Roadgoing Production Class - Sprinting - tech question?
Discussion
Hi,
I'm still unclear about my existing mods and eligability for this class.
My car maintains the same suspension type - double wishbone with coilovers - but the ride height,damper rates and spring rates are changed.
I also have a stiffer front roll bar.
Wheels are free I know, but confined to list 1A tyres so no issue there.
The rest of the car besides adjustable toe arms is oem so I dont see any other problems.
Has this been fianally cleared up as there seems a degree of confusion on many sites.
The 2010 wording suggests that so long as suspension design isn't changed, the rest is free?
I'm still unclear about my existing mods and eligability for this class.
My car maintains the same suspension type - double wishbone with coilovers - but the ride height,damper rates and spring rates are changed.
I also have a stiffer front roll bar.
Wheels are free I know, but confined to list 1A tyres so no issue there.
The rest of the car besides adjustable toe arms is oem so I dont see any other problems.
Has this been fianally cleared up as there seems a degree of confusion on many sites.
The 2010 wording suggests that so long as suspension design isn't changed, the rest is free?
m1bjr said:
Hi,
I'm still unclear about my existing mods and eligability for this class.
My car maintains the same suspension type - double wishbone with coilovers - but the ride height,damper rates and spring rates are changed.
I also have a stiffer front roll bar.
Wheels are free I know, but confined to list 1A tyres so no issue there.
The rest of the car besides adjustable toe arms is oem so I dont see any other problems.
Has this been fianally cleared up as there seems a degree of confusion on many sites.
The 2010 wording suggests that so long as suspension design isn't changed, the rest is free?
Sounds like you've simply fitted coilovers (and the RB). Thats fine.I'm still unclear about my existing mods and eligability for this class.
My car maintains the same suspension type - double wishbone with coilovers - but the ride height,damper rates and spring rates are changed.
I also have a stiffer front roll bar.
Wheels are free I know, but confined to list 1A tyres so no issue there.
The rest of the car besides adjustable toe arms is oem so I dont see any other problems.
Has this been fianally cleared up as there seems a degree of confusion on many sites.
The 2010 wording suggests that so long as suspension design isn't changed, the rest is free?
For roadgoing production cars the Bluebook states "suspension configuration must remain standard". I interpret this as being able to uprate components such as springs, ARB's, etc so long as the original design and pick up points remain the same.
List 1B tyres are also permitted in this class depending upon which championship you enter.
List 1B tyres are also permitted in this class depending upon which championship you enter.
Trev450 said:
For roadgoing production cars the Bluebook states "suspension configuration must remain standard". I interpret this as being able to uprate components such as springs, ARB's, etc so long as the original design and pick up points remain the same.
That's the interpretation that is in general use in my part of the world and the intent of the S&HSC in writing the regulations that way. Championships are of course free to impose more restrictive rules on modifications and require original springs / ARBs / dampers if they wish.Not that anyone ever puts money on the table at a speed event to protest eligibility but I don't know any clerks who would interpret the statement that "suspension configuration must remain standard" as "suspension components must remain standard." I've given up my clerking licence this year as I'm unhappy with the declaration I am required to sign on the renewal and the MSA have been spectacularly bad at answering any communication regarding it, but I would tell any scrutineer who tried to move someone into modified over changed spring rates to reconsider.
thats a good reply Ono, im considering trying a ouija board and incantations to get the MSA to answer any communications in future...
To be honest if the Blue Book was written in english rather than Bluebookese, then 95% of the enquiries they get wouldnt happen anyway. Surely it would be worth an ex-employee of the Campaign for Plain English on the MSA staff would help with the 2011 blue book.
does really annoy me that WE are the customer (in the case of competitors) and get treated badly by OUR governing body!! certainly from what ive seen, sprint/hill eventing officials all do it for the love of the sport and continue to do so in spite of also being treated like lepers. Summats gotta change.
To be honest if the Blue Book was written in english rather than Bluebookese, then 95% of the enquiries they get wouldnt happen anyway. Surely it would be worth an ex-employee of the Campaign for Plain English on the MSA staff would help with the 2011 blue book.
does really annoy me that WE are the customer (in the case of competitors) and get treated badly by OUR governing body!! certainly from what ive seen, sprint/hill eventing officials all do it for the love of the sport and continue to do so in spite of also being treated like lepers. Summats gotta change.
Trev450 said:
papercup said:
Sorry, i assumed you meant modified. In standard production I am fairly sure you cannot change them from standard. Check with the organiser.
The title of the thread is a bit of a give away 
I have not seen any championship regs for sprinting that allow a change in suspension rates. If you want to run in the standard class I believe you can only remove carpet, change seats & add safety equipment, (harness, extinguisher, cutoff switches). A change in spring rate is an upgrade to "modified".
