Snetterton 300 video simulation
Discussion
Sorry if its already been posted, but I did look.
They've obviously cheated with the weather.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7DgSw_EARM&fea...
They've obviously cheated with the weather.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7DgSw_EARM&fea...
I think you'll find most of those lines are what we end up doing. there are a lot of long bends that will reward carrying speed into the apex. If you go wide to get a faster exit then you'll be wasting a lot of time on corner entry - more than you'll gain on the exit of the corner.
I could write a big essay but Nigel Greensall explains it all very well in this article:
http://www.videovbox.co.uk/index.php/driver-traini...
I could write a big essay but Nigel Greensall explains it all very well in this article:
http://www.videovbox.co.uk/index.php/driver-traini...
interesting article. I guess you can only really gain time by turning in early if there is only a short run up to the next corner. you would need to still turn in late to a corner followed by a long straight so exit speed is still important.
I suppose none of us REALLY know the lines on the new track because no one has actually driven it yet.
I suppose none of us REALLY know the lines on the new track because no one has actually driven it yet.
wildman0609 said:
interesting article. I guess you can only really gain time by turning in early if there is only a short run up to the next corner. you would need to still turn in late to a corner followed by a long straight so exit speed is still important.
I suppose none of us REALLY know the lines on the new track because no one has actually driven it yet.
http://www.mitchellsoftware.com/DriveSim3.htmI suppose none of us REALLY know the lines on the new track because no one has actually driven it yet.
thunderbelmont said:
Not 100% sure about that Ben. Though in some ways they'll be "common lines for some club racers"!!!
Ye cannae change the laws of physics (tyre adhesion, momentum, etc..)
But I'm always willing to learn!
Am booked there for the 20th feb so will try a few different lines and post up.Ye cannae change the laws of physics (tyre adhesion, momentum, etc..)
But I'm always willing to learn!
My gut feeling is that the longer bends will end up a line like the top of an egg as per luffield at silverstone. In early, allow to run wide and then tighten line as car slows down. Nail throttle at earliest opportunity.
Ok just to show what I mean in the previous post. Lets take some data from my video vbox in an MX5 turbo at silverstone. That car was on toyo T1-R road tyres and was over 200 bhp.
Below we have a picture of the lines taken from the GPS. In both pictures I am the red trace.
As you can see from the lines and the Long Acc my customer takes a more conventional line into luffield.
He then balances the throttle. You can see at this point his cornering g (lat acc) is now less than mine pretty much for the whole corner. The balanced throttle has removed some grip from the front tyres - limiting his steering ability. He now has to wait until he can straighten the wheel before applying more power.
The data shows a balanced throttle for 104 meters.
My line gives a different approach to the corner. This was the line that I was taught by Tim Mullen when I first raced at Silverstone.
The idea here is that you want to try and straighten up the exit of the corner. The conventional hairpin line would mean that you'd need to end up in Towcester, turn back on yourself and then clip a late apex and get a good straight exit.
Ideally in a corner you want to be going at the same speed for as little time as possible. You either want to be slowing down or speeding up. The idea with this line is to try and get to the point at which you can get on the throttle firmly with as little balance time as possible.
Physics tells us that the slower your speed, the tighter the radius of corner that you can turn. I turn in early and allow the car to run a few feet from the inside of the corner. as it is slowing down I turn tighter. You can see this in the consistency of my G force line.
I now have the bonus of the car being pointed further around the corner. Look at how much more of the wall can be seen on my video even though I'm further away from the kerb.
So I'm slower in the middle of the bend but this gives a better exit. My balanced throttle section is 21 meters. By the time he eases for woodcote (this area was still slightly damp in our runs - better safe than sorry) there was an 8mph difference between us.
I am not saying at this time that anybody is correct or incorrect. There will always be different choices and different needs for different cars / drivers.
I am really looking forward to driving the new 300 circuit and will bookmark this thread to add some more useful data from the video Vbox system.
I should point out that to do the line above at Silverstone you must take caution and I give the same warning to my customers. If you develop this technique and are tucked up behind someone who doesn't do this - be careful - you gain a lot of ground on corner entry and you don't want to crash into the car in front!
I should also point out that this is pretty hard to do. It requires what feels like a massive amount of speed on entry and a good feel for grip and balance. It's extremely testing on vision. You can see from the inset camera that I am looking out of the side window at my exit point (at the point in the picture I'm half way around the corner). This means car placement has to be done in the extremes of your peripheral vision.
I have some customers who just plain cannot do this. For them I teach a compromise line that isn't quite as quick but gives them the best option within their abilities. I keep trying new ideas on them though - I'm not saying I give up on them, just that I need to think of new ways of increasing their ability / confidence which is the fun and challenging part of training people.
