultima then I would do the fueling differently. I would link the tanks low down with a -12 hose and feed a single high pressure pump from a -10 outlet. Much more simple, but the tanks would need modifying which is why I went the other route as my car was already built before I went EFI.

Regards Dave

Dave,

I have just ordered stages 1 to 14 and I intend to fit the LS7 engine. Do you think the tank outlets
that come as standard will be OK for the fuelling for that engine, or do you think I should ask the factory to make the tanks as you describe above ?

They know that I am tending towards the LS7, but maybe they make all the tanks identical ?

Thanks very much for your help.
Regards

Kelvin

[crafty]

I have a supercharged LS2 in mine, 580HP and very similar curve to the stock LS7.

I didnt know where I was going with the fuel at the start so I had my tank made with -12 fittings all round.

I have one -12 line linking the front outlets... the rear two have a -12 line with a Tee in it - drops down to -8 all the way to the Walbro pump, then -6 after the pump up to the fuel rails.

The return line is -6 and I had to step up from -6 to -12 at the tank.

If I were you I would go for:

-12 for the cross over (front fittings)
- 8 for the fuel feed (rear fittings with bent pipe inside)
-6 for return (top fittings)

Edited by crafty on Wednesday 12th September 08:09

If using a Walbro pump they are -8 inlet. If you are going for another pump you may want to go larger (-10 as Dave said)

Edited by crafty on Wednesday 12th September 08:11

[Pb3]

I implemented something similar to Dave, I too used a switchable return valve but mine is wired directly to the right hand pump so it is not possible to 'forget' to switch it. Although I like the idea of being able to pump fuel between tanks.

This is what I used, a 3 port biofuel electric valve (I got this off ebay for £35):


Here is a picture of it installed:

The return comes from the top of my surge tank, this is then routed to the left and right fuel tanks, returning to the top ports.

Edited to add:

Low and high fuel circuit diagrams, as per Dave, complicated a little by the fact that this was an EFI conversion!

Edited by Pb3 on Wednesday 12th September 08:39

[CanAm Dave]

Hi Mart

Part of my thinking was a concern of overflow but also if one low pressure pump fails any returning fuel will only return to the tank in use.

Hi Kelvin

From what I remember of the factories new LS7 install it is still using the standard -6 fittings. I would do as Crafty suggests and run a -12 linking the tanks. -10 or -8 to feed the pump and a -6 return at the top of the tank. The -12 link makes life much easier to fill up at the pumps. Meaning that you only have to fill up from one side.

Regards Dave

[pilbeam_mp62]

Thank you very much for the input Dave

Phil - are your diagrams from an LS7 installation , or perhaps this installation would suit an LS7 anyway ??

Excuse my ignorance - I will have a lot to learn when it comes to the difficult parts on my Ultima build !!

Regards

Kelvin

Edited by pilbeam_mp62 on Wednesday 12th September 14:17

[ROWDYRENAULT]

Hi guys: I like simple, ran a 1.25 tube from left to right tank to bungs welded at the very bottom of the side of the tanks. The cars fills from either side almost as quickly as a standard car. Ran the two factory outlets via -6 hardline to a y to a single -6 feed through a aeromotive pump through a aeromotive filter out to a y to the two fuel rails on the ls1 motor through the pressure regulator out two return lines one to each tank. used only the left side fuel gauge. used the right side fuel gauge opening for a breather to a charcol canister. It all works. by the way the pump is mounted on a plate which is rubber mounted to the bottom of the frame right side. That puts the pump inlet below the tank and insures head pressure at the pump. Welding on the tanks was not a problem, stuck a peice of metal through the gauge opening and pushed foam away from welding area for bung no problems incured. Lee

[Davrianman]

Thanks for the info chaps,

I had a chat to Rich at the factory today and he described the factory LS7 solution which seems very simple.

Basically it consists of a 6 way biofuel valve (like yours Dave) to switch feed and returns from either tank, and a single high pressure pump, reg and filter to feed the engine. It's all run in '6 (1/4&quot line.

Rich said that they have tested this system extensively and that it is good for 800+bhp even though it's only in '6 pipe. I started doing some fluid flow calcs today, but unfortunately work got in the way :-( If I get chance I'll do them tomorrow and post some real calculated pressure losses etc.

The only 'problem', if it is a problem, with this setup is that you effectively have 2 seperate tanks with no cross linkage. Richard said there was a danger of fuel surge which could result in engine damage from linking the tanks. I didn't quite understand why, but he told me that the factory had tested it, and I'm sure they have. Is this possible during a long fast corner if you are using the tank on the inside of the corner and all the fuel surges to the other side? I guess that it could be a problem.

I do like the sound of this setup though because:
1. It's simple
2. It's safer?
3. It's cheap

What are your thoughts?

Mart

Just another thing... Been looking at the pollak valve and it is only good for 65psi. I'm using a Kinsler setup same as Wayne. I was told that this needs to run at a high pressure, but I'm not sure what. My injectors are Bosch green... Will these need more than 65psi?

Edited by Davrianman on Wednesday 12th September 22:22

[CanAm Dave]

Davrianman said:

Just another thing... Been looking at the pollak valve and it is only good for 65psi. I'm using a Kinsler setup same as Wayne. I was told that this needs to run at a high pressure, but I'm not sure what. My injectors are Bosch green... Will these need more than 65psi?

Hi Mart

The Kinsler system normally runs at 75psi, which is what Waynes runs at. This was another reason I only used the Pollak valve to switch the return from the reg, it has no pressure to speak of. I agree for the LS7 the factory setup is fine and -6 can be ok for 800bhp normally aspirated.

