Ultima Engines
Discussion
A variaty of engines have been used but you will be on your own in terms of support as the factory is pretty Chevy focussed. Main problems will be size and getting it to mate with the transaxle.
Have a search as there have been a number of threads on this subject.
My comment would be why go out on a limb when the Chevy works so well and is cheap horsepower.
Steve
Have a search as there have been a number of threads on this subject.
My comment would be why go out on a limb when the Chevy works so well and is cheap horsepower.
Steve
I'm looking at a Lexus 1uzfe V8, for several various reasons, which I won't detail here.
This is relativly simple - for a suitable workshop, and there are several places even in NZ that can make me one for a price comparible with the factory, though, as it's not probably been done before it will take a bit more effort, whereas the factory has all the bits and pieces ready to go...
This will be potentially more of a problem, the Chevy is a fairly compact design, and having pushrods, the heads and rocker covers are quite small when you compare them to a DOHC design, thought the 1uz has a compact DOHC arrangement, not to mention having to adjust the engine mounts, and possibly the chassis...
Sorry Steve, I'll have to disagree with this, cheap perhaps compared to other European V8s, but, not with an 1uz, I have already bought a complete working motor, for ~£450, granted it only is a standard 1uz, at ~260 bhp, with EFI, etc, etc, thus, if you compare it with what you get with the most basic Chevy and what you'd have to spend to get the internals up to the same spec as the 1uz... the word 'cheap' no longer applies IMHO.
Despite my own intentions, I have to agree with Steve here, if you are in the UK, it makes sense to use the Chevy, as you'll have factory support, maintain good resale value, and won't have to faff around with getting things fabricated - which could easily eat up any cost savings which you might imagine you can make and then some...
Unless, of course, you can get your hands on one of the engines you mentioned at a suitably low price, and have the the spare time, and energy to do these things differantly, just be aware of what it really entails, treat it just like modifying any other car to put a differant engine in...
Cheers,
Pete
steve_D said:
to mate with the transaxle
This is relativly simple - for a suitable workshop, and there are several places even in NZ that can make me one for a price comparible with the factory, though, as it's not probably been done before it will take a bit more effort, whereas the factory has all the bits and pieces ready to go...
steve_D said:
size
This will be potentially more of a problem, the Chevy is a fairly compact design, and having pushrods, the heads and rocker covers are quite small when you compare them to a DOHC design, thought the 1uz has a compact DOHC arrangement, not to mention having to adjust the engine mounts, and possibly the chassis...
steve_D said:
cheap horsepower
Sorry Steve, I'll have to disagree with this, cheap perhaps compared to other European V8s, but, not with an 1uz, I have already bought a complete working motor, for ~£450, granted it only is a standard 1uz, at ~260 bhp, with EFI, etc, etc, thus, if you compare it with what you get with the most basic Chevy and what you'd have to spend to get the internals up to the same spec as the 1uz... the word 'cheap' no longer applies IMHO.
steve_D said:
why go out on a limb when the Chevy works so well
Despite my own intentions, I have to agree with Steve here, if you are in the UK, it makes sense to use the Chevy, as you'll have factory support, maintain good resale value, and won't have to faff around with getting things fabricated - which could easily eat up any cost savings which you might imagine you can make and then some...
Unless, of course, you can get your hands on one of the engines you mentioned at a suitably low price, and have the the spare time, and energy to do these things differantly, just be aware of what it really entails, treat it just like modifying any other car to put a differant engine in...
Cheers,
Pete
Hi, just a couple of things to add - I'm currently building a V12 GTR here in the UK. Look at every detail before you start - it's a lot more work than you first think I spent 2 years planning esp:
Engine management - to get a newer engine to run and through UK SVA I need a complex aftermarket EFI management system and CATS built into the system. ( dont know if you will need this depending on your emmisions regs ).
Engine width and height not critical but LENGTH is. Allowing for the transaxle adapter plate you have just 26" for SBC and 1->1.5"" front clearance if using a flatter engine to keep transaxle axle position factory standard. At 32" I'm 4.5->5" over and having to move the trans back - this can be done by adjusting mountings and modifiying rear grill etc but the big problem is driveshaft angle. It's touch and go if they will work for me without snapping and I may be into a set of very over engineered custom made shafts or "mini propshafts" instead.
