Track limits optional?
Discussion
I was a bit surprised when I watched the British GT Championship rounds at Snetterton and Donington at the total disregard for the new MSUK rules; have I missed something or is it optional for different series - I got the impression from the MSUK email and our club letter that it was mandatory now?
Thanks, yes just saw that the Donington race was at the end of May (watched it later in June) - no wonder they brought the rule change in, some of the lines were just a piss take. Snetterton race was in June and even there the cars were all over the place most of the time, most were probably exceeding limits 3 or 4 times a lap.
I see it all the time, at all sorts of venues all over the world, as said when it came out there needs to be a worldwide mandate for this, not certain places enforcing, some harshly, some not, it is no wonder people make mistakes.
It is very simple in reality. The edge of the track is the white line. all that needs enforcing is how far you can cross that line if at all.
if you touch it, penalty
And be careful with this guy, he works for clubs you know, means he knows anything and everything and will argue the toss til he is blue in the face, then turn threads into boredam when people cant be arsed anymore.
It is very simple in reality. The edge of the track is the white line. all that needs enforcing is how far you can cross that line if at all.
if you touch it, penalty
And be careful with this guy, he works for clubs you know, means he knows anything and everything and will argue the toss til he is blue in the face, then turn threads into boredam when people cant be arsed anymore.
LukeBrown66 said:
It is very simple in reality. The edge of the track is the white line. all that needs enforcing is how far you can cross that line if at all.
Except it's far from simple in reality which is a big part of the new changes. It's easier, but still far from simple with a line of cars, to see the outside rather than inside of a tyre and there aren't enough observers to be able to cover every corner so they choose the most likely ones.GlobalRacer said:
Except it's far from simple in reality which is a big part of the new changes. It's easier, but still far from simple with a line of cars, to see the outside rather than inside of a tyre and there aren't enough observers to be able to cover every corner so they choose the most likely ones.
There are also corners where the marshals posts are at such a location they are unable to clearly see the edge of the track.But hey, what do I know about it. I only attend meetings and stand at marshals posts. Far better to have somebody who hardly ever goes to events. Freely admits he doesn't care about how events are organised yet somehow, his opinion is the one that counts.
Hondashark said:
Itll always be the same, enforced rigorously at club level and half a blind eye at upper levels.
Well that's the feeling I got when I saw it - Brands Indy was our first race under the new regs and pretty much everyone that I saw was fairly good, other than the white line on the right approaching Graham Hill where a lot of drivers were going back to old habits. My view is that it should be consistently enforced. The only grey area for me is where cars are side by side and in the interests of both parties being able to continue safely - that does not mean it's OK to leave the track to pass someone and no advantage should be gained.
There are probably only around 70 corners in total on the popular UK tracks so it's not a massive investment for MSUK to assist track owners with the costs of photo systems then it's a simple process to tot them up at the end of the race, hand out the penalties and disqualifications etc. Losing podiums is a surefire way to improve your skills. Anybody regularly still speeding in the pitlanes:-)
Track limit penalties are applied during a race not after. Where are the personnel to do all this checking coming from? Clubs are struggling to get enough people to run meetings as it is without needing additional people to plough through loads of photos, write up penalties, amend grids etc all before the next 15 minute race finishes.
Photo systems are not as easy as you seem to think. Excavation work is required to fit the sensors, not every corner has a suitable place to mount a camera where the wheels can clearly be seen and a host of other issues. Not having sensors and having people watch an "always on" feed comes back to the personnel problem again.
In my experience so far under the new rules (which are only a very slight change from the old ones don't forget) at club level there is no problem. At the end of the day it's up to competitors to play fairly. I can think of a myriad of rules that aren't checked consistently but the vast majority don't break them as it's cheating just as going over track limits on purpose is.
Photo systems are not as easy as you seem to think. Excavation work is required to fit the sensors, not every corner has a suitable place to mount a camera where the wheels can clearly be seen and a host of other issues. Not having sensors and having people watch an "always on" feed comes back to the personnel problem again.
In my experience so far under the new rules (which are only a very slight change from the old ones don't forget) at club level there is no problem. At the end of the day it's up to competitors to play fairly. I can think of a myriad of rules that aren't checked consistently but the vast majority don't break them as it's cheating just as going over track limits on purpose is.
See what I mean, I am there, so I know That doesn't matter and you are missing the point. This is a worldwide problem, and you doing your bit for a club is great we all clap, bravo, I don't care about tat, I care about the inconsistency. Everywhere, not just here.
Enforcement is sketchy, drivers will ALWAYS push the boundaries, so you are either ruthless with them, or you let them get away with murder.
