What's the Fastest Cheap 1600cc Prod Saloon for Sprinting?
Discussion
Hi all. I'm looking for some suggestions for a quick standard production saloon car to use in class 1 for sprinting, which this year has changed to a maximum capacity of 1600cc (it was previously 1400cc). I am also on a budget, as the car will probably only be used a handful of times each year, so it ideally needs to be less than £1000. I'm thinking along the lines of a Honda with a VTEC engine, but any suggestions would be gratefully received.
BTW, I have sprinted before in a Golf GTi, so am aware of the technicalities. Well, most of them!
BTW, I have sprinted before in a Golf GTi, so am aware of the technicalities. Well, most of them!
Treloen said:
Hi all. I'm looking for some suggestions for a quick standard production saloon car to use in class 1 for sprinting, which this year has changed to a maximum capacity of 1600cc (it was previously 1400cc). I am also on a budget, as the car will probably only be used a handful of times each year, so it ideally needs to be less than £1000. I'm thinking along the lines of a Honda with a VTEC engine, but any suggestions would be gratefully received.
BTW, I have sprinted before in a Golf GTi, so am aware of the technicalities. Well, most of them!
The Honda B16B was the most powerful 1.6 I think with around 185bhp, but these are expensive, come out of the Jap Spec Civic Type R that we never got.BTW, I have sprinted before in a Golf GTi, so am aware of the technicalities. Well, most of them!
£1000 will get ropey Civic/CRX with the B16A, produces around 150-160bhp standard, cant think of any other 1.6's that get that close. The D16 engine isn't to bad either, produces 130bhp. Mechanically these cars are very good, but you will be fighting rust for that kind of money.
Only thing is, I dare say there's a few french hot hatch's that are a lump lighter.
for only a grand, you are going to have to scour every classifieds page you can find but you should turn up something.
i would be looking for one of the following;
1.6 Honda CRX - a great handling fwd car, good tuning potential but fast enough as standard
1.6 205 GTI - light, fast, good handling, some good value go-faster bits
1.3 suzuki swift - rare as hens teeth but utterly bonkers, high revving and light as a feather, could get weight down to 750kg quite easily.
1.3 106 rallye - easy to find 120 bhp from one of these, light, great handling
1.6 Saxo VTR/VTS/106 GTI - as per the 205
Diahatsu Charade - does the class have a forced induction weighting factor, these things were nothing and with a big turbo couuld be well up there. i think they were 998cc so with a1.4 multiplier still fits in the class
could you find an early base model mk1 fiesta and fit a 1600xflow? might be the same block as the original so should be allowed, would be light and fast.
Rover 216 GTI isnt a bad idea but doesnt handle as well as any of the above and the engine isnt a patch on the others as standard.
i would be looking for one of the following;
1.6 Honda CRX - a great handling fwd car, good tuning potential but fast enough as standard
1.6 205 GTI - light, fast, good handling, some good value go-faster bits
1.3 suzuki swift - rare as hens teeth but utterly bonkers, high revving and light as a feather, could get weight down to 750kg quite easily.
1.3 106 rallye - easy to find 120 bhp from one of these, light, great handling
1.6 Saxo VTR/VTS/106 GTI - as per the 205
Diahatsu Charade - does the class have a forced induction weighting factor, these things were nothing and with a big turbo couuld be well up there. i think they were 998cc so with a1.4 multiplier still fits in the class
could you find an early base model mk1 fiesta and fit a 1600xflow? might be the same block as the original so should be allowed, would be light and fast.
Rover 216 GTI isnt a bad idea but doesnt handle as well as any of the above and the engine isnt a patch on the others as standard.
Firstly what does the Prod Saloon regs allow?
Some classes put 1600cc 16v engines up a class to give the 8v engines a chance.
If so, and it requires an original engine, with internal mods, and free induction - then a Nova GTE/GSi.
They handle far better than their counterparts, they can be lightened quite easily, parts are cheap and fairly plentiful. If brakes have to be production car parts - again, the Nova wins here because you can bolt on the Cavalier GSi brakes for a big upgrade, and they're cheap.
Some classes put 1600cc 16v engines up a class to give the 8v engines a chance.
If so, and it requires an original engine, with internal mods, and free induction - then a Nova GTE/GSi.
