Racing Instructors - Yes or No?
Poll: Racing Instructors - Yes or No?
Total Members Polled: 59
Discussion
On the ‘defending your position thread, jellison made a comment along the lines of “if you need an instructor you shouldn’t be racing”. (Apologies if that’s a mis-quote, but if it is, I believe it is true to the spirit of jellison’s comment.) And that begs the question “Why?” Those of us who race spend time, effort and money on improving our cars’ performance. To not spend effort on improving the driver’s performance seems short-sighted.
Top tennis and golf players have coaches, why shouldn’t race drivers?
(Is it because you need bigger balls to race cars than to play golf or tennis?)
Top tennis and golf players have coaches, why shouldn’t race drivers?
(Is it because you need bigger balls to race cars than to play golf or tennis?)
Yes, racing is a constant learning process, a 2nd pair of eyes to look at what your doing, and suggest improvments will make you quiker and safer. Given time you may work it all out for your self, but with an instructor you'll learn faster..
its the same as testing.. you can race by just wheeling the car out of the garage and straight onto the grid, but if you do some testing you'll generally drive better..
its just a macho thing to say you cant be helped by anyone else..
as for being insecure in your own abilities if you use an instructor
I reckon its the more insecure person who cant accept that they can improve.
I like to think im fairly handy behind the wheel, half the races i've done in the last 2 years i've won, the rest on the podium or mechanical dnf. but due to the fact I've not been signed up by audi to shake down the R15 for them I expect there is room for improvment. Im always after that extra tenth, and if an instructor can help me find it quicker and cheaper than me working it out for my self i'll use one.
Its abit like the story of the chap that broke th 4 min mile running.. he felt he had to project the image that he was a natural and didnt have to work at it. in reality he did just as much training as everyone else but did it alone at night.
Do you have to have an instructor, no will it help you almost certainly..
its the same as testing.. you can race by just wheeling the car out of the garage and straight onto the grid, but if you do some testing you'll generally drive better..
its just a macho thing to say you cant be helped by anyone else..
as for being insecure in your own abilities if you use an instructor
I reckon its the more insecure person who cant accept that they can improve.I like to think im fairly handy behind the wheel, half the races i've done in the last 2 years i've won, the rest on the podium or mechanical dnf. but due to the fact I've not been signed up by audi to shake down the R15 for them I expect there is room for improvment. Im always after that extra tenth, and if an instructor can help me find it quicker and cheaper than me working it out for my self i'll use one.
Its abit like the story of the chap that broke th 4 min mile running.. he felt he had to project the image that he was a natural and didnt have to work at it. in reality he did just as much training as everyone else but did it alone at night.
Do you have to have an instructor, no will it help you almost certainly..
Edited by Graham on Wednesday 23 June 11:27
To quote a recent customer:
'I come to the circuit, build up to a speed but then cannot go faster'.
By the end of the day he was some 3 seconds per lap quicker than his best lap of the first session. More importantly he knew why and how to replicate it again (and in fact was at far less risk of spinning / going off).
Whats the main role of a coach? Look at your technique, analyse where it could be improved and modify the technique to get a better result (proving the remedy).
I'm biased of course with driver training being my means of making a living. When I started racing though I had tuition for my first 2 seasons.
'I come to the circuit, build up to a speed but then cannot go faster'.
By the end of the day he was some 3 seconds per lap quicker than his best lap of the first session. More importantly he knew why and how to replicate it again (and in fact was at far less risk of spinning / going off).
Whats the main role of a coach? Look at your technique, analyse where it could be improved and modify the technique to get a better result (proving the remedy).
I'm biased of course with driver training being my means of making a living. When I started racing though I had tuition for my first 2 seasons.
Just had a thought.
Th way I try to improve - if I make a cock-up. Or do not do as well as I felt I should on the day or to try to identify a car issue is to always have a video of the race.
Easy to spot where you are slow or can improve. These should be small things, if they are Big, well maybe you just think you are quick but when it come to the track you find out your really aren't. New hobby?
Th way I try to improve - if I make a cock-up. Or do not do as well as I felt I should on the day or to try to identify a car issue is to always have a video of the race.
Easy to spot where you are slow or can improve. These should be small things, if they are Big, well maybe you just think you are quick but when it come to the track you find out your really aren't. New hobby?
jellison said:
I'd rather shoot my foot off.
But if you are slow - then go for it what ever makes you feel warm and fuzzy.
I'm not looking for a quarrel, I'm genuinely interested in knowing why you say that, jellison.But if you are slow - then go for it what ever makes you feel warm and fuzzy.
Is it because you haven't ever met an instructor that you thought was up to the job?