If you are ruthless, they will eventually learn. They will b
h, man leave series, etc who cares the end game is better safety and rule adherence.
But can you not see the stupidity of letting it be OK on some corners and not others, drivers do not think like that, and then you have the stuff like happened in MotoGP last week when a rider makes a mistake, pulls over, lets a guy by and is STILL penalized as he did not slow by enough of a time margin. He did ENOUGH, but in the rules he did not, it is a joke.
You either go too far or you do not, it is a fine line.
But for me, it should be draconian EVERYWHERE, it should be taught in racing schools, on ARDS (not sure if it is) it is a vital part of your training and should be taught.
Some of this is from gaming aswell remember, even games have track limits enforced, in fact it is possible where some the tech comes from to stop it!
Enforcement is sketchy, drivers will ALWAYS push the boundaries, so you are either ruthless with them, or you let them get away with murder.
If you are ruthless, they will eventually learn. They will b
h, man leave series, etc who cares the end game is better safety and rule adherence. But can you not see the stupidity of letting it be OK on some corners and not others, drivers do not think like that, and then you have the stuff like happened in MotoGP last week when a rider makes a mistake, pulls over, lets a guy by and is STILL penalized as he did not slow by enough of a time margin. He did ENOUGH, but in the rules he did not, it is a joke.
You either go too far or you do not, it is a fine line.
But for me, it should be draconian EVERYWHERE, it should be taught in racing schools, on ARDS (not sure if it is) it is a vital part of your training and should be taught.
Some of this is from gaming aswell remember, even games have track limits enforced, in fact it is possible where some the tech comes from to stop it!
GlobalRacer said:
Track limit penalties are applied during a race not after. Where are the personnel to do all this checking coming from? Clubs are struggling to get enough people to run meetings as it is without needing additional people to plough through loads of photos, write up penalties, amend grids etc all before the next 15 minute race finishes.
So, a governing body implements a regulatory rule change, without making sure the infrastructure or 'man power' are in place to make sure their changed rules are correctly implemented and enforced? Scandal 
just serves to make the MSA seem even more out of touch from the majority of club competitors than they really are, shame as I can't see it enticing new competitors on to grids. No idea if it works in national series on other continents, but it does seem a bit of a joke at the moment - as mentioned previously countless times, in better days things like this were a non-event; go outside of track limits, you ended up on grass which ultimately isn't as quick as keeping your tyres on the 'black stuff'.
bumskins said:
So, a governing body implements a regulatory rule change, without making sure the infrastructure or 'man power' are in place to make sure their changed rules are correctly implemented and enforced? Scandal just serves to make the MSA seem even more out of touch from the majority of club competitors than they really are, shame as I can't see it enticing new competitors on to grids.
No idea if it works in national series on other continents, but it does seem a bit of a joke at the moment - as mentioned previously countless times, in better days things like this were a non-event; go outside of track limits, you ended up on grass which ultimately isn't as quick as keeping your tyres on the 'black stuff'.
People seem to think there has been a massive rule change or something. It's literally a matter of a few inches and makes the rules that we've had in place in the UK for years easier to police. I don't recall so much gnashing of teeth over all the previous years. just serves to make the MSA seem even more out of touch from the majority of club competitors than they really are, shame as I can't see it enticing new competitors on to grids. No idea if it works in national series on other continents, but it does seem a bit of a joke at the moment - as mentioned previously countless times, in better days things like this were a non-event; go outside of track limits, you ended up on grass which ultimately isn't as quick as keeping your tyres on the 'black stuff'.
Literally all that has changed is the limit has moved from the inside of the tyre to the outside of the tyre.
Going on the grass can be far, far faster than being on the black stuff depending on where the grass is. I can think of many corners where that is the case.
GlobalRacer said:
Going on the grass can be far, far faster than being on the black stuff depending on where the grass is. I can think of many corners where that is the case.
Perhaps, however in the instance of corners i've seen being flagged for track limits then it's predominantly on the exit of corners, i.e. traction zones (Brands Hatch's Graham Hill Bend, Red Bull Ring's Turn 9/10), and in my experience grass isn't a lot of use there compared to tarmac or even painted kerbs or aprons. Chunkychucky said:
GlobalRacer said:
Going on the grass can be far, far faster than being on the black stuff depending on where the grass is. I can think of many corners where that is the case.
Perhaps, however in the instance of corners i've seen being flagged for track limits then it's predominantly on the exit of corners, i.e. traction zones (Brands Hatch's Graham Hill Bend, Red Bull Ring's Turn 9/10), and in my experience grass isn't a lot of use there compared to tarmac or even painted kerbs or aprons. Graham Hill Bend is a perfect example or this
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