BMW M3 engine + Boxster transmission?
Discussion
Hey guys,
I know I haven't been here in a while but was thinking about my potential Ultima Project. If I were to do an S50 E36 M3 engine I realized there wouldn't really be a necessity for a G50, a 986 boxster engine could easily support all the torque I could throw at it. I am assuming I'd probably need the Boxster S 6-speed (S came with 250HP / 225 torque almost identical to the BMW M3 engine). The regular boxster 5-speed only came with 201HP so I don't know if it will be able to handle the extra torque from the M3 engine. My M3 engine all said and done will put out about 300HP which I'm hoping the Boxster S tranny will be able to support without breaking. Also the gear ratios on the Boxster transmissions make much more sense for a lower powered Ultima than the bigger V8s....
Boxster S tranny ratios:
3.82
2.20
1.52
1.22
1.02
.84
FD= 3.44
These are shorter than most of the G50s which have much longer gearing so even if it was under powered it would still have gearing to its advantage. also another thing I noticed was that the G50 is a massive peice where as the Boxster trannies are much smaller and more compact (and I am assuming lighter). B/c the S50 M3 engine is much lighter (by about 140lbs than the chevy small block) and the tranny will probably be lighter, I figure the lower weight & more aggressive gearing will still help it be pretty quick. The Belcar M3 powered Ultimas have really inspired me to go this route so I'm just trying to plan it ahead of time so when the time comes I can jump right into it.
What do you guys think? Thx in advance for the help.
I know I haven't been here in a while but was thinking about my potential Ultima Project. If I were to do an S50 E36 M3 engine I realized there wouldn't really be a necessity for a G50, a 986 boxster engine could easily support all the torque I could throw at it. I am assuming I'd probably need the Boxster S 6-speed (S came with 250HP / 225 torque almost identical to the BMW M3 engine). The regular boxster 5-speed only came with 201HP so I don't know if it will be able to handle the extra torque from the M3 engine. My M3 engine all said and done will put out about 300HP which I'm hoping the Boxster S tranny will be able to support without breaking. Also the gear ratios on the Boxster transmissions make much more sense for a lower powered Ultima than the bigger V8s....
Boxster S tranny ratios:
3.82
2.20
1.52
1.22
1.02
.84
FD= 3.44
These are shorter than most of the G50s which have much longer gearing so even if it was under powered it would still have gearing to its advantage. also another thing I noticed was that the G50 is a massive peice where as the Boxster trannies are much smaller and more compact (and I am assuming lighter). B/c the S50 M3 engine is much lighter (by about 140lbs than the chevy small block) and the tranny will probably be lighter, I figure the lower weight & more aggressive gearing will still help it be pretty quick. The Belcar M3 powered Ultimas have really inspired me to go this route so I'm just trying to plan it ahead of time so when the time comes I can jump right into it.
What do you guys think? Thx in advance for the help.
Edited by OmeyHomey on Wednesday 27th June 10:26
Sounds like a plan. As much as I love the ludicrous amount of torque from my SBC and the ability to pull like a train in any gear, I think the route that you are going down will give a totally different feel to the car and may make it more drivable in everyday conditions. Loads of power, whilst nice, is not the way to go in my opinion. Less more exploitable power is the way to go and combined with weight saving mods ( ie. using a lighter box for one although the engine will be a little heavier like for like I would think ), you can not lose IMO.
Thanks Wayne,
Ya I would rather be able to use 100% of the HP in all conditions and still have plenty of grip left over then be on the absolute edge all the time. To me as long as the car can keep up with a 911TT (high 3s 0-60 ) I will be happy. Well the Chevy 350 is 575 lbs (correct me if I am wrong) and the M3 engine (in cast iron form) is 425 however this includes the heavy cast iron manifolds (which i'd remove). Also remember the M3 engine will only have one exhaust track instead of two (one per bank on the V8) so thats even more weight savings right there. Also the one thing I really like is the Boxster S tranny is a 6 speed making it perfet for cruising or anything. In addition the Boxster 6speed also takes up alot less room allowing me to run a special exhaust system for the M3 engine. Also another great thing would be the cost savings of the whole project. I can get an entire E36 M3 for $5-6k and just transfer over as much as I need from the donor car and then sell off the rest paying for the drivetrain and etc itself so it makes business sense as well. The Ultima is roughly 2178lbs (corrected) in V8 form. If I could somehow keep it under 2000lbs and get it close to Lotus Elise weight that would still be a very potent package even if it had 300 less HP than its bigger V8 brothers.