I don't believe that the basic skills that make a person a vaguely competent steerer can be learnt or taught, but I do believe that unless we're being paid to race cars, we would benefit from the right instruction. For most of us posting on here we do something else for a living, and then get to race maybe once a month. Doesn't that leave an awful lot of room to shorten the learning curve?
James
So you do admit to using tool's to help you eliminate cockups and go faster then?
so why is using video, data logging etc ok, but using a coach renders you a bed wetting nancy boy ?
true if you go with the approach you know best your probably not going to listen and will never get anything from an instructor, but if your open to advice it can be useful.
Maybe its the fear of being told your actually s
t and should take up golf
I'll happily listen to anyones opionion and if I think it makes sense I'll use the advice.
edited to say :- Im not an instructor by the way, but i did do the race intensive course at silverstone in the early days, and do talk to coaches every now and then.
edited again to say :- feck it I certainly need a spelling and typing coach !!!!
so why is using video, data logging etc ok, but using a coach renders you a bed wetting nancy boy ?
true if you go with the approach you know best your probably not going to listen and will never get anything from an instructor, but if your open to advice it can be useful.
Maybe its the fear of being told your actually s
t and should take up golf I'll happily listen to anyones opionion and if I think it makes sense I'll use the advice.
edited to say :- Im not an instructor by the way, but i did do the race intensive course at silverstone in the early days, and do talk to coaches every now and then.
edited again to say :- feck it I certainly need a spelling and typing coach !!!!
Edited by Graham on Wednesday 23 June 11:37
If you are always in the top 1 or 2 cars in your class or the race overall you should know what you are doing. That is kind of what I am saying.
yep I make the odd cockup and just interesting to see it on tap (but I usually know what or why I have done it), vids or mates watching good for car handling and seeing where you might be slow though. Good example was my car in a recent race - I was driving the wheels off it but over a second off it with mods that should have made it faster (combo of people watching and watching the vid pointed me to what was wrong I then went through the car in that area till I found the issue and sorted it). Next race, car all fixed and quicker than most of the cars in the next class up.
But for me no on the coach front. It might be fine if it was on Football - which I suck at (and is frankly a bit Gay), or any team sport for that matter, and I wanted to be good or better at it, but for me unless you are naturally inclined to a sport why would you waste you time at it.
I don't do Sports bar car racing, Mountain biking - which is not a race, but more for the fitness and for the rush / adrenaline and similar for the gym weights
yep I make the odd cockup and just interesting to see it on tap (but I usually know what or why I have done it), vids or mates watching good for car handling and seeing where you might be slow though. Good example was my car in a recent race - I was driving the wheels off it but over a second off it with mods that should have made it faster (combo of people watching and watching the vid pointed me to what was wrong I then went through the car in that area till I found the issue and sorted it). Next race, car all fixed and quicker than most of the cars in the next class up.
But for me no on the coach front. It might be fine if it was on Football - which I suck at (and is frankly a bit Gay), or any team sport for that matter, and I wanted to be good or better at it, but for me unless you are naturally inclined to a sport why would you waste you time at it.
I don't do Sports bar car racing, Mountain biking - which is not a race, but more for the fitness and for the rush / adrenaline and similar for the gym weights
I still dont get it, you'll listen to what friends say watching you and your car, but dis someone doing it as a proffession..
I'd agree you have to have a basic aptitude for the sport your competing in, but after that to get better I'll use any tool at my disposal. looking at lap times, video, talking to engineers, driver coaches etc etc imho they can a make a difference.
for example going to a circuit I've never been to ( only good wood in the uk now) or one that i've only been to once in 10 years ( donny,thruxton, coombe) If i had the time and the budget I'd go round the track with an instructor first as it allows me to get up to speed much, much faster
I think you'll find most of the F1 boys if not all have had coaching at some point although most will probably deny it...
I'd agree you have to have a basic aptitude for the sport your competing in, but after that to get better I'll use any tool at my disposal. looking at lap times, video, talking to engineers, driver coaches etc etc imho they can a make a difference.
for example going to a circuit I've never been to ( only good wood in the uk now) or one that i've only been to once in 10 years ( donny,thruxton, coombe) If i had the time and the budget I'd go round the track with an instructor first as it allows me to get up to speed much, much faster
I think you'll find most of the F1 boys if not all have had coaching at some point although most will probably deny it...
The point is that instructors and coaches can be used for a variety of purposes. Like everyone else, when he did the MSA Nat B course, Jellison would have been shown the ropes by an instructor and no doubt talked round the first few tentative laps. That's where the use ceased for him, fair enough.
However, after this initial insight, many novice drivers use instructors to speed the learning process, and as a result achieve a better standard in a shorter time.
