Racing Dampers, why are they so bad?
Discussion
Just a bit of a gripe really.
Most of us spend thousands on dampers for race cars in order to find an edge and yet the quality of nearly all dampers is really poor. And by quality I mean their longevity. A standard road damper will do 100k miles, but a race one, you maybe get 1 season out of it, so perhaps 500 miles, before it's popped a seal of some sort and leaking oil, or the strut is bent.
I'd maintain that a race track, being smooth, takes less out of a damper than an ordinary UK road, bar maybe riding over the kerbs, but as that is what the racing damper is built for, I can't believe that it can't last significantly longer.
I guess the quality of the components is deliberately poor so that rebuilds and the revenue earned from them is common place.
So why couldn't you rebuild an AST damper, with the more durable components from a road going sachs unit ( assuming they fit)? If it'd last me 10x as long, I'll pay 3x the price, but suspect I wouldn't have to.
what am I missing?
Most of us spend thousands on dampers for race cars in order to find an edge and yet the quality of nearly all dampers is really poor. And by quality I mean their longevity. A standard road damper will do 100k miles, but a race one, you maybe get 1 season out of it, so perhaps 500 miles, before it's popped a seal of some sort and leaking oil, or the strut is bent.
I'd maintain that a race track, being smooth, takes less out of a damper than an ordinary UK road, bar maybe riding over the kerbs, but as that is what the racing damper is built for, I can't believe that it can't last significantly longer.
I guess the quality of the components is deliberately poor so that rebuilds and the revenue earned from them is common place.
So why couldn't you rebuild an AST damper, with the more durable components from a road going sachs unit ( assuming they fit)? If it'd last me 10x as long, I'll pay 3x the price, but suspect I wouldn't have to.
what am I missing?
dibbers006 said:
Awful lot more load being applied through them though no?
don't think so, race tracks are smooth. But even if that is true, surely there is a seal that could be used that wouldn't fail with such limited mileage.You average road car is bouncing of cobbles, pot holes, cats eyes at decent speed every day, but you aren't changing them after 500 miles.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Just a bit of a gripe really.
Most of us spend thousands on dampers for race cars in order to find an edge and yet the quality of nearly all dampers is really poor. And by quality I mean their longevity. A standard road damper will do 100k miles, but a race one, you maybe get 1 season out of it, so perhaps 500 miles, before it's popped a seal of some sort and leaking oil, or the strut is bent.
I'd maintain that a race track, being smooth, takes less out of a damper than an ordinary UK road, bar maybe riding over the kerbs, but as that is what the racing damper is built for, I can't believe that it can't last significantly longer.
I guess the quality of the components is deliberately poor so that rebuilds and the revenue earned from them is common place.
So why couldn't you rebuild an AST damper, with the more durable components from a road going sachs unit ( assuming they fit)? If it'd last me 10x as long, I'll pay 3x the price, but suspect I wouldn't have to.
what am I missing?
Without specifying what your actual problem is.......it's ranting for nothing.Most of us spend thousands on dampers for race cars in order to find an edge and yet the quality of nearly all dampers is really poor. And by quality I mean their longevity. A standard road damper will do 100k miles, but a race one, you maybe get 1 season out of it, so perhaps 500 miles, before it's popped a seal of some sort and leaking oil, or the strut is bent.
I'd maintain that a race track, being smooth, takes less out of a damper than an ordinary UK road, bar maybe riding over the kerbs, but as that is what the racing damper is built for, I can't believe that it can't last significantly longer.
I guess the quality of the components is deliberately poor so that rebuilds and the revenue earned from them is common place.
So why couldn't you rebuild an AST damper, with the more durable components from a road going sachs unit ( assuming they fit)? If it'd last me 10x as long, I'll pay 3x the price, but suspect I wouldn't have to.
what am I missing?
So what is the actual alleged fault with your dampers ? Are they an expensive brand or Chinese ?
If the strut is bent, clearly either it is too weak for the application, or it has been subjected to abuse beyond what it was designed for.
What is your "race car" ? You say the quality of nearly all dampers are piss poor.....like you've tried nearly every single brand and design out there ? That's a lot of dampers.
stevieturbo said:
Without specifying what your actual problem is.......it's ranting for nothing.
So what is the actual alleged fault with your dampers ? Are they an expensive brand or Chinese ?
If the strut is bent, clearly either it is too weak for the application, or it has been subjected to abuse beyond what it was designed for.
What is your "race car" ? You say the quality of nearly all dampers are piss poor.....like you've tried nearly every single brand and design out there ? That's a lot of dampers.