At my level of competition the onus on honesty is up to the driver. The scrutineers only inspect on safety & noise. However if your car sits lower & rolls less than the next guy in the same car & class, someone may get upset.
At my level of competition the onus on honesty is up to the driver. The scrutineers only inspect on safety & noise. However if your car sits lower & rolls less than the next guy in the same car & class, someone may get upset.
It would appear there's a little confusion on the thread regarding the classes.
Looking at the blue book the standard production would appear to be no more, being replace with road going production class
These seam to allow for more mods than the standard production class such as induction / exhaust modifications allowed
Reading through the regs at the moment, they can be found here for anyone who need them http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/blueb...
full blue book is here http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewarticle.a...
Looking at the blue book the standard production would appear to be no more, being replace with road going production class
These seam to allow for more mods than the standard production class such as induction / exhaust modifications allowed
Reading through the regs at the moment, they can be found here for anyone who need them http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/blueb...
full blue book is here http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewarticle.a...
Kevp said:
I have not seen any championship regs for sprinting that allow a change in suspension rates. If you want to run in the standard class I believe you can only remove carpet, change seats & add safety equipment, (harness, extinguisher, cutoff switches). A change in spring rate is an upgrade to "modified".
There is no "standard" category defined in the blue book. If the question were about a standard class then eligibility decisions would have to be based on championship regulations, not the book. The class would have to exist within the roadgoing production category but with championship / event regulations imposing tighter controls on modifications allowed.In "roadgoing production" as defined in the blue book spring rates can be altered.
A car not eligible for a standard class within the roadgoing production category due to spring rates should be moved into a different class within roadgoing production that allows more modifications. It should on no account end up in modified production, which is a different category where slicks are allowed and roll cages (amongst other safety requirements) are mandatory.
CNHSS1 said:
To be honest if the Blue Book was written in english rather than Bluebookese, then 95% of the enquiries they get wouldnt happen anyway. Surely it would be worth an ex-employee of the Campaign for Plain English on the MSA staff would help with the 2011 blue book.
does really annoy me that WE are the customer (in the case of competitors) and get treated badly by OUR governing body!! certainly from what ive seen, sprint/hill eventing officials all do it for the love of the sport and continue to do so in spite of also being treated like lepers. Summats gotta change.
The book is written by the specialist committees, not by the staff at the MSA. If you ring the MSA and try to get a ruling on what is allowed under eligibility regulations you will at best get the opinion of a member of the permenant staff (probably John Symes on technical things, if he's there).does really annoy me that WE are the customer (in the case of competitors) and get treated badly by OUR governing body!! certainly from what ive seen, sprint/hill eventing officials all do it for the love of the sport and continue to do so in spite of also being treated like lepers. Summats gotta change.
I know that S&HSC (or at least some of its members, all volunteers again) is attempting to get what is now section S into a clearer form, I've seen a massive spreadsheet of categories and modifications allowed that one of the members is working on in an attempt to rationalise it into something easier to understand. You know what - it's bloody difficult to change regulations without having masses of unintended consequences (as happened when the categories became mandatory and it looked like roadgoing production was going to end up very different in some parts of the country from what had gone before).
andye30m3 said:
It would appear there's a little confusion on the thread regarding the classes.
Looking at the blue book the standard production would appear to be no more, being replace with road going production class
These seam to allow for more mods than the standard production class such as induction / exhaust modifications allowed
Reading through the regs at the moment, they can be found here for anyone who need them http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/blueb...
full blue book is here http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewarticle.a...
Yes, it went this way last year. I gave up trying to understand the blue book at that point and instead of modifying my car further, simply modify my class Looking at the blue book the standard production would appear to be no more, being replace with road going production class
These seam to allow for more mods than the standard production class such as induction / exhaust modifications allowed
Reading through the regs at the moment, they can be found here for anyone who need them http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/blueb...
full blue book is here http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewarticle.a...
We've seen all types of confusion in the TWMC All Circuit this year. Mid-morning at Goodwood, a 600bhp Skyline who had been in Mod Prod with me got chucked into 'Production 4WD' with some poor sod in a standard Scooby (which he then annihilated) because he had no roll cage. Then someone realised the Skyline had 888s on which he wasn't allowed in the class he'd been moved into. Then everyone just gave up and carried on with their day.
Ono
yes i realise i was being a bit blase and silly, i realise its a thankless task. Ive had a number of dealings with John Symes, John Ryan etc etc at MSA HQ and have found the info to be less than crystal. In fact often a page long email with (i beleive) well worded and concise questions resulted in a 3 line response often of little use.
Again, i realise the speed committees are trying to rationalise the blue books wording to improve things, but personally id prefer to see the pain taken in one hit, ie just one year when everything changes and then a number of subsequent seasons where few or no changes are needed, but small changes, often ambiguously worded can cause issues.
Re the 'std' and Roadgoing sections, this has been brought up by our guys numerous times, and yet ironically its never well supported (within our championship). Sods Law eh?