They handle far better than their counterparts, they can be lightened quite easily, parts are cheap and fairly plentiful. If brakes have to be production car parts - again, the Nova wins here because you can bolt on the Cavalier GSi brakes for a big upgrade, and they're cheap.
Thanks for all of the suggestions so far. To clarify the regs:
Standard Cars are those as defined by Road Going Series Production in the MSA “Blue Book”, but restricted to 2wd cars using List 1a tyres. Cars are to be be to manufacturers original specification, with modifications limited to safety items along with replacement wheels and aftermarket exhausts (not
manifolds) No other modifications (body, brakes, suspension, transmission or engine etc) will be permitted.
Cars using forced induction will be classified as having an engine capacity increase of 40%,: those using diesel fuel will have a reduction of 30% (i.e. a 2000cc turbo diesel will be considered to be the equivalent of a normally aspirated 1960cc petrol engine). Rotary engines will be classified as having an engine capacity increase of 50%. Forced induction rotary engines will be deemed to have an engine capacity increase of 110%.
And you can have as many valves per cylinder as you like.
Standard Cars are those as defined by Road Going Series Production in the MSA “Blue Book”, but restricted to 2wd cars using List 1a tyres. Cars are to be be to manufacturers original specification, with modifications limited to safety items along with replacement wheels and aftermarket exhausts (not
manifolds) No other modifications (body, brakes, suspension, transmission or engine etc) will be permitted.
Cars using forced induction will be classified as having an engine capacity increase of 40%,: those using diesel fuel will have a reduction of 30% (i.e. a 2000cc turbo diesel will be considered to be the equivalent of a normally aspirated 1960cc petrol engine). Rotary engines will be classified as having an engine capacity increase of 50%. Forced induction rotary engines will be deemed to have an engine capacity increase of 110%.
And you can have as many valves per cylinder as you like.
Edited by Treloen on Monday 14th March 23:02
Now then.
Top Marks to the OP for highlighting this...
I believe this is a new class structure from (amongst others?) the Assoc. of Central Southern Motorclubs ( http://www.acsmc.com/ ) for more standard cars which should be a way of encouraging those of us who don't have the space (or budget) to run a second competition car as well as a half-decent daily driver.
I'm going to keep an eye on the 2011 championship to see if it is worth getting involved for 2012.
As for a good car, my initial thoughts would be the VTEC Hondas for outright power, or the classic PH choice of a mk1 MX5 (assuming the "1.6" version is actually <1600cc).
Top Marks to the OP for highlighting this...
I believe this is a new class structure from (amongst others?) the Assoc. of Central Southern Motorclubs ( http://www.acsmc.com/ ) for more standard cars which should be a way of encouraging those of us who don't have the space (or budget) to run a second competition car as well as a half-decent daily driver.
I'm going to keep an eye on the 2011 championship to see if it is worth getting involved for 2012.
As for a good car, my initial thoughts would be the VTEC Hondas for outright power, or the classic PH choice of a mk1 MX5 (assuming the "1.6" version is actually <1600cc).
Shoestringracer said:
Are you sure its 1600 in the MSA regs? Or is this just one particular club and their own rules. I haven't got my blue book handy at work but I don't remember reading anything about an increase from 1400 to 1600.
I don't know if it's specific to certain championships, but this is what I'm working from:CATEGORY A. Road-Going Series Production Cars & Road Going Specialist Production Cars (S.10.10.2)
- Excluding cars in Appendix 1
1. ‘Standard Cars’ Up to 1600cc. – 2wd only, list 1A tyres
2. ‘Standard Cars’ Over 1600cc to 2000cc. – 2wd, list 1A tyres (See Appendix 2 for specification of ‘Standard’)
3. Up to 1400cc - 2wd only, list 1A or 1B tyres
4. Over 1400cc to 2000cc – 2wd only, list 1A or 1B tyres
5. Over 2000cc - 2wd only, list 1A or 1B tyres
6. 4wd – all engine capacities, list 1A or 1B tyres
Road Going Kit Type and Replica Cars (Examples are included in Appendix 1)
7. Up to 1700cc., list 1A or 1B tyres
8. Over 1700cc list 1A or 1B tyres
CATEGORY B. Modified Series Production Cars (S.10.10.3) and Modified Specialist
Production Cars (S.10.10.4)
9. Up to 1400cc
10. Over 1400cc to 2000cc
11. Over 2000cc
CATEGORY C. Sports Libre Cars (S.10.10.6)
13. Up to 1800cc
14. Over 1800cc
CATEGORY D. Racing Cars (S.10.10.7) and Hillclimb Super Sports Cars (S.10.10.5)
14. Racing Cars up to 1100cc.
15. Racing Cars over 1100cc.
16. ‘Formula Ford’ Racing Cars. (For specification, see Appendix 3)
I was going to look at a 'paxo' this evening, but some bugger has beaten me to it!
i just cant see those regs working in the real world. suddenly everyone with a mildly modified but road going car (eg new induction system, upgraded suspension, strut braces etc) is lumped with the rest of the modified stuff so you are competing against fully stripped and lightened race prep'd cars running slicks. anyone with any sort of modified road going car will walk away and find something new.
keepng things standard might attract newbies and keep costs down but driving a bog standard motor isnt exactly going to keep you entertained for long and people will throw money at changing tyres more often. if you are confident that the "standard" thing will be enforced correctly and enforced well, a 106 gti or a saxo is your best bet. otherwise, do cars in class 3 have to be standard?, the wording isnt clear. personally i would go hunting for a mk1 106 rallye (1.3) and attack that class or look for a 172 clio (2.0) and have fun in class 4 though i appreciate 172 clios are still not <£2K. at least it allows you some freedom with regards to go-faster mods.
keepng things standard might attract newbies and keep costs down but driving a bog standard motor isnt exactly going to keep you entertained for long and people will throw money at changing tyres more often. if you are confident that the "standard" thing will be enforced correctly and enforced well, a 106 gti or a saxo is your best bet. otherwise, do cars in class 3 have to be standard?, the wording isnt clear. personally i would go hunting for a mk1 106 rallye (1.3) and attack that class or look for a 172 clio (2.0) and have fun in class 4 though i appreciate 172 clios are still not <£2K. at least it allows you some freedom with regards to go-faster mods.
Yes, I see. I think this is a club or group of clubs creating a genuinely standard, standard class. Quite a few have done it for this year becuase the lowest level of modifactions allowed by the standard MSA rules allows quite a lot of modification. Personally I think it was a good idea and am thinking of entereing in my everyday car instead of my dedicated competitition car for next year simly becuase it is easier to drive to and from the events.
i do think it will encourage newbies but i also think relying on people to keep cars standard and be honest is naive to say the least. i have heard stories of people going to extraordinary lengths to conceal irregularities just to win a regional sprint class.
i dont understand why the capacity splits are different between classes 1 and 2, and then 3 to 5. This means that if you buy a 1600cc car to compete in class 1, if you decide to modify the car you are at a disadvantage in class 4. i appreciate 1600cc is a good split but it seems odd.
i dont understand why the capacity splits are different between classes 1 and 2, and then 3 to 5. This means that if you buy a 1600cc car to compete in class 1, if you decide to modify the car you are at a disadvantage in class 4. i appreciate 1600cc is a good split but it seems odd.
Truckosaurus said:
also... 
The area within the 'standard' classes for potential turmoil is hard to detect boost increases if people start running turbo cars.
I definitely think it's a good move.
whlist its against the spirit of the regs, its not illegal. The area within the 'standard' classes for potential turmoil is hard to detect boost increases if people start running turbo cars. I definitely think it's a good move.
anyone of a trophy hunting mentality will be after a daihatsu charade gtti and a massive aftermarket turbo hoping to clean up in class 1.... cant see anything else getting close as i know those things are comfortably taken up to 150bhp. on standard brakes, springs and shocks however, thats going to be entertaining...
i would be looking for a <1400cc car which works better if you want to upgrade to class 3 in the future.... so a 1300cc 106 rallye it is....
quite interested in this to be honest, and the events arent that far away...... hmmm....
pablo said:
i dont understand why the capacity splits are different between classes 1 and 2, and then 3 to 5. ... i appreciate 1600cc is a good split but it seems odd.
They must think there are a large number of people with 1400-1600cc cars (Swifts, Saxos, 106GTi etc.) awaiting to use them (I'm not convinced). I can see a market for people with 2-litre tdi company cars wanting a standard class to sneakily run them in though.Perhaps the long term view is to extend the traditional upto-1400cc road modified classes upto 1600cc opening that classes upto more than just Minis.
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