Discussion
I'm one of those people for whom knowledge is power. Thorough research ahead of doing anything is, therefore, par for the course.
So, I've identified the TinTops series within CSCC as quite an appealing motorsport.
They publish their results and in this document (page 178 thereof) are the TinTops results from the recent race at Brands Hatch (Indy).
What I wanted to know though, was how fast these cars are actually going.
So, to compare, I found this list of other cars' lap times on the same circuit - http://www.fastestlaps.com/track71.html
Now, according to this, at least 20 of the TT 'hot hatches' are at least as fast round the track as ten of the tastiest cars in existence.
Now either the 'sexy cars' weren't being pushed or I'm failing to grasp the 'preparation opportunities' of the TinTops series.
Is anyone here involved with TT or a keen onlooker? What steps are these guys taking to get such good lap-times from their cars?
So, I've identified the TinTops series within CSCC as quite an appealing motorsport.
They publish their results and in this document (page 178 thereof) are the TinTops results from the recent race at Brands Hatch (Indy).
What I wanted to know though, was how fast these cars are actually going.
So, to compare, I found this list of other cars' lap times on the same circuit - http://www.fastestlaps.com/track71.html
Now, according to this, at least 20 of the TT 'hot hatches' are at least as fast round the track as ten of the tastiest cars in existence.
Now either the 'sexy cars' weren't being pushed or I'm failing to grasp the 'preparation opportunities' of the TinTops series.
Is anyone here involved with TT or a keen onlooker? What steps are these guys taking to get such good lap-times from their cars?
That site also said said:
Cadwell Park (Full Circuit), Great Britain (3496 m) Add laptime for Cadwell Park (Full Circuit)
Lap times (15)
Pos Make / Model Time Speed (km/h) Year Power (hp) / Weight (kg) Driven by
1. Caterham R400 Superlight 1:39.8 126 '06 213 / 525 EVO Mag
I have put an R300 superlight (normal road trim, inc screen and doors, CR500 tyres) round Cadwell in 1.40.6. I am not a racing driver, it isn't my car, and somone decent would beat that considerably. To be within 1 second of the much more powerful R400 to me means that the times on that site are not exactly race standard.Lap times (15)
Pos Make / Model Time Speed (km/h) Year Power (hp) / Weight (kg) Driven by
1. Caterham R400 Superlight 1:39.8 126 '06 213 / 525 EVO Mag
So, I think it's not unlikely that a good driver in a well set, race spec tintop can be quick around a flowing, committed track like brands when compared to a journalist in a roadgoing lambo. If this is the case, and you could race a similar car to the same times, you now have AWESOME bragging rights in the pub! Get it bought =)
V8mate said:
What steps are these guys taking to get such good lap-times from their cars?
You're comparing road cars on presumably road tyres, std suspension, brakes and trim (WEIGHT) with race cars. It's never going to look too clever for such a road car - esp somewhere like BH Indy. (although some of those times for road cars are pretty good considering.)Edited by juliann on Friday 25th June 17:15
I race in Tintops, our Clio is around 200bhp. Stock internals but has AT Power throttle bodies. the rule 'standard inducion type' means you cant fit carbs if the car has injection and vise versa.
The rules are quite open in the series but there is always someone 'at your level' to have a litle race with.
The rules are quite open in the series but there is always someone 'at your level' to have a litle race with.
V8mate said:
Burp said:
I race in Tintops, our Clio is around 200bhp. Stock internals but has AT Power throttle bodies. the rule 'standard inducion type' means you cant fit carbs if the car has injection and vise versa.
Ah ok. So remapping of the ECU is allowed?Atomic Gibbon said:
That site also said said:
Cadwell Park (Full Circuit), Great Britain (3496 m) Add laptime for Cadwell Park (Full Circuit)
Lap times (15)
Pos Make / Model Time Speed (km/h) Year Power (hp) / Weight (kg) Driven by
1. Caterham R400 Superlight 1:39.8 126 '06 213 / 525 EVO Mag
I have put an R300 superlight (normal road trim, inc screen and doors, CR500 tyres) round Cadwell in 1.40.6. I am not a racing driver, it isn't my car, and somone decent would beat that considerably. To be within 1 second of the much more powerful R400 to me means that the times on that site are not exactly race standard.Lap times (15)
Pos Make / Model Time Speed (km/h) Year Power (hp) / Weight (kg) Driven by
1. Caterham R400 Superlight 1:39.8 126 '06 213 / 525 EVO Mag
So, I think it's not unlikely that a good driver in a well set, race spec tintop can be quick around a flowing, committed track like brands when compared to a journalist in a roadgoing lambo. If this is the case, and you could race a similar car to the same times, you now have AWESOME bragging rights in the pub! Get it bought =)
I'd understand "maintaining original induction" to mean that you couldn't add a turbo/supercharger to an NA engine.