( Any useful advise on this aspect greatly appreciated ! )
I'm only doing it coz I love the V12 sound and can have a reliable high revving 600+hp in an alloy block. I wouldnt think of putting all this work in for a relatively lower power engine over the SBC unless I had a very good reason.
Cheers,
Ade
'All British GTR12'
Engine management - to get a newer engine to run and through UK SVA I need a complex aftermarket EFI management system and CATS built into the system. ( dont know if you will need this depending on your emmisions regs ).
Engine width and height not critical but LENGTH is. Allowing for the transaxle adapter plate you have just 26" for SBC and 1->1.5"" front clearance if using a flatter engine to keep transaxle axle position factory standard. At 32" I'm 4.5->5" over and having to move the trans back - this can be done by adjusting mountings and modifiying rear grill etc but the big problem is driveshaft angle. It's touch and go if they will work for me without snapping and I may be into a set of very over engineered custom made shafts or "mini propshafts" instead.
( Any useful advise on this aspect greatly appreciated ! )
I'm only doing it coz I love the V12 sound and can have a reliable high revving 600+hp in an alloy block. I wouldnt think of putting all this work in for a relatively lower power engine over the SBC unless I had a very good reason.
Cheers,
Ade
'All British GTR12'
CanAm-TT said:
Im looking at using a version of LS1 engine this will be all alloy and apart from a different adapter plate will in essence fit straight in.
May be that would be a better direction to take?
It could be if you decide to modify it later or increase it's capacity ala ls7.
Boosted
Boosted LS1 said:
It could be if you decide to modify it later
Boosted
Boosted raises a good point, I don't know how many aftermarket spares there are for the engines initially mentioned, but, there is a whole culture revolving around the SBC and it's progeny, and all manner of parts are readily availble, from custom aircraft grade alloy blocks up to shiny rocker covers, you name it I've seen it in someone's product list...
aidy_t said:
not to modify the chassis at all
That is my intent too, or at least make no structural alterations if at all possible,(perhaps with the exception of making the rear strut over the gearbox removable), thus if I need to sell the car, I can always pull out the 1uz and throw in an old SBC...
But I think if too much welding or chopping goes on, it could have all sorts of effects on the chassis, which is why I am happy to start off with the 1uz, as it was cheap - so I can play with it myself, and if it's really that much of a mission to fit in, well, I can always go back to the SBC family, they're common enough in NZ, usually in the form of a Holden (Vauxhall/Opel==>GM) Commodore...
aidy_t said:
Agreed! thats why the first decision made in my build diary is not to modify the chassis at all so I can fall back to an LS7 if fitting the V12 fails. ( which hopefully will be freely available by the time the car is ready next year ).
Ade
The actual block of the V12 is only 50mm longer than the SBC but as you say the end length full dressed increases it's length by a massive 190mm..... however it would be possible by running an electric water pump and by moving the front pully to run the air con on the water pump pulley to reduce that added length by 50+mm.
Still longer than the Chevy though.
Sorry that also assumes you are not running the huge dizzy's.
you need to be careful how far back the gearbox is as some long G50 require the Chevy to be moved forward to prevent them hitting the rear mesh.
I have a couple of BMW V12's both mated to Porsche transaxles in the garage if you need measurements or pics etc.
Andy, the BMW V12 would not be too much of a problem to fit from my research but thats not what I'm using.
I'm using the new Aston Martin / Cosworth 60deg 48v v12 which is 3" longer !
I'll upload the latest info to my online build diary tonight for anybody interested.
Ade
>> Edited by aidy_t on Wednesday 11th May 20:06
I'm using the new Aston Martin / Cosworth 60deg 48v v12 which is 3" longer !
I'll upload the latest info to my online build diary tonight for anybody interested.
Ade
>> Edited by aidy_t on Wednesday 11th May 20:06
aidy_t said:
Agreed! thats why the first decision made in my build diary is not to modify the chassis at all so I can fall back to an LS7 if fitting the V12 fails. ( which hopefully will be freely available by the time the car is ready next year ).
Ade
You don't need the factory ls7, it has limitations. I'm the Darton agent so can make something bespoke using the Darton wet liners, any rods, dry or wet sump and ls7 heads which are really impressive to see in the flesh! The ls7 uses a cast piston, I will use custom forged. Low c/r isn't a problem either.
