MSUK ‘series’ change proposal
Discussion
On the heels of the GPS proposal last week we have another, bigger issue
https://motorsportuk.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/wp...
Restricting rounds, can't have an official race abroad, can’t use the name you want
I’m really not sure what problem they’re trying to fix with this nonsense
https://motorsportuk.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/wp...
Restricting rounds, can't have an official race abroad, can’t use the name you want
I’m really not sure what problem they’re trying to fix with this nonsense
Pretty certain the restriction or rounds , no awards and non overseas events has been mandated for ‘series’ for ever.
Most new championships have to run as ‘series’ status for the first year due to various reasons such as not diluting the existing championships competitors. It would be easy to set up a series for Type R Honda civics and pinch competitors from civic cup or type r trophy for example.
So I suspect that this is a way to stop the dilution of existing championships , that is you get no fringe benefits from a series over a championship: also suspect that the MSUK fees are higher with a championship
Most new championships have to run as ‘series’ status for the first year due to various reasons such as not diluting the existing championships competitors. It would be easy to set up a series for Type R Honda civics and pinch competitors from civic cup or type r trophy for example.
So I suspect that this is a way to stop the dilution of existing championships , that is you get no fringe benefits from a series over a championship: also suspect that the MSUK fees are higher with a championship
I have been a club racer in some form for around 40 years if you include karts. I now race in a series with the CSCC, a good club.
I now have the time to race, which was often a challenge at other times. Budget restrictions have generally been a constant.
Why on earth should I be restricted to 6 races a year? And no Spa which I did earlier this year.
I have increasingly less time for MSuk; I have never felt in 40 years that they are genuinely interested in supporting or understanding many forms of motorsport- sure they make all the right noises but it just looks from the outside like a self serving private club committed to ensure that the path to high level motorsport is alive and well for minted parents to invest from an early age.
Despite reams of guff about inclusivity, opportunity and respect this type of intervention from MSuk flies directly in the face of that.
Which proves my point that my perception is probably correct and MSuk really has little genuine interest in supporting a broad church and wide range of activities.
In the spirit of competition, I do wish there was an alternative to motorsport without MSuk. Perhaps things would be a little less cosy.
I reserve the right to be completely wrong with my assumptions.
I now have the time to race, which was often a challenge at other times. Budget restrictions have generally been a constant.
Why on earth should I be restricted to 6 races a year? And no Spa which I did earlier this year.
I have increasingly less time for MSuk; I have never felt in 40 years that they are genuinely interested in supporting or understanding many forms of motorsport- sure they make all the right noises but it just looks from the outside like a self serving private club committed to ensure that the path to high level motorsport is alive and well for minted parents to invest from an early age.
Despite reams of guff about inclusivity, opportunity and respect this type of intervention from MSuk flies directly in the face of that.
Which proves my point that my perception is probably correct and MSuk really has little genuine interest in supporting a broad church and wide range of activities.
In the spirit of competition, I do wish there was an alternative to motorsport without MSuk. Perhaps things would be a little less cosy.
I reserve the right to be completely wrong with my assumptions.
afewbeers said:
...Despite reams of guff about inclusivity, opportunity and respect this type of intervention from MSuk flies directly in the face of that....
A good point.Also, as all these series and championships are commercial enterprises by the various organisers the governing body shouldn't really be putting in restrictions to favour one type of event over another. Let the market decide.
(I always thought the distinction between a series and a championship was a nonsense anyway (although there might be a good reason that isn't obvious to the layman)).
Truckosaurus said:
afewbeers said:
...Despite reams of guff about inclusivity, opportunity and respect this type of intervention from MSuk flies directly in the face of that....
A good point.Also, as all these series and championships are commercial enterprises by the various organisers the governing body shouldn't really be putting in restrictions to favour one type of event over another. Let the market decide.
(I always thought the distinction between a series and a championship was a nonsense anyway (although there might be a good reason that isn't obvious to the layman)).
As far as i'm aware, a series is just that - a series of races. A championship is a series of races whereby points are awarded in return for placings in a championship table, either as a whole field of competitors or split in to classes. From the series vs championship point of view I can't really see an issue - people who want to race in series, why wouldn't they just race in a championship and avoid any rounds they don't want or can't afford to enter? Given the prices some clubs charge for annual membership and race entry fees I don't think asking some of them to put effort in to awarding points and updating a championship table is too much - probably miles off base though given i've never organised a motorsport event in my life...
Chunkychucky said:
Truckosaurus said:
afewbeers said:
...Despite reams of guff about inclusivity, opportunity and respect this type of intervention from MSuk flies directly in the face of that....
A good point.Also, as all these series and championships are commercial enterprises by the various organisers the governing body shouldn't really be putting in restrictions to favour one type of event over another. Let the market decide.
(I always thought the distinction between a series and a championship was a nonsense anyway (although there might be a good reason that isn't obvious to the layman)).
As far as i'm aware, a series is just that - a series of races. A championship is a series of races whereby points are awarded in return for placings in a championship table, either as a whole field of competitors or split in to classes. From the series vs championship point of view I can't really see an issue - people who want to race in series, why wouldn't they just race in a championship and avoid any rounds they don't want or can't afford to enter? Given the prices some clubs charge for annual membership and race entry fees I don't think asking some of them to put effort in to awarding points and updating a championship table is too much - probably miles off base though given i've never organised a motorsport event in my life...
the MSUK may be put under pressure by some clubs to enforce these changes to 'series'. Basically, for less investment from a club they can run a race series and have rounds abroad and club awards nights and unofficial championship tables. So maybe some clubs are annoyed by this. Entries are down this year quite a bit across the board, and so the series nature of some championships may suit more drivers as they dip in and and out and that a series allows someone to do that more easily.
Although I can't quite see how it got past the race committee ( what do they actually do)
I think the MSUK should continue to support talent into the top echelon it keeps motorsport relevant and keeps eyeballs on the sport making it harder to ban ( environmentalists) but...
Hugh Chamberlin is a slick front man, and David Richards is .... commercial.
Having watched a few of DannyDc2 vids in Japan, where it would appear you can race in your t-shirt and shorts, in cars without a roll cage and time on track days you have to wonder whether the MSUK ever challenge the insurers in the UK and push back on some quite fanciful requirements.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Having watched a few of DannyDc2 vids in Japan, where it would appear you can race in your t-shirt and shorts, in cars without a roll cage and time on track days you have to wonder whether the MSUK ever challenge the insurers in the UK and push back on some quite fanciful requirements.
I must confess to not having seen those videos, but it's a good way of making motorsport more accessible for people - if someone thinks they might enjoy competing in motorsport, then has to go out to buy £1,000+ worth of fireproofs/gloves etc., then (depending on series regulations) purchasing further £'00s of FIA-approved belts, fire supression etc etc. it can be daunting to say the least, perhaps even off-putting to some. Everyone going in to motorsport knows 'Motorsport is Dangerous', people accept these risks and adhere to the regulations, however everyone is different and perceptions to levels of risk change from person to person. I would be happy to go out in a circuit race in a closed car wearing comfortable clothing, a helmet and gloves, i'd forgo the whole HANS/fireproof overalls if we were allowed the free choice, though appreciate this view is in the minority and somewhat antiquated - i'd also bring car racing back to Dundrod and restart the Targa Florio so probably for the best that i'm not in a position of power
Chunkychucky said:
I must confess to not having seen those videos, but it's a good way of making motorsport more accessible for people - if someone thinks they might enjoy competing in motorsport, then has to go out to buy £1,000+ worth of fireproofs/gloves etc., then (depending on series regulations) purchasing further £'00s of FIA-approved belts, fire supression etc etc. it can be daunting to say the least, perhaps even off-putting to some.