Thanks for your comments guys.
Ya I would rather be able to use 100% of the HP in all conditions and still have plenty of grip left over then be on the absolute edge all the time. To me as long as the car can keep up with a 911TT (high 3s 0-60 ) I will be happy. Well the Chevy 350 is 575 lbs (correct me if I am wrong) and the M3 engine (in cast iron form) is 425 however this includes the heavy cast iron manifolds (which i'd remove). Also remember the M3 engine will only have one exhaust track instead of two (one per bank on the V8) so thats even more weight savings right there. Also the one thing I really like is the Boxster S tranny is a 6 speed making it perfet for cruising or anything. In addition the Boxster 6speed also takes up alot less room allowing me to run a special exhaust system for the M3 engine. Also another great thing would be the cost savings of the whole project. I can get an entire E36 M3 for $5-6k and just transfer over as much as I need from the donor car and then sell off the rest paying for the drivetrain and etc itself so it makes business sense as well. The Ultima is roughly 2178lbs (corrected) in V8 form. If I could somehow keep it under 2000lbs and get it close to Lotus Elise weight that would still be a very potent package even if it had 300 less HP than its bigger V8 brothers.
Thanks for your comments guys.
Edited by OmeyHomey on Wednesday 27th June 20:36
Edited by OmeyHomey on Thursday 28th June 04:34
OmeyHomey said:
The Ultima is roughly 3178lbs in V8 form.
Eh? Where'd you get that nonsense figure from?Mine is approx 1040kg wet, or 2288 pounds with a cast iron small block chevy v8 sitting in the back...
If you want to save weight, switch to a newer style chevy LSX series V8, or perhaps forget a piston engine entirely and get a 20B triple rotor Mazda engine in there with a big fat turbo on it...
Yeh your a little out with the weight 1050kgs (2300 lbs) wet seems to be the norm (well for all the SBC cars i have seen properly corner weighted)....
Now I have an E36 M3 and I love the engine to bits, but I don't think its the lightweight you think it is as it also has an iron block... the main saving IMO would be in putting on smaller wheels and brakes, I know you can lose over 50kgs here.
You also need to be aware that the E36 has an 'ahem' optomistic power rating.
Now I have an E36 M3 and I love the engine to bits, but I don't think its the lightweight you think it is as it also has an iron block... the main saving IMO would be in putting on smaller wheels and brakes, I know you can lose over 50kgs here.
You also need to be aware that the E36 has an 'ahem' optomistic power rating.
hehe woops, fat finger... meant 2178 not 3178 (as per ultima website, they claim 990kg is the weight w/ SBC). I would like to keep it under 2000lbs if possible, will be hard but I'll see if its possible.
What you mean? the E36 does make 240HP & 225 torque? I dynoed and it matched up perfectly with claims. Fully modded NA you can hit 300hp with the right mods which honestly is all the power i'd ever want in an ultima that was lighter than avg with more aggressive gearing.
Edited by OmeyHomey on Thursday 28th June 04:16
What you mean? the E36 does make 240HP & 225 torque? I dynoed and it matched up perfectly with claims. Fully modded NA you can hit 300hp with the right mods which honestly is all the power i'd ever want in an ultima that was lighter than avg with more aggressive gearing.
Edited by OmeyHomey on Thursday 28th June 04:33
andygtt said:
Yeh your a little out with the weight 1050kgs (2300 lbs) wet seems to be the norm (well for all the SBC cars i have seen properly corner weighted)....
Now I have an E36 M3 and I love the engine to bits, but I don't think its the lightweight you think it is as it also has an iron block... the main saving IMO would be in putting on smaller wheels and brakes, I know you can lose over 50kgs here.
You also need to be aware that the E36 has an 'ahem' optomistic power rating.