Boosted.
aidy_t said:
Andy, the BMW V12 would not be too much of a problem to fit from my research but thats not what I'm using.
I'm using the new Aston Martin / Cosworth 60deg 48v v12 which is 3" longer !
I'll upload the latest info to my online build diary tonight for anybody interested.
Ade
>> Edited by aidy_t on Wednesday 11th May 20:06
Sorry I think I picked up the BMW link from the original poster and assumed you meant BMW V12...... I can imagine how long your V12 is.
I think getting the gearbox within the body dimensions at the rear is going to be a problem for you..... I suspect you will be forced to use a cable shift box.
peterpsg said:
steve_D said:
cheap horsepower
Sorry Steve, I'll have to disagree with this, cheap perhaps compared to other European V8s, but, not with an 1uz, I have already bought a complete working motor, for ~£450, granted it only is a standard 1uz, at ~260 bhp, with EFI, etc, etc, thus, if you compare it with what you get with the most basic Chevy and what you'd have to spend to get the internals up to the same spec as the 1uz... the word 'cheap' no longer applies IMHO.
That's probably for a used Lexus without a 'fresh' rebuild, for that cost, is it not? Because used Lexus engines are sort of cheap -- but the aftermarket parts for them, or even new parts for rebuilds meeting an OEM spec, aren't cheap (relative to Chevy V8 parts). The main reason why *used* 1UZ's are way cheaper than most Jap parts (and Chevies, whether new or used parts) is that junkyards have an excess of used Lexus engines capable of 200,000 miles or more quite easily -- due to the great reliability of the 1UZ-FE (with the cars getting crashed, or non-engine parts failing first).
I first want to say I'm not putting-down the 1UZ-FE, because its reliability and ability to make about 2500 HP when no expense is spared probably make it worth the cost for some people -- and I was even thinking of putting one in my MR2 since its electronics match Toyota's and a Chevy V8 wouldn't fit, until some clueless @#$##!! :-) rear-ended my MR2 and admitted to the cops he wasn't even looking forward (out his windscreen) for several seconds before he hit -- but:
* in a streetcar whose chassis and transaxles (even Hewlands) can't take anywhere near the 1500 lb-ft you'd have even with a pretty high-revving 1UZ making that 2000+ HP, and
* with Ultima's parts prepped for a Chevy instead of Toyota/Lexus engines, and
* because the LS-series SBC's and even properly-prepped older SBC's are plenty reliable at the sub-1000 HP levels typical for the street (and even reliable for racing under those high HP levels, as the C5-R's winning record shows),
given those 3 things, I don't see the Lexus' advantage or utility for this application...
On Ebay's 'buy it now' prices from well-rated (honest)users, I just found running LT1's with EFI for $650 (325 GBP), and they put out a few dozen more ponies than the 1UZ-FE; that's about twice the HP-per-GBP you got with your 1UZ, so I'd go even further than Steve by calling that 2:1 cost ratio 'VERY cheap HP' compared to the 1UZ. Not sure why you took issue with Steve calling it cheaper... But even then -- even if a sub-300 HP Chevy was a bit more expensive than a sub-300 HP Lexus in the UK market -- you're probably losing whatever you've saved when trying to mate the 1UZ to the Ultima, as you said.
But at least some 1UZ's come with forged cranks, etc. (not sure about yours if it's not an -FE), which is great for later mods, compared to such cheap Chevies which wouldn't have a forged crank... With the 11.5:1 CR (bad for turbos or other superchargers, which are one way to get lots of HP out of that low-displacement engine), narrow cam (the other way to make HP, without turbos), and low redline of the Lexus though, you sure aren't likely to make enough HP to *need* the forged crank -- or make the HP most Ultima owners are -- without replacing the pistons, getting high-RPM valvetrain, and programmable ECU... all of which should total way, way more than a Chevy of the equivalent HP level, even if you added the cost of a forged crank and better rods to the Chevy. ;-)
>> Edited by jeff-texas on Saturday 14th May 06:47
Ok Jeff,
I'll eat a little humble pie - up to a point - the price I paid was for a complete (but, used, as you guessed) engine, including the transmission (which U don't need except as a template for the adapter plate.) and all the electronics.
This was the cost to me back in NZ with no extra freight costs from the US, where I don't have the luxury of a 'swapmeet' culture to pick up cheap parts from...