Maybe a set of published 'clarifcations' from HQ would help everyone and cause them less grief in the long run? I do feel for Scrutes who often get it in the neck (at an event) when they query a cars conformity, as often they are as in the dark as the competitors lol
I think that despite the recession, the MSA and Speed eventing sections could steal a march and actually grow given a bit of help and push, as maybe those that would like to start circuit racing, rallying or similar but wouldnt want to commit big money in these uncertain times, could relatively cheaply compete in speed events (especially in the more standard roadgoing car classes) , gain experience for other disciplines in the future.
speed events are always seen as grass roots or first rung on the ladder by some anyway (not strictly true in my or im sure your opinion Ono) so would seem an ideal section in which to extoll the virtues laid down by the MSAs own 'Go Motorsport' initiatve and get 'Newbies' involved, but if the regs are confusing (to experienced officials and competitors alike), the MSA and we as speed eventers, are shooting ourselves in the foot.
Sorry for the long winded semi-rant, but i love the sport and hate to see anything avoidable that can hamper its progress
yes i realise i was being a bit blase and silly, i realise its a thankless task. Ive had a number of dealings with John Symes, John Ryan etc etc at MSA HQ and have found the info to be less than crystal. In fact often a page long email with (i beleive) well worded and concise questions resulted in a 3 line response often of little use.
Again, i realise the speed committees are trying to rationalise the blue books wording to improve things, but personally id prefer to see the pain taken in one hit, ie just one year when everything changes and then a number of subsequent seasons where few or no changes are needed, but small changes, often ambiguously worded can cause issues.
Re the 'std' and Roadgoing sections, this has been brought up by our guys numerous times, and yet ironically its never well supported (within our championship). Sods Law eh?
Maybe a set of published 'clarifcations' from HQ would help everyone and cause them less grief in the long run? I do feel for Scrutes who often get it in the neck (at an event) when they query a cars conformity, as often they are as in the dark as the competitors lol
I think that despite the recession, the MSA and Speed eventing sections could steal a march and actually grow given a bit of help and push, as maybe those that would like to start circuit racing, rallying or similar but wouldnt want to commit big money in these uncertain times, could relatively cheaply compete in speed events (especially in the more standard roadgoing car classes) , gain experience for other disciplines in the future.
speed events are always seen as grass roots or first rung on the ladder by some anyway (not strictly true in my or im sure your opinion Ono) so would seem an ideal section in which to extoll the virtues laid down by the MSAs own 'Go Motorsport' initiatve and get 'Newbies' involved, but if the regs are confusing (to experienced officials and competitors alike), the MSA and we as speed eventers, are shooting ourselves in the foot.
Sorry for the long winded semi-rant, but i love the sport and hate to see anything avoidable that can hamper its progress
CNHSS1 said:
Re the 'std' and Roadgoing sections, this has been brought up by our guys numerous times, and yet ironically its never well supported (within our championship). Sods Law eh?
Well, given the mixture of conflicting answers received even in this thread, and a sincere thank you to all contributors, it's not surprising.Maybe they all gave up and went back to track days after banging heads for too long?
I may be the next to do the same
Edited by m1bjr on Sunday 17th January 22:19
"Standard" classes where pretty much no modifications are allowed have never been popular, the problems are that those with the biggest wallet can afford the best car for a particular class and with no mods allowed other cars cannot be made competitive. Also people tend to want to develop their car and as soon as you do something like fit different springs you are into roadgoing, so people don't tend to stay in "standard" for very long.
Doesn't stop a championship or event running the classes within roadgoing, provided they define the properly.
Doesn't stop a championship or event running the classes within roadgoing, provided they define the properly.
would agree, std class is almost pointless in reality, as most get the bug bigtime and want to improve their cars, however roadbased they are.
As for putting you off, it shouldnt, its just that starting with the regs is possibly not the best way and certainly not the easiest way to understand whats going on. Think of making a cup of tea, watch someone do it and its a piece of cake, but if you had to read it as a set of instructions it would be pages and pages and probably confuse!
pop along to an event, most clubs and venues have a pre season test day and talk to the scrutineers, will become much clearer and not the bugber myself and others have made it seem Apologies if ive confused you.
as for trackdays, yes theres loads of tracktime and few rules, but theres also no competition element...
As for putting you off, it shouldnt, its just that starting with the regs is possibly not the best way and certainly not the easiest way to understand whats going on. Think of making a cup of tea, watch someone do it and its a piece of cake, but if you had to read it as a set of instructions it would be pages and pages and probably confuse!
pop along to an event, most clubs and venues have a pre season test day and talk to the scrutineers, will become much clearer and not the bugber myself and others have made it seem
Apologies if ive confused you.as for trackdays, yes theres loads of tracktime and few rules, but theres also no competition element...
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