Andy I know its cast iron (thats partly why it sounds so damn good). I had a heavily modified E36 M3 for many years and absolutely fell in love with that engine. Its not about HP or speed to me, its the sentimental value that engine brings (reminds me of the good ol' days). The engine is ligher than SBC (although not by a huge amount). It may not be as light as LS1 (not sure on LS1 weight but most probably lighter than the S50) but to me I'd rather have quality of power vs. quantity of power (no offense to anyone). If I build my dream car its going to be b/c I have an emotional connection to the car and it has sentimental value to me, not b/c it has XXX HP (if that makes any sense). Now I have an E36 M3 and I love the engine to bits, but I don't think its the lightweight you think it is as it also has an iron block... the main saving IMO would be in putting on smaller wheels and brakes, I know you can lose over 50kgs here.
You also need to be aware that the E36 has an 'ahem' optomistic power rating.
In fact, for me after having been in a new modified Z06 I realized there IS such a thing as too fast (for me at least) so after a certain point IMO theres really no need to go any faster. Everyone has a different "safety zone" that they like to stay in. Theres a very fine line between extremely fun and just downright scary haha. And also.... At least I can set a new world record... Slowest Ultima GTR in the world
lol Again thanks for the input
Edited by OmeyHomey on Thursday 28th June 04:31
OmeyHomey said:
hehe woops, fat finger... meant 2178 not 3178 (as per ultima website, they claim 990kg is the weight w/ SBC). I would like to keep it under 2000lbs if possible, will be hard but I'll see if its possible.
What you mean? the E36 does make 240HP & 225 torque? I dynoed and it matched up perfectly with claims. Fully modded NA you can hit 300hp with the right mods which honestly is all the power i'd ever want in an ultima that was lighter than avg with more aggressive gearing.
I see you are talking about US M3 which is basically a slightly modded 328 engine in Euro speak..... My M3 is an EVO and in Euro spec it is claimed at 321bhp as std, but IMO its not quite 300bhp.Edited by OmeyHomey on Thursday 28th June 04:16
What you mean? the E36 does make 240HP & 225 torque? I dynoed and it matched up perfectly with claims. Fully modded NA you can hit 300hp with the right mods which honestly is all the power i'd ever want in an ultima that was lighter than avg with more aggressive gearing.
Edited by OmeyHomey on Thursday 28th June 04:33
But it does go to 7800rpm and has gone on forever delivering 30mpg which is why I love it.... sounds awsome as well with the Snitzer Exhaust I have.
Boys and toys
here a nice list how heavy BMW engine's are, the M3 is still a bit "heavy" compare it to the lightweight M62 (4.4i and 4.6i) bmw engine and you find that the V8 is ligther
its all alu I guess, and My Hartge uses such M62 4.6 to start with, its now a 5.0L made by Hartge and 420hp but add a supercharger on it that Hartge also delivers and you can get 550hp
http://www.bimmerforums.com/engine_faq/
GTRene
here a nice list how heavy BMW engine's are, the M3 is still a bit "heavy" compare it to the lightweight M62 (4.4i and 4.6i) bmw engine and you find that the V8 is ligther its all alu I guess, and My Hartge uses such M62 4.6 to start with, its now a 5.0L made by Hartge and 420hp but add a supercharger on it that Hartge also delivers and you can get 550hphttp://www.bimmerforums.com/engine_faq/
GTRene
Edited by GTRene on Thursday 28th June 09:27
Again....
I know this is a VERY hard concept for you Ultima guys (on your never ending quest for more HP haha), but HP doesn't mean a lot to me. I want S50 regardless of how much more power combo XYZ will give me (I know, call me weird ) . Either way s50 is light enough for me in my book so thats what I'll use and 300HP is all I will need in the Ultima w/ the right gearing and weight reduction. Cast iron may be heavy but it has the best sound properties by far, plus it lasts forever and is practically indestructible.