if you're looking for a race where the winners are determined by skill (or luck!!) rather than the ability to buy expensive mods, have a look at Class E in the Alfashop Alfa Romeo series www.alfaracer.com. There are a few class E cars for sale on the site as well (at reasonable prices)
I know Brands Indy very well, and those times seem to check out to me, both for the road cars and the Tin Tops. Road cars are always a compromise for use in all conditions, whereas racing cars are set up not just for the track, but for that particular moment (wet, dry, gearing to suit that circuit etc). If you lower an ordinary road car considerably, lighten it, fit track tyres and set it up properly you can be on the tail of some fairly serious road going supercars quite easily.
This is why a £20k Caterham can outpace a £100k Porsche - it's the same theory at work. Forget the Top Gear challenge where they tried to make an Espace lap as quickly as a Mitsubishi Evo - they did all the wrong things and the TG test track is a million miles from your average A road or race track. I think TG would have succeeded around Brands if they did the right things to the Espace.
To answer the above queries, the road car times are from Autocar. I've got that magazine, and as usual they had a professional racing driver setting the times. Ergo, we can compare the drivers in the race car times with the road car times.
The Esprit time is from when Jason Plato and Richard Meaden (Evo journalist and deputy editor, who is an ex Caterham racer I believe) lapped in a BTCC car and the Esprit. I have that magazine too.
As an illustration of my point, a race tuned MG Metro Turbo could get quite close to Plato's Esprit time. Put slicks on and it may even go quicker. I used to race in that championship, and a friend of mine wrote in to point this out and say how good value motorsport was. Evo agreed, and ran an ex race cars buying guide in that issue.
This is why a £20k Caterham can outpace a £100k Porsche - it's the same theory at work. Forget the Top Gear challenge where they tried to make an Espace lap as quickly as a Mitsubishi Evo - they did all the wrong things and the TG test track is a million miles from your average A road or race track. I think TG would have succeeded around Brands if they did the right things to the Espace.
To answer the above queries, the road car times are from Autocar. I've got that magazine, and as usual they had a professional racing driver setting the times. Ergo, we can compare the drivers in the race car times with the road car times.
The Esprit time is from when Jason Plato and Richard Meaden (Evo journalist and deputy editor, who is an ex Caterham racer I believe) lapped in a BTCC car and the Esprit. I have that magazine too.
As an illustration of my point, a race tuned MG Metro Turbo could get quite close to Plato's Esprit time. Put slicks on and it may even go quicker. I used to race in that championship, and a friend of mine wrote in to point this out and say how good value motorsport was. Evo agreed, and ran an ex race cars buying guide in that issue.
I also race in CSCC Tin Tops (but I admit I am not that quick!). I have raced a Fiat Uno, an Alfa 33, a Pug 205 & now a Toyota Carina in the series. As always, there's some quick guys at the front who have won in a lot of other series before coming to Tin Tops (John Hammersley, Simon Taylor & Rob Addison spring to mind). However, most of us are just club level drivers, living a dream at a relatvely affordable budget level.
The regs are very free in theory. Original engine type means just what it says - for eg, you can't put a 2 litre Duratec in a Mk2 Ford Escort. If a car was originally built with Carbs then it has to run with Carbs, if it had Injection, however, i think you can run with Carbs or Throttle Bodies.
The key reg which does tend to limit development/ cost in a lot of areas is that shells/ body panels have to be original size and shape. You can use panels of different materials but it HAS to be to the original silhouete in EVERY PLANE. (oh & no space frame cars unless they were originally the method of construction for the road car, so no Eurocar type cars). What this means in practice is that its difficult to put big wheels on to a car & therefore difficult to fit big brakes etc etc. Engine development is relatively free but most peoples engines are relatively straightforward mods. The quickest cars in Tin Tops are the Honda Type Rs with 250(ish) Bhp at a guess. My Carina has 200 & I'm guessing that the 1800 MGZRs & the 1800 Honda Civic is similar. However, they are well dveloped cars and quite light and very stiff by comparion with their road car cousins. My car, and the 1800 Honda Civic are ex works cars for eg.