Everyone going in to motorsport knows 'Motorsport is Dangerous', people accept these risks and adhere to the regulations, however everyone is different and perceptions to levels of risk change from person to person. I would be happy to go out in a circuit race in a closed car wearing comfortable clothing, a helmet and gloves, i'd forgo the whole HANS/fireproof overalls if we were allowed the free choice, though appreciate this view is in the minority and somewhat antiquated - i'd also bring car racing back to Dundrod and restart the Targa Florio so probably for the best that i'm not in a position of power
That's what the StreetCar initiative that MSUK launched is all about. Events that you can do in your road car without having to commit to all the gear and modifications to your car.Everyone going in to motorsport knows 'Motorsport is Dangerous', people accept these risks and adhere to the regulations, however everyone is different and perceptions to levels of risk change from person to person. I would be happy to go out in a circuit race in a closed car wearing comfortable clothing, a helmet and gloves, i'd forgo the whole HANS/fireproof overalls if we were allowed the free choice, though appreciate this view is in the minority and somewhat antiquated - i'd also bring car racing back to Dundrod and restart the Targa Florio so probably for the best that i'm not in a position of power
[quote=freedman]
No circuit racing (or Hillclimb/Sprint) though.../quote]
The hillclimb/Sprint regs in the Blue Book now allow for 'standard cars' where you can enter with only a suitable helmet and fire proof gloves.
(But it is down to each meeting to declare their own minimum standards of racewear and class structures)
Plus, of course, speed events don't need the expensive tests to get a suitable licence to enter. (and many are of the opinion that even having to buy a MotorsportUK licence is too much red tape if you only do a few events).
No circuit racing (or Hillclimb/Sprint) though.../quote]
The hillclimb/Sprint regs in the Blue Book now allow for 'standard cars' where you can enter with only a suitable helmet and fire proof gloves.
(But it is down to each meeting to declare their own minimum standards of racewear and class structures)
Plus, of course, speed events don't need the expensive tests to get a suitable licence to enter. (and many are of the opinion that even having to buy a MotorsportUK licence is too much red tape if you only do a few events).
freedman said:
No circuit racing (or Hillclimb/Sprint) though
Only Autotest, Rally and Trials
Yes but would you really want to do a circuit race with no roll cage etc?Only Autotest, Rally and Trials
Doesn't matter how good a driver you are your safety (and life if you want to take it the extreme conclusion) is in the hands of the lowest common denominator on track.
It gives you a good idea of what is involved in a competitive event and whether it's something you would actually like and/or be good at. That way spending the money to go circuit racing safely doesn't seem so much of a risk.
GlobalRacer said:
Yes but would you really want to do a circuit race with no roll cage etc?
Doesn't matter how good a driver you are your safety (and life if you want to take it the extreme conclusion) is in the hands of the lowest common denominator on track.
It gives you a good idea of what is involved in a competitive event and whether it's something you would actually like and/or be good at. That way spending the money to go circuit racing safely doesn't seem so much of a risk.
I didn't suggest I would, but you used it as an example when responding to Chucky who said he would be more than happy toDoesn't matter how good a driver you are your safety (and life if you want to take it the extreme conclusion) is in the hands of the lowest common denominator on track.
It gives you a good idea of what is involved in a competitive event and whether it's something you would actually like and/or be good at. That way spending the money to go circuit racing safely doesn't seem so much of a risk.
I started sprinting, but my roadgoing 964 still had a cage and FIA in date belts and I had the then mandated suit, gloves and helmet
Of course, now its Hans boots and full everything on our circuit race car
Re Hans, it snot something Id ever considered whilst doing trackdays for years, or even when I did some sprinting
I was then a passenger in a car when we crashed at Spa (Radillon),fortunately only glancing the barriers, on my side. That incident made me completely re appraise things!
afewbeers said:
I have been a club racer in some form for around 40 years if you include karts. I now race in a series with the CSCC, a good club.
I now have the time to race, which was often a challenge at other times. Budget restrictions have generally been a constant.
Why on earth should I be restricted to 6 races a year? And no Spa which I did earlier this year.
I have increasingly less time for MSuk; I have never felt in 40 years that they are genuinely interested in supporting or understanding many forms of motorsport- sure they make all the right noises but it just looks from the outside like a self serving private club committed to ensure that the path to high level motorsport is alive and well for minted parents to invest from an early age.
Despite reams of guff about inclusivity, opportunity and respect this type of intervention from MSuk flies directly in the face of that.
Which proves my point that my perception is probably correct and MSuk really has little genuine interest in supporting a broad church and wide range of activities.
In the spirit of competition, I do wish there was an alternative to motorsport without MSuk. Perhaps things would be a little less cosy.
I reserve the right to be completely wrong with my assumptions.
All that CSCC (and others) need to do is run Championships not series. From what I can see, I suspect CSCC is one of the reason for the tightening of the rules.I now have the time to race, which was often a challenge at other times. Budget restrictions have generally been a constant.
Why on earth should I be restricted to 6 races a year? And no Spa which I did earlier this year.
I have increasingly less time for MSuk; I have never felt in 40 years that they are genuinely interested in supporting or understanding many forms of motorsport- sure they make all the right noises but it just looks from the outside like a self serving private club committed to ensure that the path to high level motorsport is alive and well for minted parents to invest from an early age.
Despite reams of guff about inclusivity, opportunity and respect this type of intervention from MSuk flies directly in the face of that.
Which proves my point that my perception is probably correct and MSuk really has little genuine interest in supporting a broad church and wide range of activities.
In the spirit of competition, I do wish there was an alternative to motorsport without MSuk. Perhaps things would be a little less cosy.
I reserve the right to be completely wrong with my assumptions.
Series where set up to allow new "series" to start and allow them to see if they worked.
Chunkychucky said:
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Having watched a few of DannyDc2 vids in Japan, where it would appear you can race in your t-shirt and shorts, in cars without a roll cage and time on track days you have to wonder whether the MSUK ever challenge the insurers in the UK and push back on some quite fanciful requirements.
I must confess to not having seen those videos, but it's a good way of making motorsport more accessible for people - if someone thinks they might enjoy competing in motorsport, then has to go out to buy £1,000+ worth of fireproofs/gloves etc., then (depending on series regulations) purchasing further £'00s of FIA-approved belts, fire supression etc etc. it can be daunting to say the least, perhaps even off-putting to some. Everyone going in to motorsport knows 'Motorsport is Dangerous', people accept these risks and adhere to the regulations, however everyone is different and perceptions to levels of risk change from person to person. I would be happy to go out in a circuit race in a closed car wearing comfortable clothing, a helmet and gloves, i'd forgo the whole HANS/fireproof overalls if we were allowed the free choice, though appreciate this view is in the minority and somewhat antiquated - i'd also bring car racing back to Dundrod and restart the Targa Florio so probably for the best that i'm not in a position of power
It’d be a bit like running a super mini race at Blyton without the MSUK being involved. It might be worth a try.
Link to the other thread, only one post but the OP races in CSCC and it shows the impact this could have
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
freedman said:
Link to the other thread, only one post but the OP races in CSCC and it shows the impact this could have
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Then they change to running championships, not that difficult.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
GlobalRacer said:
Which have much higher MSUK fees which would mean higher entry fees for drivers.
Then they stay as a series and run 5 races with no oversea meetings. (without a point system or awards.) The choice is theirs. The last time I looked the fees to register a series is £30 and either £200 or £665 for a championship.CSCC lay out the reasons why it's more expensive on multiple levels.
https://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/post/action...
https://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/post/action...
I raced in karts, then cars then karts again where IKR has become quite a thing 'independent kart races'. It was great, well organised kart meetings at good circuits, generally run by enthusiasts outside of MSUKs meddling and nonsense.
One of the main reasons I stopped car racing was that I just wanted to race, for fun, without huge expense and jobsworth like MSUK trying to make it as difficult and expensive as possible. That's not to say motorsport should be a free for all, but they just seem to have zero understanding of what competitors want from club events whether it's rallying, cars or karts
One of the main reasons I stopped car racing was that I just wanted to race, for fun, without huge expense and jobsworth like MSUK trying to make it as difficult and expensive as possible. That's not to say motorsport should be a free for all, but they just seem to have zero understanding of what competitors want from club events whether it's rallying, cars or karts
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