Regards Dave

[Pb3]

pilbeam_mp62 said:

Phil - are your diagrams from an LS7 installation , or perhaps this installation would suit an LS7 anyway ??

These diagrams I did to help me work out my SBC EFI conversion. As was said before a new installation could be made simplier, but I had run with a Holley carb for 2 years prior to going down the MegaSquirt DIY injection path.

Also as Dave has just said, we both have the fuel port switch in the return to the tanks so pressure ratings are not really important. However, I found that this does cause a small restriction, but does allow the surge tank to 'pressurise' slightly, which will help the 'gravitiy' feed to the high pressure fuel pump.

[ultimad]

CanAm Dave said:

Davrianman said:

Just another thing... Been looking at the pollak valve and it is only good for 65psi. I'm using a Kinsler setup same as Wayne. I was told that this needs to run at a high pressure, but I'm not sure what. My injectors are Bosch green... Will these need more than 65psi?

Hi Mart

The Kinsler system normally runs at 75psi, which is what Waynes runs at. This was another reason I only used the Pollak valve to switch the return from the reg, it has no pressure to speak of. I agree for the LS7 the factory setup is fine and -6 can be ok for 800bhp normally aspirated.

Regards Dave

Hi Dave. Why would -6 be ok for 800bhp+ only for normally aspirated ? What would supercharging require at say 800BHP and why ?

[andygtt]

Davrianman said:

Thanks for the info chaps,
The only 'problem', if it is a problem, with this setup is that you effectively have 2 seperate tanks with no cross linkage. Richard said there was a danger of fuel surge which could result in engine damage from linking the tanks. I didn't quite understand why, but he told me that the factory had tested it, and I'm sure they have. Is this possible during a long fast corner if you are using the tank on the inside of the corner and all the fuel surges to the other side? I guess that it could be a problem.

If the fuel can surge from one side of the car to the other through a small link pipe then I think the fuel pickup being at the front on one side would be a much bigger issue.... also the link pipe is not at the lowest part of the tank unlike the fuel pickups so all the fuel can't surge from side to side.

Incidentally my canam ran a link pipe and 5years on has never suffered any fueling issues.....
I'd use as similar system to the diagram above as its far safer.

[CanAm Dave]

ultimad said:

CanAm Dave said:

Davrianman said:

Just another thing... Been looking at the pollak valve and it is only good for 65psi. I'm using a Kinsler setup same as Wayne. I was told that this needs to run at a high pressure, but I'm not sure what. My injectors are Bosch green... Will these need more than 65psi?

Hi Mart

The Kinsler system normally runs at 75psi, which is what Waynes runs at. This was another reason I only used the Pollak valve to switch the return from the reg, it has no pressure to speak of. I agree for the LS7 the factory setup is fine and -6 can be ok for 800bhp normally aspirated.

Regards Dave

Hi Dave. Why would -6 be ok for 800bhp+ only for normally aspirated ? What would supercharging require at say 800BHP and why ?

Hi Andy

If your talking carbs then its not a problem as long as your pump can handle the flow. Most of the injection pumps are rated at a given bhp normally aspirated. The reason is down to the (BSFC) Brake Specific Fuel Consumption. Which is the lbs of fuel an engine consumes per HP per hour. It is simply a measure of how efficiently an engine is at converting fuel to horsepower. These figures are used when calculating injector sizes. General guidelines when choosing a BSFC number:
Low to medium performance street engines: 0.50-.55
Performance engines with good cyl. heads: 0.45-.50
Race engines with very efficient cyl. heads: 0.38 - 0.45
Supercharged and Turbocharged engines: 0.55 - 0.65

A supercharged engine as in my case consumes more fuel for a given horsepower than a naturally aspirated engine.

Regards Dave
www.v8yes.co.uk

[ultimad]

CanAm Dave said:

ultimad said:

CanAm Dave said:

Davrianman said:

Just another thing... Been looking at the pollak valve and it is only good for 65psi. I'm using a Kinsler setup same as Wayne. I was told that this needs to run at a high pressure, but I'm not sure what. My injectors are Bosch green... Will these need more than 65psi?

Hi Mart

The Kinsler system normally runs at 75psi, which is what Waynes runs at. This was another reason I only used the Pollak valve to switch the return from the reg, it has no pressure to speak of. I agree for the LS7 the factory setup is fine and -6 can be ok for 800bhp normally aspirated.

Regards Dave

Hi Dave. Why would -6 be ok for 800bhp+ only for normally aspirated ? What would supercharging require at say 800BHP and why ?

Hi Andy

If your talking carbs then its not a problem as long as your pump can handle the flow. Most of the injection pumps are rated at a given bhp normally aspirated. The reason is down to the (BSFC) Brake Specific Fuel Consumption. Which is the lbs of fuel an engine consumes per HP per hour. It is simply a measure of how efficiently an engine is at converting fuel to horsepower. These figures are used when calculating injector sizes. General guidelines when choosing a BSFC number:
Low to medium performance street engines: 0.50-.55
Performance engines with good cyl. heads: 0.45-.50
Race engines with very efficient cyl. heads: 0.38 - 0.45
Supercharged and Turbocharged engines: 0.55 - 0.65

A supercharged engine as in my case consumes more fuel for a given horsepower than a naturally aspirated engine.

Regards Dave
www.v8yes.co.uk

As you know I have the factory standard setup. The Carter pump's flow rate is up to it but is not rated high enough wrt pressure (8psi and I need about double that + a bit), so I need to look at alternatives. I now face the dilemma of replacing two pumps with two expensive alternatives (less hassle) or thinking about a way of using only one expensive pump. Any useful ideas would be welcome at this point