Has anyone here driven Boxster S? I want to know what the tranny shifts like and if you like the gearing spacing and etc. Also can I use BMW M3 clutch & Flywheel setup or should I use the porsches? . any help is appreciated. thanks
I know this is a VERY hard concept for you Ultima guys (on your never ending quest for more HP haha), but HP doesn't mean a lot to me. I want S50 regardless of how much more power combo XYZ will give me
(I know, call me weird ) . Either way s50 is light enough for me in my book so thats what I'll use and 300HP is all I will need in the Ultima w/ the right gearing and weight reduction. Cast iron may be heavy but it has the best sound properties by far, plus it lasts forever and is practically indestructible. Has anyone here driven Boxster S? I want to know what the tranny shifts like and if you like the gearing spacing and etc. Also can I use BMW M3 clutch & Flywheel setup or should I use the porsches? . any help is appreciated. thanks
OmeyHomey said:
Again....
I know this is a VERY hard concept for you Ultima guys (on your never ending quest for more HP haha), but HP doesn't mean a lot to me. I want S50 regardless of how much more power combo XYZ will give me (I know, call me weird ) . Either way s50 is light enough for me in my book so thats what I'll use and 300HP is all I will need in the Ultima w/ the right gearing and weight reduction. Cast iron may be heavy but it has the best sound properties by far, plus it lasts forever and is practically indestructible.
Has anyone here driven Boxster S? I want to know what the tranny shifts like and if you like the gearing spacing and etc. Also can I use BMW M3 clutch & Flywheel setup or should I use the porsches? . any help is appreciated. thanks
We have a Boxster S and its a loverly box, shift is fantastic.... also the engine sounds quite sweet, but my older M3 engine runs rings round it in EVERY respect even though they are both 3.2 and striaght 6's.I know this is a VERY hard concept for you Ultima guys (on your never ending quest for more HP haha), but HP doesn't mean a lot to me. I want S50 regardless of how much more power combo XYZ will give me
(I know, call me weird ) . Either way s50 is light enough for me in my book so thats what I'll use and 300HP is all I will need in the Ultima w/ the right gearing and weight reduction. Cast iron may be heavy but it has the best sound properties by far, plus it lasts forever and is practically indestructible. Has anyone here driven Boxster S? I want to know what the tranny shifts like and if you like the gearing spacing and etc. Also can I use BMW M3 clutch & Flywheel setup or should I use the porsches? . any help is appreciated. thanks
I agree the engine box combo would make a nice Ultima especially if you take the opertunity to remove 50-80kgs from the unsprung weight as you wouldn't need the huge tyres and brakes.
I suspect you'd have to use the porsche clutch etc as all the BMW's I have stripped have much larger flywheels etc than the bellhousing on the G50's and I think the boxster is a samller box than the G50....
andygtt said:
OmeyHomey said:
Again....
I know this is a VERY hard concept for you Ultima guys (on your never ending quest for more HP haha), but HP doesn't mean a lot to me. I want S50 regardless of how much more power combo XYZ will give me (I know, call me weird ) . Either way s50 is light enough for me in my book so thats what I'll use and 300HP is all I will need in the Ultima w/ the right gearing and weight reduction. Cast iron may be heavy but it has the best sound properties by far, plus it lasts forever and is practically indestructible.
Has anyone here driven Boxster S? I want to know what the tranny shifts like and if you like the gearing spacing and etc. Also can I use BMW M3 clutch & Flywheel setup or should I use the porsches? . any help is appreciated. thanks
We have a Boxster S and its a loverly box, shift is fantastic.... also the engine sounds quite sweet, but my older M3 engine runs rings round it in EVERY respect even though they are both 3.2 and striaght 6's.I know this is a VERY hard concept for you Ultima guys (on your never ending quest for more HP haha), but HP doesn't mean a lot to me. I want S50 regardless of how much more power combo XYZ will give me
(I know, call me weird ) . Either way s50 is light enough for me in my book so thats what I'll use and 300HP is all I will need in the Ultima w/ the right gearing and weight reduction. Cast iron may be heavy but it has the best sound properties by far, plus it lasts forever and is practically indestructible. Has anyone here driven Boxster S? I want to know what the tranny shifts like and if you like the gearing spacing and etc. Also can I use BMW M3 clutch & Flywheel setup or should I use the porsches? . any help is appreciated. thanks
I agree the engine box combo would make a nice Ultima especially if you take the opertunity to remove 50-80kgs from the unsprung weight as you wouldn't need the huge tyres and brakes.