I don’t have a current problem with my AST dampers, I have also had Koni , spax and Leda. My issue isn’t that there is a problem when they work or have been repaired, my issues is that considering they are performance dampers the quality of components is poor and therefore required rebuilding yearly. So what is the actual alleged fault with your dampers ? Are they an expensive brand or Chinese ?
If the strut is bent, clearly either it is too weak for the application, or it has been subjected to abuse beyond what it was designed for.
What is your "race car" ? You say the quality of nearly all dampers are piss poor.....like you've tried nearly every single brand and design out there ? That's a lot of dampers.
I don’t think that’s acceptable. When road dampers which cost maybe £100 can go 100k miles. Even factoring the fact that a race mile is 20x a road mile. It’s still not acceptable.
It’s Probably to save money. Are there some dampers out there that are really good quality and will last when used for motorsport. Or would it be possible to source better quality components and repair them your self
The car is a Pug 106.
I can’t think of a UK circuit that isn’t faster without heavy kerb use on at least a corner or two. Silverstone maybe? At vastly higher speeds and load than say, hitting a pothole on the road, that will surely transfer lots more load into the damper?
ETA: I’ve had Gaz’s on a 1390kg car, now Bilsteins on a 1250kg car, multiple seasons, no issues
ETA: I’ve had Gaz’s on a 1390kg car, now Bilsteins on a 1250kg car, multiple seasons, no issues
CanoeSniffer said:
I can’t think of a UK circuit that isn’t faster without heavy kerb use on at least a corner or two. Silverstone maybe? At vastly higher speeds and load than say, hitting a pothole on the road, that will surely transfer lots more load into the damper?
ETA: I’ve had Gaz’s on a 1390kg car, now Bilsteins on a 1250kg car, multiple seasons, no issues
it will yes, but it should be designed for it, and it's a couple of times a lap for 2x 15 mins, or maybe 30 miles, as opposed to 1x per 10 miles for 100000 miles.ETA: I’ve had Gaz’s on a 1390kg car, now Bilsteins on a 1250kg car, multiple seasons, no issues
If you ran a standard road damper on a track for an extended period of time, it'd be knackered way sooner than 100k
It's also important to consider what a damper is doing, and how that differs for a race application.
Put simply, a damper is a fluid filled tube, with a piston inside that has some holes in it to let fluid through it. Big holes and it's soft and easy to move. Small holes and it's firm and stiffer to move.
A fixed rate road car damper is a heavy steel assembly, with a non-adjustable insert that has "big holes" that is soft and squidgy. It's life is pretty easy in terms of loading and heat that is generated from it's operation, and undulations and the occasional pothole are well within it's tolerances. They are pretty much fit and forget.
In a race car, the units are much lighter and far more complicated, given all of the adjustments available and the adjustable spring platform coil over nature that most use. The also take an absolute beasting on the track or rally stage, with huge loads and interior heating thats experienced.
With their "small holes" and degrees of adjustment, they also have very intricate parts inside, compared to a road car unit.
They are similar in concept, however very different in terms of execution.
It's also important to consider what a damper is doing, and how that differs for a race application.
Put simply, a damper is a fluid filled tube, with a piston inside that has some holes in it to let fluid through it. Big holes and it's soft and easy to move. Small holes and it's firm and stiffer to move.
A fixed rate road car damper is a heavy steel assembly, with a non-adjustable insert that has "big holes" that is soft and squidgy. It's life is pretty easy in terms of loading and heat that is generated from it's operation, and undulations and the occasional pothole are well within it's tolerances. They are pretty much fit and forget.
In a race car, the units are much lighter and far more complicated, given all of the adjustments available and the adjustable spring platform coil over nature that most use. The also take an absolute beasting on the track or rally stage, with huge loads and interior heating thats experienced.
With their "small holes" and degrees of adjustment, they also have very intricate parts inside, compared to a road car unit.
They are similar in concept, however very different in terms of execution.
whp1983 said:
I can empathise a little mine are rebuilt/replaced each season sometimes sooner…..
But they do take a hammering…. So much more than road ones ever would- relentlessly hitting curbs, coming under load.
Little harsh to expect more from them?
A lot does depend on actual usage....but do they really need rebuilt every year ?....it could well be unreasonable if that was the case.But they do take a hammering…. So much more than road ones ever would- relentlessly hitting curbs, coming under load.
Little harsh to expect more from them?
But a few trackdays or smooth circuit races, vs say a few hard rally stages. I know what would be a lot worse on a car. Do they all get rebuilt so often ?
I just don't see it in most cases.
