Where Have All The Racing Cars Gone?
Discussion
I have been attending race meetings at club level for 20+ years, predominantly run by HSCC, CTCRC or BARC. Over the years, it's disappointing to see so many of the cars I remember from years gone that have seemingly vanished from the face of the Earth. Obviously there will be some rate of attrition as older drivers retire from the sport/move on to new interests, but it's a shame not to see more cars continually campaigned in the hands of new owners. I particularly enjoy historic touring cars/historic saloon car racing, and I can probably count on 1 hand the number of cars competing with the HSCC that were running when I first started attending years ago - Mr Glaister of this Parish's Ford 100E being one such example.
I guess my question is, wtf happens to these competition cars? From experience they're not the greatest things to drive on our s
t excuse of a road network (potholes/speed humps, traffic jams etc.), so would have expected to see the same cars passing on to new owners and staying 'on track'. I tried (unsuccessfully) to buy such a car back in 2004/05 (Ivan Dutton's old Alvis Grey Lady), with the intention of competing in various events with it, however the winning bidder then proceeded to hide the car from the rest of the world... And this is just an example of a competition car I tried to buy, there are countless other examples from over the years - just have to watch recordings of the St Mary's Trophy @ Goodwood Revival from 1998-2010.
Granted it's probably something no one else gives a fk about, just something that has been piquing my curiosity more and more over the last decade 
I guess my question is, wtf happens to these competition cars? From experience they're not the greatest things to drive on our s
t excuse of a road network (potholes/speed humps, traffic jams etc.), so would have expected to see the same cars passing on to new owners and staying 'on track'. I tried (unsuccessfully) to buy such a car back in 2004/05 (Ivan Dutton's old Alvis Grey Lady), with the intention of competing in various events with it, however the winning bidder then proceeded to hide the car from the rest of the world... And this is just an example of a competition car I tried to buy, there are countless other examples from over the years - just have to watch recordings of the St Mary's Trophy @ Goodwood Revival from 1998-2010. Granted it's probably something no one else gives a f
k about, just something that has been piquing my curiosity more and more over the last decade I've been racing long enough to wonder where some folks from 20 years ago had got to. Occasionally they make an appearance a few years later when times are better, or the car (in my case) reappears years after being sold. For the most part though the car gets parked up for years on the off chance the owner wants to come back out racing again, or is broken for parts, as it's a mare trying to sell a racecar!
If my recent experience is anything to go by it could be something to do with the crazy values a lot of these cars are now fetching.
I campaigned an Evo V1 RS in sprints and hill climbs from 2009 until the end of last year. I was repeatedly informed of how much the value of this car had increased in recent years and in the end, I was made an offer I couldn't refuse. The buyer has no intention of using it for competition and has added it to his growing collection of cars that aren't even driven.
I campaigned an Evo V1 RS in sprints and hill climbs from 2009 until the end of last year. I was repeatedly informed of how much the value of this car had increased in recent years and in the end, I was made an offer I couldn't refuse. The buyer has no intention of using it for competition and has added it to his growing collection of cars that aren't even driven.
Trev450 said:
If my recent experience is anything to go by it could be something to do with the crazy values a lot of these cars are now fetching.
I campaigned an Evo V1 RS in sprints and hill climbs from 2009 until the end of last year. I was repeatedly informed of how much the value of this car had increased in recent years and in the end, I was made an offer I couldn't refuse. The buyer has no intention of using it for competition and has added it to his growing collection of cars that aren't even driven.
I did wonder if this, associated costs of parts, or even escalating entry costs/equipment costs had made a few competitors get sick and throw it in.. I campaigned an Evo V1 RS in sprints and hill climbs from 2009 until the end of last year. I was repeatedly informed of how much the value of this car had increased in recent years and in the end, I was made an offer I couldn't refuse. The buyer has no intention of using it for competition and has added it to his growing collection of cars that aren't even driven.
drmotorsport said:
I've been racing long enough to wonder where some folks from 20 years ago had got to. Occasionally they make an appearance a few years later when times are better, or the car (in my case) reappears years after being sold. For the most part though the car gets parked up for years on the off chance the owner wants to come back out racing again, or is broken for parts, as it's a mare trying to sell a racecar!
I agree they're not the easiest things to sell, often getting broken/split for parts to go and live on in other projects. Such a shame though, another guy I used to see race and who was a bloody good driver was called Chris Sanders, used to race a Lotus Cortina in HRSR but I believe stopped for health reasons.. Built an immaculate black Standard 10 saloon racer that I saw once at Coombe and once at Goodwood - it absolutely flew! 
Again though, car disappeared end of the season never to be seen again...Chunkychucky said:
Trev450 said:
If my recent experience is anything to go by it could be something to do with the crazy values a lot of these cars are now fetching.
I campaigned an Evo V1 RS in sprints and hill climbs from 2009 until the end of last year. I was repeatedly informed of how much the value of this car had increased in recent years and in the end, I was made an offer I couldn't refuse. The buyer has no intention of using it for competition and has added it to his growing collection of cars that aren't even driven.
I did wonder if this, associated costs of parts, or even escalating entry costs/equipment costs had made a few competitors get sick and throw it in.. I campaigned an Evo V1 RS in sprints and hill climbs from 2009 until the end of last year. I was repeatedly informed of how much the value of this car had increased in recent years and in the end, I was made an offer I couldn't refuse. The buyer has no intention of using it for competition and has added it to his growing collection of cars that aren't even driven.
Chunkychucky said:
I have been attending race meetings at club level for 20+ years, predominantly run by HSCC, CTCRC or BARC. Over the years, it's disappointing to see so many of the cars I remember from years gone that have seemingly vanished from the face of the Earth. Obviously there will be some rate of attrition as older drivers retire from the sport/move on to new interests, but it's a shame not to see more cars continually campaigned in the hands of new owners. I particularly enjoy historic touring cars/historic saloon car racing, and I can probably count on 1 hand the number of cars competing with the HSCC that were running when I first started attending years ago - Mr Glaister of this Parish's Ford 100E being one such example.
I guess my question is, wtf happens to these competition cars? From experience they're not the greatest things to drive on our st excuse of a road network (potholes/speed humps, traffic jams etc.), so would have expected to see the same cars passing on to new owners and staying 'on track'. I tried (unsuccessfully) to buy such a car back in 2004/05 (Ivan Dutton's old Alvis Grey Lady), with the intention of competing in various events with it, however the winning bidder then proceeded to hide the car from the rest of the world... And this is just an example of a competition car I tried to buy, there are countless other examples from over the years - just have to watch recordings of the St Mary's Trophy @ Goodwood Revival from 1998-2010.
Granted it's probably something no one else gives a fk about, just something that has been piquing my curiosity more and more over the last decade
Thanks for the shout out - dad’s car, but we both drive it, owned and competed in since 1971, it’s not going anywhere, and is in dad’s will to me and in my will to my daughter. Although to be fair, family reasons have caused us to take a 3 year break, but we’ll be out again later this season.I guess my question is, wtf happens to these competition cars? From experience they're not the greatest things to drive on our s
t excuse of a road network (potholes/speed humps, traffic jams etc.), so would have expected to see the same cars passing on to new owners and staying 'on track'. I tried (unsuccessfully) to buy such a car back in 2004/05 (Ivan Dutton's old Alvis Grey Lady), with the intention of competing in various events with it, however the winning bidder then proceeded to hide the car from the rest of the world... And this is just an example of a competition car I tried to buy, there are countless other examples from over the years - just have to watch recordings of the St Mary's Trophy @ Goodwood Revival from 1998-2010. Granted it's probably something no one else gives a f
k about, just something that has been piquing my curiosity more and more over the last decade Regarding the more ‘bread and butter’ cars, it’s often cost of repairs. A new wing for a 100e is £600 if you can find one. Although regarding HRSR you may be surprised, there’s quite a few cars that have been competing 30 years plus, just with colour changes etc. The ICS era of the 80’s wrecked a few as they tyres were too sticky, meaning stress fractures in the shell. Things have got a bit ‘rougher’ (sadly) recently with some shells being destroyed (bad incident at Oulton a couple of weekends ago utterly wrecked a Lotus Cortina.
As for road use, you’re right, ours is impossible (and in MHO dangerous) to drive on the road.
Single seaters and Sportscars are a different proposition - they tend to hide away in garages then get rebuilt, either by the same of different owner. There’s a lot of F2’s now back having previously been used as the basis for modsports cars.
The reason why the Grey Lady has disappeared is that it isn’t eligible for any series (including Goodwood) - it was an exercise in ‘how far can I push it’, glorious as it was - effectively a silhouette saloon.
ChevronB19 said:
Thanks for the shout out - dad’s car, but we both drive it, owned and competed in since 1971, it’s not going anywhere, and is in dad’s will to me and in my will to my daughter. Although to be fair, family reasons have caused us to take a 3 year break, but we’ll be out again later this season.
Regarding the more ‘bread and butter’ cars, it’s often cost of repairs. A new wing for a 100e is £600 if you can find one. Although regarding HRSR you may be surprised, there’s quite a few cars that have been competing 30 years plus, just with colour changes etc. The ICS era of the 80’s wrecked a few as they tyres were too sticky, meaning stress fractures in the shell. Things have got a bit ‘rougher’ (sadly) recently with some shells being destroyed (bad incident at Oulton a couple of weekends ago utterly wrecked a Lotus Cortina.
As for road use, you’re right, ours is impossible (and in MHO dangerous) to drive on the road.
Single seaters and Sportscars are a different proposition - they tend to hide away in garages then get rebuilt, either by the same of different owner. There’s a lot of F2’s now back having previously been used as the basis for modsports cars.
The reason why the Grey Lady has disappeared is that it isn’t eligible for any series (including Goodwood) - it was an exercise in ‘how far can I push it’, glorious as it was - effectively a silhouette saloon.
Yes I recall my father and I spoke to you/your father at Silverstone priobably 20-or-so years ago now, at the time I remember being fascinated with all the history of the car and marvelling at how great it was still being used in anger Regarding the more ‘bread and butter’ cars, it’s often cost of repairs. A new wing for a 100e is £600 if you can find one. Although regarding HRSR you may be surprised, there’s quite a few cars that have been competing 30 years plus, just with colour changes etc. The ICS era of the 80’s wrecked a few as they tyres were too sticky, meaning stress fractures in the shell. Things have got a bit ‘rougher’ (sadly) recently with some shells being destroyed (bad incident at Oulton a couple of weekends ago utterly wrecked a Lotus Cortina.
As for road use, you’re right, ours is impossible (and in MHO dangerous) to drive on the road.
Single seaters and Sportscars are a different proposition - they tend to hide away in garages then get rebuilt, either by the same of different owner. There’s a lot of F2’s now back having previously been used as the basis for modsports cars.
The reason why the Grey Lady has disappeared is that it isn’t eligible for any series (including Goodwood) - it was an exercise in ‘how far can I push it’, glorious as it was - effectively a silhouette saloon.
Interesting points re: stress fractures of the shells, hadn't considered that previously owing to most series stipulating the use of CR65s nowadays. As you say it seems as though historic motorsport has got more 'competitive', and subsequently expensive, over the past couple of decades - it used to be a spectacle to see a motorhome with extending sides, now at the Silverstone Classic (or other large meeting) they're very much the norm.
Yeah I agree that car wasn't built to any regs so probably why it's not been seen again on track; I always fancied it as a 'fast road car' or something to use in hillclimbs/trackdays and sprints, loved the look of it with the body dropped so much over those Borrani wire wheels - perfection...
Chunkychucky said:
ChevronB19 said:
Thanks for the shout out - dad’s car, but we both drive it, owned and competed in since 1971, it’s not going anywhere, and is in dad’s will to me and in my will to my daughter. Although to be fair, family reasons have caused us to take a 3 year break, but we’ll be out again later this season.
Regarding the more ‘bread and butter’ cars, it’s often cost of repairs. A new wing for a 100e is £600 if you can find one. Although regarding HRSR you may be surprised, there’s quite a few cars that have been competing 30 years plus, just with colour changes etc. The ICS era of the 80’s wrecked a few as they tyres were too sticky, meaning stress fractures in the shell. Things have got a bit ‘rougher’ (sadly) recently with some shells being destroyed (bad incident at Oulton a couple of weekends ago utterly wrecked a Lotus Cortina.
As for road use, you’re right, ours is impossible (and in MHO dangerous) to drive on the road.
Single seaters and Sportscars are a different proposition - they tend to hide away in garages then get rebuilt, either by the same of different owner. There’s a lot of F2’s now back having previously been used as the basis for modsports cars.
The reason why the Grey Lady has disappeared is that it isn’t eligible for any series (including Goodwood) - it was an exercise in ‘how far can I push it’, glorious as it was - effectively a silhouette saloon.
Yes I recall my father and I spoke to you/your father at Silverstone priobably 20-or-so years ago now, at the time I remember being fascinated with all the history of the car and marvelling at how great it was still being used in anger Regarding the more ‘bread and butter’ cars, it’s often cost of repairs. A new wing for a 100e is £600 if you can find one. Although regarding HRSR you may be surprised, there’s quite a few cars that have been competing 30 years plus, just with colour changes etc. The ICS era of the 80’s wrecked a few as they tyres were too sticky, meaning stress fractures in the shell. Things have got a bit ‘rougher’ (sadly) recently with some shells being destroyed (bad incident at Oulton a couple of weekends ago utterly wrecked a Lotus Cortina.