I suspect you'd have to use the porsche clutch etc as all the BMW's I have stripped have much larger flywheels etc than the bellhousing on the G50's and I think the boxster is a samller box than the G50....
straight 6 the porsche boys will lynch you
i do have a special on pitch forks at the moment spare from the candy run lynching on hold
Well the porsche boys should be ashamed if they think that the Boxster is a great engine, our Boxster is a 2001 S so it is a 3.2L straight 6 with 252bhp.
The M3 is a 1996 E36 evo with 3 times the mileage and is worth around £4k.... it also has a 3.2L straight 6 but alegedly produces 321bhp... and it IS faster in a straight line AND desipite being heavier it returns a much better MPG.
Even my 7 seater people carrier can keep up with the Boxster in a straight line.
Of cause the Boxster runs rings around the M3 most notably on the brakes and IMO its a better car than the M3.... but think what it would be like if it had a proper engine like the M's.
The M3 is a 1996 E36 evo with 3 times the mileage and is worth around £4k.... it also has a 3.2L straight 6 but alegedly produces 321bhp... and it IS faster in a straight line AND desipite being heavier it returns a much better MPG.
Even my 7 seater people carrier can keep up with the Boxster in a straight line.
Of cause the Boxster runs rings around the M3 most notably on the brakes and IMO its a better car than the M3.... but think what it would be like if it had a proper engine like the M's.
andygtt said:
Ahh I see they are not straight 6's, now I understand... can't say I'd ever given much thought to what the configuration was.
So they are a bit like the engine in my Ducati 916 sound great and are differnt! but can't compete with a proper engine design.
Andy - I think the phrase goes "When in a hole! Stop digging" Can't compete with a proper engine design? So, Porsche (Boxter & 911), Subaru (All Models) and Ferrari (Berlinetta Boxer, Testarossa & 512TR) have all got it wrong over the years?? And the Beetle??So they are a bit like the engine in my Ducati 916 sound great and are differnt! but can't compete with a proper engine design.
Anyhow, you know I'm only winding you up! I think the M3 engine would make a great alternative to the SBC. My Z3M Sounds glorious at full chat. I wouldn't go that route in an Ultima but I can see the attraction.
Paul.B
yes boxster is flat 6, I like I-6 b/c of the improved sound characteristics. Also I-6 is much narrower so that could prove to be better for fitment an the ultima chassis. My goal is to truly have a one of a kind Ultima GTR and this seems like the best route for me IMO. I love the S50 OBD1 engines b/c of their modibility, sound and reliability and I think the boxster 6-speed would be another nice rare addition.
In addition the S50 actually is not vertical, its slanted towards the passenger side b/c the M3 was designed for optimum weight distribution right & left w/ the driver IN the car so that too is another reason for using the S50, it will ensure perfect weight distribution right to left w/ the driver in the car.
Regarding wheels. what are the exact wheel specs (offset & bolt pattern)? I would like to run something different than the "stock" ultima wheels, something narrower & lighter in the rear and a design more to my liking. thx again
In addition the S50 actually is not vertical, its slanted towards the passenger side b/c the M3 was designed for optimum weight distribution right & left w/ the driver IN the car so that too is another reason for using the S50, it will ensure perfect weight distribution right to left w/ the driver in the car.
Regarding wheels. what are the exact wheel specs (offset & bolt pattern)? I would like to run something different than the "stock" ultima wheels, something narrower & lighter in the rear and a design more to my liking. thx again
Edited by OmeyHomey on Friday 29th June 00:15
OmeyHomey said:
In addition the S50 actually is not vertical, its slanted towards the passenger side b/c the M3 was designed for optimum weight distribution right & left w/ the driver IN the car so that too is another reason for using the S50, it will ensure perfect weight distribution right to left w/ the driver in the car.
........ its gonna be leaning towards the drivers side in a RHD car.crafty said:
OmeyHomey said:
In addition the S50 actually is not vertical, its slanted towards the passenger side b/c the M3 was designed for optimum weight distribution right & left w/ the driver IN the car so that too is another reason for using the S50, it will ensure perfect weight distribution right to left w/ the driver in the car.
........ its gonna be leaning towards the drivers side in a RHD car.Gassing Station | Ultima | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff