Racing to rallying

[ChevronB19]

I grew up in a rallying family. My dad, my mum, and my uncle.

Dad got sick of having to mend damage after each rally, and moved to historic single seaters. Since then, I ‘grew up’, and with dad have done single seaters, sports cars and saloons (all historic).

However we have been priced out of any form of ‘competitiveness’, and am thinking of moving to rallying, preferably post historic stage rallying (yes, I know that means more maintenance/damage etc).

Unlike racing, I’d only be competing against the clock, I’m not fussed about being beaten, it just seems like more fun. Albeit colder and muddier.

Thinking about something like a Peugeot 206 fully prepped for 12k. Loads of mates who can provide stage support, also an ex pro navigator.

I’m fully aware it is a totally different discipline (I can’t left foot brake for the life of me), and also that I know I would be slower compared to other competitors than I was in racing. I just want fun with a small element of competitiveness. Budget per annum on top of car would be about 5k (stretchable to 8 if need be). I’ve done one forest rally in an Austin A40, and loved it, but again was hugely aware about different skills etc. The fact I live in Cumbria helps, so loads of events without having to do 12 hour trips to southern race circuits as I do now.

Total naivety etc., but so many people I knew in the 80’s moved from rallying to racing, now loads seem to be going back due to race costs? I would do a full rally school first, plus skid pan.

I have an international race licence, but would have to get a rally licence.

So in essence, has anyone changed disciplines, and how did you find it?

[CKY]

Unfortunately this is something I have no experience of but have considered previously, a capable co-driver being the obvious barrier to entry for me.

Rallying an Austin A40, now that sounds interesting.. Which organisation/club organises those sorts of classic events?

Things like A40s/Minors can still be had cheaply, though as you say if you're not racing the clock but other competitors, can imagine build costs for the car could escalate considerably!

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

interesting rationale to change codes.

Priced out of competitiveness in racing, but happy to cock about at the back in a rally?
FWIW I think the depth of talent in club rallying is laughably thin. Sure the front runners are good, but there are too many drivers who just 'want to get round' you only have to look at the lower orders trying to do a hand brake turn. Jesus wept. And then these very drivers that are incapable of a' correctly timed pull of the wand of plenty', spend £5000 on a new engine to go 2 secs a stage quicker, and still losing 10 secs per hairpin shunting it back and forth ad nauseum.

So on that basis, a bit of tuition should see you further up the leader board than you might expect.
Not sure it's cheaper than racing though, tarmac rallying might be, but there's the challenge of finding a co driver whose happy to pay half.

On that basis have you not considered enduro racing and sharing costs with another driver?

[mattnoss]

Watching with interest as I went to the Dukeries Rally at Donington yesterday and it really looked fun, predominately tarmac but with a bit of gravel too (they used parts of the infield). It looked a lot more ‘clubbie’ than the racing I’ve done over the last few years, certainly no artics and surprisingly very few motor homes as well. I’m sure there’s plenty of money being spent still but it does look like you can just turn up with a car on a trailer and be competitive in most classes.

[ChevronB19]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

interesting rationale to change codes.

Priced out of competitiveness in racing, but happy to cock about at the back in a rally?
FWIW I think the depth of talent in club rallying is laughably thin. Sure the front runners are good, but there are too many drivers who just 'want to get round' you only have to look at the lower orders trying to do a hand brake turn. Jesus wept. And then these very drivers that are incapable of a' correctly timed pull of the wand of plenty', spend £5000 on a new engine to go 2 secs a stage quicker, and still losing 10 secs per hairpin shunting it back and forth ad nauseum.

So on that basis, a bit of tuition should see you further up the leader board than you might expect.
Not sure it's cheaper than racing though, tarmac rallying might be, but there's the challenge of finding a co driver whose happy to pay half.

On that basis have you not considered enduro racing and sharing costs with another driver?

All fair points. I am priced out, yes, but I’m moving to more ‘having fun’ (as opposed to just cocking about lol) and just competing against the clock, and hey, I fancy a change, it’s an itch to scratch! I’d definitely start with tarmac, even just local club auto tests as a starter (friend has a Ka I can borrow). The first few would be a ‘get round’ effort, yes, before I started to push it. As an ex (race) instructor myself, I totally agree that the secret is tuition, especially for a novice to rallying like me!

The one rally I did in the A40 (very very lightly prepared) I was slowest on all the gravel stages, fastest on the one tarmac stage, which shows where my experience lies I have no expectations of myself, just want to try I guess.

I do have a co-driver (ex pro) who is interested in coming out of retirement in a very gentle manner (he is 75 after all), only costs I would ask for would be a contribution to entry fees.

I did look at, and know, a few people who do C1 enduro racing, but it’s not for me.

Edited by ChevronB19 on Tuesday 5th December 09:21

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

ChevronB19 said:

All fair points. I am priced out, yes, but I’m moving to more ‘having fun’ and just competing against the clock, and hey, I fancy a change, it’s an itch to scratch! I’d definitely start with tarmac, even just local club auto tests as a starter (friend has a Ka I can borrow). The first few would be a ‘get round’ effort before I started to push it. As an ex (race) instructor myself, I totally agree that the secret is tuition, especially for a novice to rallying like me!

The one rally I did in the A40 (very very lightly prepared) I was slowest on all the gravel stages, fastest on the one tarmac stage, which shows where my experience lies I have no expectations of myself, just want to try I guess.

I do have a co-driver (ex pro) who is interested in coming out of retirement in a very gentle manner (he is 75 after all), only costs I would ask for would be a contribution to entry fees.

I did look at, and know, a few people who do C1 enduro racing, but it’s not for me.

C1 racing isn't for anyone. You can walk faster.

75 year old ex pro nav - from the Lakes/Lancashire area? Sounds like Ian Grindrod, if so.... you would be deifnately in good hands.

[ChevronB19]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

C1 racing isn't for anyone. You can walk faster.

75 year old ex pro nav - from the Lakes/Lancashire area? Sounds like Ian Grindrod, if so.... you would be deifnately in good hands.

Nope, not IG! Not giving any more clues!

[andy97]

I have tried combining a bit of racing (CSCC Mag 7s) with a bit of rallying for the past 4/5 seasons. I usually do about 4 or 5 events in each discipline.
I intended to try that for a year and then make my mind up which discipline I prefer, but I actually still enjoy both. I don’t pretend to be massively competitive but dicing in Mag7s is great but then I really enjoy the car control challenge and the team work of the rallies. The entry fees to the circuit rallies are usually cheaper too, for roughly the same amount of “track time” in a day, and sometimes the Co-driver will contribute.
I have mostly done the “circuit rallies” ( and no I am not going to get in to a discussion of whether it is “proper rallying” or not!) and I think that they are a great intro to rallying and an ideal transition from racing to rallying. Don’t underestimate how odd it feels to be going round bits of circuits the “wrong way round” though.
Most of the circuit rallies do try to include some different areas of the real estate, using pit lanes and access roads / car park areas as well as the circuit. Most also use some gravel areas on infield sections and Oulton has a water splash. And, being through the winter it can guaranteed to be slippery at most events.
There are a number of (sometimes unfathomable) differences in rallying requirements and the way rallies are run compared to racing (apart from the obvious) but you just have to get on with it. For eg:
- Most ralllies are run by small clubs so there are few big clubs like BRSCC, HSCC, CSCC, BARC etc involved and this means that often there are detail differences between the way two ostensibly similar rallies are run because they are being run by different clubs within the same championship.
- No medical required in rallying
- Not allowed to refuel in the service area (or in a pit garage) at a rally even though we do in racing all the time.
- Trailers have to be moved to trailer parks, even at circuit rallies where there is usually acres of space
- Rallying has a “libre” approach, hence engine swaps are common, and that’s why there are plenty of Escorts about with Millington/ Duratec/ Vauxhall engines and sequential gearboxes, and you will find your self in the same class as them based on capacity alone.
- Cars have to be log booked to be able to take part in rallies
There are others but they are in weeds.
I am not sure how long I will keep this up, or whether I will try to move on a bit. I did a single venue rally at Abingdon earlier in the year (as part of the Heart of England rally championship) and will probably try a few more of those. I would also like to do a tarmac closed road rally at some point. I won’t be going in to the forests!!
I was fortunate to buy a cheap Escort from Ireland about 7 years ago but it if I was starting out now I would look to rally either a Mk3 MX5 (handle very well, Duratec engines, loads of spares and performance parts around, competitive in their class - Paul Sheard is the man to talk to about these) or a BMW Mini R53 (same as above but there’s a one-make rally challenge for these run by John Goff, largely in the N/ NW and midlands events and they are also very competitive in the dedicated class for modern forced induction cars <1600cc within the AWMMC Heart of England Chamionship.
Of course there are pukka historic championships but these tend to be dominated by very expensively prepared Escorts with Sunbeams and Fiat 131s etc also about. Proper historic rallying is very expensive as the car has to be to homologated spec. If you did want to go in to historic rallying then I would probably look at a Peugeot 205 or a Vx Nova. Historic rallying stops at 1988 (I think, happy to be corrected).
The Heart of England Championship has a class for “club classic” cars which is for pre 1988 2wd cars that are not to homolgated spec but the cars have to have OEM engines for the type of car, h-pattern boxes and non remote adjustable dampers. This is where I run my Pinto engined Escort, and I sponsor this class so a bit biased!
If there are any specific questions please ask away or DM me. I am still learning having only done about 14/15 rallies but I may be able to pass on some info that helps.
Oh, and Donington this last Sunday in the snow and slush and fog was extremely challenging but great fun (but I was glad I booked a pit garage!)
I thoroughly recommend it.

Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 5th December 10:10

Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 5th December 10:13

[flatlandsman]

Circuit rallies have sadly taken over from a lot of the smaller single venue stuff, maybe as many of them struggle to hold the events these days for all sorts of reasons, I know that one I went to a few years ago near Kettering is stopping now too, I guess the costs to run it and insurance etc is a big factor. Very sad, but also they become hard to run, it is impossible to stop people getting in and they can cause issues, plus the entries are never that huge, maybe 50 or 60 cars.

They are proper rallies, ones you need a RALLY CAR for not a track day car as circuits rallies can be done in rough stages, where you need proper suspension, there is often far more of a challenge on an old airfield than there ever will be on a circuit.

You cannot argue with the facilities, it is better if you want friends and sponsors to come along, they get more spectators and you get about the same mileage. But proper rallying for me it is not, it is a sort of rally sprint if you like.

But MSV have seen what is going on and realised you can make a bunch of cash off season and they will make the stages tricky enough and damaging enough if you do go on Palmers grass it will likely damage your car. They are popular so fair play to them

They cater to a market, and that market has come about because of the demise in many areas of single venue rallies sadly. and the two things are very different in my eyes.

[LuckyThirteen]

sounds like rallycross could be due a big comeback

TBF, I'm in!

[flatlandsman]

Rallycross ought to be really benefitting from the rallying woes, but sadly at numerous levels it has been very badly managed, There are two separate series when there really ought to be only one,t hat was a fallout dating back a long time which was never repaired and the two series just went their own ways,which is sad. there is a lack of circuits centrally which really hampers numbers, you are wither in Wales, Ireland or Dover pretty much! And two of those rallying is very healthy, the South really needs to get behind Lydden, Pat and the team have done a lot of work making improvemnets, but they do not necessarily get the numbers.

Interestingly there are a fair of UK domiciled Eastern European drovers who have taken part, mainly at Lydden, perhaps due to being so close tot he track, but you do not see may on others forms of racing.

[andy97]

flatlandsman said:

Circuit rallies have sadly taken over from a lot of the smaller single venue stuff, maybe as many of them struggle to hold the events these days for all sorts of reasons, I know that one I went to a few years ago near Kettering is stopping now too, I guess the costs to run it and insurance etc is a big factor. Very sad, but also they become hard to run, it is impossible to stop people getting in and they can cause issues, plus the entries are never that huge, maybe 50 or 60 cars.

They are proper rallies, ones you need a RALLY CAR for not a track day car as circuits rallies can be done in rough stages, where you need proper suspension, there is often far more of a challenge on an old airfield than there ever will be on a circuit.

You cannot argue with the facilities, it is better if you want friends and sponsors to come along, they get more spectators and you get about the same mileage. But proper rallying for me it is not, it is a sort of rally sprint if you like.

But MSV have seen what is going on and realised you can make a bunch of cash off season and they will make the stages tricky enough and damaging enough if you do go on Palmers grass it will likely damage your car. They are popular so fair play to them

They cater to a market, and that market has come about because of the demise in many areas of single venue rallies sadly. and the two things are very different in my eyes.

Yes, all those R5s are track day cars, as are the “modern spec Escorts”, Darrians etc. And for info, 22 of the cars entered were in the Heart of England championship - this is the only round they do that is on a circuit and the other rallies are all S/V rallies at airfields and places like Weston Park and Epynt so hardly “track day players”.
I genuinely do not think there was a single car at Donington on Sunday that I would describe as a “track day” car, and parts of the gravel sections were pretty rough. Each to their own.

[flatlandsman]

You know what I mean though

I watched at a fair few circuit events a few years back and most of the cars were running a very ultra asphalt spec that you would not run on a normal say Melbourne, Fulbeck, old airfield single venue, that was my point.

I am not being massively critical, merely pointing out that these events serve a purpose for fans venues and some drivers, they are relatively easy on cars, easy to watch and the venues get off season revenue.

But I know a few rally drivers who have tried them, some are OK with them, but a few also call them sort of tarmac sprint events, and not "real" rallying. I think MSV have improved them actually by including some more gravel and loose section, but Snetterton for instance is pretty much all circuit, you could, easily do that in basically a prepped track day car, you might not be that quick, but you could do it, I know a bloke that did!

[andy97]

flatlandsman said:

You know what I mean though

I watched at a fair few circuit events a few years back and most of the cars were running a very ultra asphalt spec that you would not run on a normal say Melbourne, Fulbeck, old airfield single venue, that was my point.

I am not being massively critical, merely pointing out that these events serve a purpose for fans venues and some drivers, they are relatively easy on cars, easy to watch and the venues get off season revenue.

But I know a few rally drivers who have tried them, some are OK with them, but a few also call them sort of tarmac sprint events, and not "real" rallying. I think MSV have improved them actually by including some more gravel and loose section, but Snetterton for instance is pretty much all circuit, you could, easily do that in basically a prepped track day car, you might not be that quick, but you could do it, I know a bloke that did!

Rallying has always involved different elements to the discipline and “real rallying” can be anything from forests, airfields, closed roads and circuits. We used circuits back in the days of the Lombard RAC and cars will always have to be optimised for the environment that they are predominantly operating in.
Oh, and Snetterton has used a decent section of gravel for all of the last few years that I have been doing it. And that is actually not that easy when you are in a car optimised for the smooth tarmac and on tarmac tyres!
The point of this thread, though, is to answer the question whether anyone has changed from racing to rallying and what the experiences are. I have tried to do that and I do recommend the circuit rallies as a way for circuit racers to learn about rallying before deciding whether to continue in that area or move on to other aspects of the sport. I thoroughly recommend it as a starting point (and as an enjoyable day out in its own right) for circuit racers, novices and track dayers alike, and it should be encouraged as the more people that participate the better.

[BEP]

I actually moved from rallying to circuit racing in 2021 after 25 yrs…club level racing (mighty minis in my case), was significantly cheaper to be competitive than club level rallying.

I know we all say we’re out for our own enjoyment but the bug soon bites and the arms race in rallying now from tyres, to engines, clicky boxes etc is insane.

Fancied driving on rallies again this year and did rally north Wales in my historic 309…nowhere near competitive but still cost about £2500 all in !!

I’m now back to codriving as it’s at a level I can afford.

Honestly I’d look long and hard at what you want to do and in what, it can get out of hand very quickly as the one make / parity formulas just aren’t widespread in rallying anymore.