Lap times (and costs) are relatively limited by the insistance on List 1B tyres but these are still quite "sticky" compared to normal road car tyres.
Its a good series and the 40 minute races are great value for money. You can also share with a driver as there is a compulsory pit stop so you can share costs. The series is popular & there is alway someone to dice with. Driving standards are good and it is very novice friendly.
As a series, some of the cars in it will be pretty well developed but you can also race very happily and do very well in less sophisticated or expensive cars. My Alfa 33 was fantastic fun but I bought it for £600; the Uno cost me £2000 and was awesome to drive etc
I'm happy to answer any questions you'd like to ask.
The regs are very free in theory. Original engine type means just what it says - for eg, you can't put a 2 litre Duratec in a Mk2 Ford Escort. If a car was originally built with Carbs then it has to run with Carbs, if it had Injection, however, i think you can run with Carbs or Throttle Bodies.
The key reg which does tend to limit development/ cost in a lot of areas is that shells/ body panels have to be original size and shape. You can use panels of different materials but it HAS to be to the original silhouete in EVERY PLANE. (oh & no space frame cars unless they were originally the method of construction for the road car, so no Eurocar type cars). What this means in practice is that its difficult to put big wheels on to a car & therefore difficult to fit big brakes etc etc. Engine development is relatively free but most peoples engines are relatively straightforward mods. The quickest cars in Tin Tops are the Honda Type Rs with 250(ish) Bhp at a guess. My Carina has 200 & I'm guessing that the 1800 MGZRs & the 1800 Honda Civic is similar. However, they are well dveloped cars and quite light and very stiff by comparion with their road car cousins. My car, and the 1800 Honda Civic are ex works cars for eg.
Lap times (and costs) are relatively limited by the insistance on List 1B tyres but these are still quite "sticky" compared to normal road car tyres.
Its a good series and the 40 minute races are great value for money. You can also share with a driver as there is a compulsory pit stop so you can share costs. The series is popular & there is alway someone to dice with. Driving standards are good and it is very novice friendly.
As a series, some of the cars in it will be pretty well developed but you can also race very happily and do very well in less sophisticated or expensive cars. My Alfa 33 was fantastic fun but I bought it for £600; the Uno cost me £2000 and was awesome to drive etc
I'm happy to answer any questions you'd like to ask.
Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 6th July 12:55
andy97 said:
bse said:
I'd understand "maintaining original induction" to mean that you couldn't add a turbo/supercharger to an NA engine.
CorrectAsk an insurer though, and they consider a conical air filter an 'induction kit' and penalise you accordingly.
Ponk said:
andy97 said:
bse said:
I'd understand "maintaining original induction" to mean that you couldn't add a turbo/supercharger to an NA engine.
CorrectTurbos/ Superchargers are allowed in the sister CSCC "Future Classics" series but only if originally fitted to that type of car. An equivelance factor of 1.7 is applied. So a Sierra Cosworth is allowed in Future Classics but would be in the 3 litre to 4 litre class because it would be considered to have an equivelant capacity of 3.4 litres.
Atomic Gibbon said:
I have put an R300 superlight (normal road trim, inc screen and doors, CR500 tyres) round Cadwell in 1.40.6. I am not a racing driver, it isn't my car, and somone decent would beat that considerably. To be within 1 second of the much more powerful R400 to me means that the times on that site are not exactly race standard.
To highlight the difference between track day and race times and tyres, the Super Graduates (screen and doors, Yoko AO48's 120bhp) lap record for Cadwell is 1:39.8@ wookie:
Gulp! That is some serious pace for a car of that power! Are the Yoko's much stickier, or do I need more practice? I suspect it's the latter =)
Either way, that sort of proves the R400 time on that site is far from an indication of the ultimate speeds different cars can go round circuits.
Gulp! That is some serious pace for a car of that power! Are the Yoko's much stickier, or do I need more practice? I suspect it's the latter =)
Either way, that sort of proves the R400 time on that site is far from an indication of the ultimate speeds different cars can go round circuits.
I would have thought that most race and road caterhams run list 1b tires, so shouldn't be a huge difference there. Change in compounds though. Race cars may benefit from a "tow" and that could affect times. Quickest road tyred caterham at cadwell is in the 1m 34/35sec territory (that being a r400).
Edited by Dan Friel on Tuesday 6th July 16:55
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