I have seen very few 'decent' Chevy V8's in NZ that are anywhere the price of the 1uzfe that I bought, most that are, happen to be 2-3 times the age as well...
And mostly these have been are 262 - 308 CID types.
Which, since the 4.0 Litre V8 equals ~ 240 CID, don't have that much more of a capacity advantage over the
Lexus V8, and really the extra capacity is only useful in that you can develop the same power for a lower BMEP figure, IIRC, thus all things being equal, you have a higher maximum power potential simply due to that extra cylinder space... Toyota also built a rare 5 litre V12, and I'm sure it won't be long before their V8 family breaks that barrier as well... then, we'll really be able to compare apples... give me a Ford 5.0 Cammer any day, just without the 15k usd price tag...
Like you said, the 1uzfe has a very solid design, this in part is probably due to it being Toyota's first attempt at a V8, hence the 'basic' spec of the engine is gererally superior to a 'basic' Chevy, probably since TPTB in Detroit have had 50 years to work on cost minimisation in the SBC family.
Plus, as MrJ has kindly noted, the 1uzfe can quite easily be brought up to a fairly reasonable 400bhp/8krpm quite cheaply, though after this you'll start needing the extras you mentioned... and the price will hike up quite quickly after that, due to the custom fabrication costs, and likely at a steeper rate than the SBC...
At the end of the day, I intend to use the 1uzfe, as I view it quite suitable for the purpose of what is a light sports car... and because I want to have at least a part of the project that requires some real 'original engineering' (mine!!!), rather than just being already availible in 'kitset' form (the rest of the kitset car is enought to satisfy me for pre built stuff!!) I guess the challenge of doing something (almost) completely new appeals to me, and the SBC has been done so many ways already...
As I said, I can always fall back on the venerable SBC, but I intend to have a good crack at the 1uzfe first, and if I do use the SBC, then it'll be my round at the local pub - of which, being in Cambridge, there are ~120 of them! In quite a small town, hence making for a very good pub crawl...
Pete
I'll eat a little humble pie - up to a point - the price I paid was for a complete (but, used, as you guessed) engine, including the transmission (which U don't need except as a template for the adapter plate.) and all the electronics.
This was the cost to me back in NZ with no extra freight costs from the US, where I don't have the luxury of a 'swapmeet' culture to pick up cheap parts from...
I have seen very few 'decent' Chevy V8's in NZ that are anywhere the price of the 1uzfe that I bought, most that are, happen to be 2-3 times the age as well...
And mostly these have been are 262 - 308 CID types.
Which, since the 4.0 Litre V8 equals ~ 240 CID, don't have that much more of a capacity advantage over the
Lexus V8, and really the extra capacity is only useful in that you can develop the same power for a lower BMEP figure, IIRC, thus all things being equal, you have a higher maximum power potential simply due to that extra cylinder space... Toyota also built a rare 5 litre V12, and I'm sure it won't be long before their V8 family breaks that barrier as well... then, we'll really be able to compare apples... give me a Ford 5.0 Cammer any day, just without the 15k usd price tag...
Like you said, the 1uzfe has a very solid design, this in part is probably due to it being Toyota's first attempt at a V8, hence the 'basic' spec of the engine is gererally superior to a 'basic' Chevy, probably since TPTB in Detroit have had 50 years to work on cost minimisation in the SBC family.
Plus, as MrJ has kindly noted, the 1uzfe can quite easily be brought up to a fairly reasonable 400bhp/8krpm quite cheaply, though after this you'll start needing the extras you mentioned... and the price will hike up quite quickly after that, due to the custom fabrication costs, and likely at a steeper rate than the SBC...
At the end of the day, I intend to use the 1uzfe, as I view it quite suitable for the purpose of what is a light sports car... and because I want to have at least a part of the project that requires some real 'original engineering' (mine!!!), rather than just being already availible in 'kitset' form (the rest of the kitset car is enought to satisfy me for pre built stuff!!) I guess the challenge of doing something (almost) completely new appeals to me, and the SBC has been done so many ways already...
As I said, I can always fall back on the venerable SBC, but I intend to have a good crack at the 1uzfe first, and if I do use the SBC, then it'll be my round at the local pub - of which, being in Cambridge, there are ~120 of them! In quite a small town, hence making for a very good pub crawl...
Pete
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