It's all very well having a video camera in the car and identifying your own weaknesses, but what if you're not aware of them? How many seasons did it take to learn that "driving trait x" was slowing you down, but "driving trait y" was improving lap times? To the uninitiated, one in car video can look very similar to another, and the quicker you drive, the more subtle these differences become. This is where an experienced, competent instructor will start to earn his or her money, as they will notice the tiny subtle mistakes that you might miss, or pass off as being normal technique.
To use a very simplistic analogy, you can give a student a book and ask them to learn something for themselves, but schools employ teachers to ease the process, and the knowledge is imparted a lot quicker. (Leaving out all criticisms of modern schooling systems!)
Once the basics have been established and a driver is competing at a certain level, they may consider that to be as good as they can be, at which point Jellison would decide this racing lark isnt for him and pack up, or move to a formula where the standard was lower. However another driver might employ an instructor to find out where further improvements can be made. As Ben points out there are plenty of cases of drivers reaching a certain level, and no matter how many times they visit the circuit, simply cannot lap any faster. This is normally down to an absence of knowledge or a small number of fundamental flaws which are impossible to recognise in ones own technique. A secondary pair of experienced, objective eyes can spot these imperfections and away we go again on the road to improvement.
Using an instructor is a tool like any other for improving driving. Exactly the same as testing prior to a race meeting, reading a circuit guide or asking a fellow competitor his opinion on gear changes or lines, all of which I am sure even the most sceptical and egocentric of driver will have done at some point.
It should also be said that simply sitting next to a driver and pointing out "brake, turn, power, more, less, good, bad, well done" etc is probably not good enough, but does represent the perception of a lot of people who have never received instruction.
More commonly, an instructor will come with a specific area of expertise, and should be employed as such. This maybe in data analysis, car control or in a specific type of car, or any number of other topics.
Data analysis is a particular hobby (including a uni dissertation) of mine, and when combined with some in car tuition of the basic techniques can make for a superb combination in improving a driver, as long as they are willing to be honest and believe what they are being told.
The long and the short of it being, it's whatever works for the individual driver. If a driver is not willing to accept the view of another person regardless of their experience, then they will never benefit from instruction or coaching, but in my view they will only ever reach a certain level of ability, and have a quite substantial amount of untapped potential.
However, after this initial insight, many novice drivers use instructors to speed the learning process, and as a result achieve a better standard in a shorter time.
It's all very well having a video camera in the car and identifying your own weaknesses, but what if you're not aware of them? How many seasons did it take to learn that "driving trait x" was slowing you down, but "driving trait y" was improving lap times? To the uninitiated, one in car video can look very similar to another, and the quicker you drive, the more subtle these differences become. This is where an experienced, competent instructor will start to earn his or her money, as they will notice the tiny subtle mistakes that you might miss, or pass off as being normal technique.
To use a very simplistic analogy, you can give a student a book and ask them to learn something for themselves, but schools employ teachers to ease the process, and the knowledge is imparted a lot quicker. (Leaving out all criticisms of modern schooling systems!)
Once the basics have been established and a driver is competing at a certain level, they may consider that to be as good as they can be, at which point Jellison would decide this racing lark isnt for him and pack up, or move to a formula where the standard was lower. However another driver might employ an instructor to find out where further improvements can be made. As Ben points out there are plenty of cases of drivers reaching a certain level, and no matter how many times they visit the circuit, simply cannot lap any faster. This is normally down to an absence of knowledge or a small number of fundamental flaws which are impossible to recognise in ones own technique. A secondary pair of experienced, objective eyes can spot these imperfections and away we go again on the road to improvement.
Using an instructor is a tool like any other for improving driving. Exactly the same as testing prior to a race meeting, reading a circuit guide or asking a fellow competitor his opinion on gear changes or lines, all of which I am sure even the most sceptical and egocentric of driver will have done at some point.
It should also be said that simply sitting next to a driver and pointing out "brake, turn, power, more, less, good, bad, well done" etc is probably not good enough, but does represent the perception of a lot of people who have never received instruction.
More commonly, an instructor will come with a specific area of expertise, and should be employed as such. This maybe in data analysis, car control or in a specific type of car, or any number of other topics.
Data analysis is a particular hobby (including a uni dissertation) of mine, and when combined with some in car tuition of the basic techniques can make for a superb combination in improving a driver, as long as they are willing to be honest and believe what they are being told.
The long and the short of it being, it's whatever works for the individual driver. If a driver is not willing to accept the view of another person regardless of their experience, then they will never benefit from instruction or coaching, but in my view they will only ever reach a certain level of ability, and have a quite substantial amount of untapped potential.
jellison said:
I got my license 20 years back - no instructor - just send your money off.