Apologies if there's any spelling / grammar issues - blurry eyed - it's 1.30 am!
Hope it all makes sense, any questions please ask
Below we have a picture of the lines taken from the GPS. In both pictures I am the red trace.
As you can see from the lines and the Long Acc my customer takes a more conventional line into luffield.
He then balances the throttle. You can see at this point his cornering g (lat acc) is now less than mine pretty much for the whole corner. The balanced throttle has removed some grip from the front tyres - limiting his steering ability. He now has to wait until he can straighten the wheel before applying more power.
The data shows a balanced throttle for 104 meters.
My line gives a different approach to the corner. This was the line that I was taught by Tim Mullen when I first raced at Silverstone.
The idea here is that you want to try and straighten up the exit of the corner. The conventional hairpin line would mean that you'd need to end up in Towcester, turn back on yourself and then clip a late apex and get a good straight exit.
Ideally in a corner you want to be going at the same speed for as little time as possible. You either want to be slowing down or speeding up. The idea with this line is to try and get to the point at which you can get on the throttle firmly with as little balance time as possible.
Physics tells us that the slower your speed, the tighter the radius of corner that you can turn. I turn in early and allow the car to run a few feet from the inside of the corner. as it is slowing down I turn tighter. You can see this in the consistency of my G force line.
I now have the bonus of the car being pointed further around the corner. Look at how much more of the wall can be seen on my video even though I'm further away from the kerb.
So I'm slower in the middle of the bend but this gives a better exit. My balanced throttle section is 21 meters. By the time he eases for woodcote (this area was still slightly damp in our runs - better safe than sorry) there was an 8mph difference between us.
I am not saying at this time that anybody is correct or incorrect. There will always be different choices and different needs for different cars / drivers.
I am really looking forward to driving the new 300 circuit and will bookmark this thread to add some more useful data from the video Vbox system.
I should point out that to do the line above at Silverstone you must take caution and I give the same warning to my customers. If you develop this technique and are tucked up behind someone who doesn't do this - be careful - you gain a lot of ground on corner entry and you don't want to crash into the car in front!
I should also point out that this is pretty hard to do. It requires what feels like a massive amount of speed on entry and a good feel for grip and balance. It's extremely testing on vision. You can see from the inset camera that I am looking out of the side window at my exit point (at the point in the picture I'm half way around the corner). This means car placement has to be done in the extremes of your peripheral vision.
I have some customers who just plain cannot do this. For them I teach a compromise line that isn't quite as quick but gives them the best option within their abilities. I keep trying new ideas on them though - I'm not saying I give up on them, just that I need to think of new ways of increasing their ability / confidence which is the fun and challenging part of training people.
Apologies if there's any spelling / grammar issues - blurry eyed - it's 1.30 am!
Hope it all makes sense, any questions please ask
Ben - thanks for that - very interesting.
Not all relevant to my RWD caterham, but much of it is. I've always found that getting wide on entry doesn't reward you at all in Luffield, and have a similar drift wide and then nail it approach. But when you're running close with others, as I invariably am in a Caterham, then the line is often determined by where others are ...
Jez
Not all relevant to my RWD caterham, but much of it is. I've always found that getting wide on entry doesn't reward you at all in Luffield, and have a similar drift wide and then nail it approach. But when you're running close with others, as I invariably am in a Caterham, then the line is often determined by where others are ...
Jez
Agree with you on that line Ben. That's the line I've learned through there, from the likes of Senior Hedgetts, and many others. Regardless of 200hp MX5, or in my case 700hp Thundersaloon, that's the fastest way through the corner to gain the speed into Woodcote. I've seen a lot of people I see apexing earlier, and thus running out wider onto the grasscrete and having to get out of the gas much soon (thus losing momentum into Woodcote), and thus Copse.
Now Becketts is another one.....
Look forward to your findings at Snet. It's going to be late April before I get a chance to do anything there if all goes to plan.
Now Becketts is another one.....
Look forward to your findings at Snet. It's going to be late April before I get a chance to do anything there if all goes to plan.
BenElliottRacing said:
Jez,
An mx5 is the same layout as a caterham and rwd. I'd drive the caterham the same way and there's nothing there specific to front or rwd.
Ben
Yes - ahem - I was up early with the little 'un and not thinking straight. Saw the bit about losing front end grip with the balanced throttle and presumed it was FWD - didn't pay enough attention to the fact that you mentioned it was an MX5.An mx5 is the same layout as a caterham and rwd. I'd drive the caterham the same way and there's nothing there specific to front or rwd.
Ben
Jez
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