But he has not yet really went into any detail of failures etc
stevieturbo said:
But he has not yet really went into any detail of failures etc
the failures are just poor quality components giving up way too easily. It's seals and leaks in general, valving that no longer valves. Adjusters that spin freely, bearings that no longer bear. Things that might fatigue over time. When the damper is rebuilt, it works, however I think a race damper should last a whole lot longer than a season or two. And whilst they may be more complicated than your average road damper, the road damper doesn't sit there for 100k miles and do nothing. It too takes the odd shock from a pot hole or just bad road surface and I'd argue that over 10k miles its comparable to the shocks a race damper takes during a seasons competition.Leda essentially went bust because in the early days they built very good and reliable dampers, but then the consultants got involved and said they should use cheaper components, which meant they failed more easily. Let's bring back some old school quality I say.
edited to add - I've done countless trackdays in a road car, with road car suspension, including 4000 track miles in a 60k mile Twingo, and the suspension was very very good for a road car on a circuit, and dare I say it, near perfect in the wet. So these well worn 10 year old dampers took quite some abuse and are still going strong.
Edited by Dynion Araf Uchaf on Friday 1st July 08:31
Edited by Dynion Araf Uchaf on Friday 1st July 08:32
There are a huge number of factors involved here. Race cars, even production based, will be putting much higher loads through the damper. side loads as well as lengthwise loads. Sticky tyres, higher speeds, even compared to track days, and the afore mentioned kerbs. Also, road dampers do lose performance over time and have a failure rate, on average over millions of parts made, will not be seen by an average driver but do happen.
The next thing is weight. A road damper is built with heavy materials etc precisely to improve durability. For a race car, you want a light damper for overall weight, unsprung mass considerations and other dynamic considerations.
Then you have road car manufacturers spending millions even billions over the years on reliability testing. Even your top level damper companies (Penske, Ohlins etc) are completely focussed on performance and have miniscule budgets compared to Ford, VAG etc
Race car dampers have components like rose joints etc for geometry control versus elastomer based bushes of road cars. That puts a lot of high frequency low loads through the damper. Thats another driver of wear etc. Also the rest of the suspension has a lot less "give"
Ultimately, if you want road car reliability, you would need spend a huge amounts of money and probably wouldnt want the dampers anyway because they would not have the weight and performance you would expect.
The next thing is weight. A road damper is built with heavy materials etc precisely to improve durability. For a race car, you want a light damper for overall weight, unsprung mass considerations and other dynamic considerations.
Then you have road car manufacturers spending millions even billions over the years on reliability testing. Even your top level damper companies (Penske, Ohlins etc) are completely focussed on performance and have miniscule budgets compared to Ford, VAG etc
Race car dampers have components like rose joints etc for geometry control versus elastomer based bushes of road cars. That puts a lot of high frequency low loads through the damper. Thats another driver of wear etc. Also the rest of the suspension has a lot less "give"
Ultimately, if you want road car reliability, you would need spend a huge amounts of money and probably wouldnt want the dampers anyway because they would not have the weight and performance you would expect.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
the failures are just poor quality components giving up way too easily. It's seals and leaks in general, valving that no longer valves. Adjusters that spin freely, bearings that no longer bear. Things that might fatigue over time. When the damper is rebuilt, it works, however I think a race damper should last a whole lot longer than a season or two. And whilst they may be more complicated than your average road damper, the road damper doesn't sit there for 100k miles and do nothing. It too takes the odd shock from a pot hole or just bad road surface and I'd argue that over 10k miles its comparable to the shocks a race damper takes during a seasons competition.
Leda essentially went bust because in the early days they built very good and reliable dampers, but then the consultants got involved and said they should use cheaper components, which meant they failed more easily. Let's bring back some old school quality I say.
edited to add - I've done countless trackdays in a road car, with road car suspension, including 4000 track miles in a 60k mile Twingo, and the suspension was very very good for a road car on a circuit, and dare I say it, near perfect in the wet. So these well worn 10 year old dampers took quite some abuse and are still going strong.
If you are experiencing so many problems with all these different brands, what is the same common denominator with all those you've tried ?Leda essentially went bust because in the early days they built very good and reliable dampers, but then the consultants got involved and said they should use cheaper components, which meant they failed more easily. Let's bring back some old school quality I say.
edited to add - I've done countless trackdays in a road car, with road car suspension, including 4000 track miles in a 60k mile Twingo, and the suspension was very very good for a road car on a circuit, and dare I say it, near perfect in the wet. So these well worn 10 year old dampers took quite some abuse and are still going strong.
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