Do you think Gerry Marshall had lessons (he would have laughed at the idea). Like I said, if you think they will improve your performance, go for it. I'd rather spend it on the car and race entries
Haha! That'll teach me to make assumptions wont it?!Do you think Gerry Marshall had lessons (he would have laughed at the idea). Like I said, if you think they will improve your performance, go for it. I'd rather spend it on the car and race entries
Agreed about Marshall, but how many of his ilk exist?
For the majority it remains an exceedingly cost effective way of going faster and safer. Perhaps you should look at life on the other side of the fence and have a go at doing some instructing and coaching? It's highly rewarding to watch a driver improve as a result of your efforts.
I am in my first season of racing.
My car is under powered, under braked and has a poor suspension set-up compared to my fellow competitors.
However, at this time I feel that the car is still quicker than me. ie I am not getting the best out of it yet.
For that reason, if I had the cash spare, I would rather spend it on driver coaching than the glory mods to gain big power.
As they say, power is nothing without control.
Further to that, if i was to move on to another car/ series I would be able to take my new 'knowledge' with me.
What are the costs involved in coaching?
My car is under powered, under braked and has a poor suspension set-up compared to my fellow competitors.
However, at this time I feel that the car is still quicker than me. ie I am not getting the best out of it yet.
For that reason, if I had the cash spare, I would rather spend it on driver coaching than the glory mods to gain big power.
As they say, power is nothing without control.
Further to that, if i was to move on to another car/ series I would be able to take my new 'knowledge' with me.
What are the costs involved in coaching?
indigorallye said:
I am in my first season of racing.
My car is under powered, under braked and has a poor suspension set-up compared to my fellow competitors.
However, at this time I feel that the car is still quicker than me. ie I am not getting the best out of it yet.
For that reason, if I had the cash spare, I would rather spend it on driver coaching than the glory mods to gain big power.
As they say, power is nothing without control.
Further to that, if i was to move on to another car/ series I would be able to take my new 'knowledge' with me.
What are the costs involved in coaching?
YHM My car is under powered, under braked and has a poor suspension set-up compared to my fellow competitors.
However, at this time I feel that the car is still quicker than me. ie I am not getting the best out of it yet.
For that reason, if I had the cash spare, I would rather spend it on driver coaching than the glory mods to gain big power.
As they say, power is nothing without control.
Further to that, if i was to move on to another car/ series I would be able to take my new 'knowledge' with me.
What are the costs involved in coaching?
indigorallye said:
I am in my first season of racing.
My car is under powered, under braked and has a poor suspension set-up compared to my fellow competitors.
However, at this time I feel that the car is still quicker than me. ie I am not getting the best out of it yet.
For that reason, if I had the cash spare, I would rather spend it on driver coaching than the glory mods to gain big power.
As they say, power is nothing without control.
Further to that, if i was to move on to another car/ series I would be able to take my new 'knowledge' with me.
What are the costs involved in coaching?
depends who you use, anywhere from £200 per day to a £1000.My car is under powered, under braked and has a poor suspension set-up compared to my fellow competitors.
However, at this time I feel that the car is still quicker than me. ie I am not getting the best out of it yet.
For that reason, if I had the cash spare, I would rather spend it on driver coaching than the glory mods to gain big power.
As they say, power is nothing without control.
Further to that, if i was to move on to another car/ series I would be able to take my new 'knowledge' with me.
What are the costs involved in coaching?
you need to choose someone you trust, has a proven track record and comes recommended. there are plenty of instructors out there who get in your car, drive it a second a lap faster than you but don't tell you how, then go home to their mates and tell them how great they are.
you could try
rob wilson - £1000 per day
john stevens - £600 per 4 hours ( racecoaching.com)
eugene o brien, £500 per day but bulk discounts
mike wilds - £500 per day
malcolm smith - £300 - £500 per day
then there are the guys who post on here, of whom i'm not certain about as i don't know their racing history to be able to comment on their usefulness.
jellison said:
Not sure I could sit next to anyone without my own pedals and steering wheel.
Raced Gerry a few times, but never in the same class, now THAT would have been something. The other Marsh car (DB4) was often way under utilised in the ski dept
........ I happen to be coaching the man who owns & races "the other Marsh car" & I'm sure that he would agree with me, when I suggest that you are a somewhat disillusioned, or to be more to the point,....clueless about the subject. I would love to sit with you one day & fully assess your (in)ability!!!Raced Gerry a few times, but never in the same class, now THAT would have been something. The other Marsh car (DB4) was often way under utilised in the ski dept
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