As for road use, you’re right, ours is impossible (and in MHO dangerous) to drive on the road.
Single seaters and Sportscars are a different proposition - they tend to hide away in garages then get rebuilt, either by the same of different owner. There’s a lot of F2’s now back having previously been used as the basis for modsports cars.
The reason why the Grey Lady has disappeared is that it isn’t eligible for any series (including Goodwood) - it was an exercise in ‘how far can I push it’, glorious as it was - effectively a silhouette saloon.
Interesting points re: stress fractures of the shells, hadn't considered that previously owing to most series stipulating the use of CR65s nowadays. As you say it seems as though historic motorsport has got more 'competitive', and subsequently expensive, over the past couple of decades - it used to be a spectacle to see a motorhome with extending sides, now at the Silverstone Classic (or other large meeting) they're very much the norm.
Yeah I agree that car wasn't built to any regs so probably why it's not been seen again on track; I always fancied it as a 'fast road car' or something to use in hillclimbs/trackdays and sprints, loved the look of it with the body dropped so much over those Borrani wire wheels - perfection...
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/14262/lot/465/
100e will be back, a few medical and time problems to sort out first. We also did the British GP support race in it in 2008, Motorsport did a feature in it as ‘the cheapest car ever to compete in a GP meeting’ (dad bought it for £4.50 - he got 50p in old money knocked off as he didn’t want the engine, but had to take it out in the scrapyard first).
Edited by ChevronB19 on Thursday 16th June 16:52
Won’t regulations and the desire for HTP be a factor? No one really cared in the 80s and 90s, cars were developed with lots of parts that now render them ineligible for the blue chip events, Equipe GTS prefer but don’t mandate FIA papers for example. The cost of rebuilding some cars is just too much and there aren’t any sties for them in their current state?
Absolutely, I feel this is something that has had a scary effect on costs/barriers to entry. In theory following a universal set of regulations is a good idea, however when you have a competitor building 2 Falcon Sprint historic touring cars, one with fully rosejointed/adjustable arms etc and testing it to find the perfect set up, then having the solid arms heated/bent to the same angles on the FIA 'Appendix K' car, it all gets a bit silly in terms of costs unfortunately 
Same guy also had a Mk 1 Lotus Cortina, from memory with a full exhaust system made from Inconel so that it measured the same external diameter as regulations stipulated, but obviously had far thinner walls so a greater internal volume.. 
Same guy also had a Mk 1 Lotus Cortina, from memory with a full exhaust system made from Inconel so that it measured the same external diameter as regulations stipulated, but obviously had far thinner walls so a greater internal volume.. pablo said:
Jeez, that second example is madness.
Sadly it is more and more common. We finished 4th o/a at Goodwood in 2002. We haven’t changed the spec of the car (no cash), but the most recent race we would’ve been 3rd last. Incremental gains by very rich people.Although to be ‘fair’ (ha!) in the 90’s BMW ran a historic team of 2 2002’s. The very popular rumour was the shells were acid dipped so the panels/shell were about half thickness. I don’t know of it was true, but I know the slightest pressure from a finger would cause the panel to deflect. At one point scrutineers we’re going round with magnets to detect Kevlar wings (steel stipulated).
Edited by ChevronB19 on Monday 20th June 11:38
ChevronB19 said:
Sadly it is more and more common. We finished 4th o/a at Goodwood in 2002. We haven’t changed the spec of the car (no cash), but the most recent race we would’ve been 3rd last. Incremental gains by very rich people.
Although to be ‘fair’ (ha!) in the 90’s BMW ran a historic team of 2 2002’s. The very popular rumour was the shells were acid dipped so the panels/shell were about half thickness. I don’t know of it was true, but I know the slightest pressure from a finger would cause the panel to deflect. At one point scrutineers we’re going round with magnets to detect Kevlar wings (steel stipulated).
Yeah as you say the increase of pace at the Revival is mad - an Austin A40 doing 1:35s? Although to be ‘fair’ (ha!) in the 90’s BMW ran a historic team of 2 2002’s. The very popular rumour was the shells were acid dipped so the panels/shell were about half thickness. I don’t know of it was true, but I know the slightest pressure from a finger would cause the panel to deflect. At one point scrutineers we’re going round with magnets to detect Kevlar wings (steel stipulated).
Edited by ChevronB19 on Monday 20th June 11:38
Granted it was driven by Andrew Jordan and developed within an inch of its life, but still that lap time probably would have been a reasonable effort for the RAC TT back in 2002! I unfortunately embarked on an Austin A35 build, which being a 50s car doesn't have any Appendix K regulations, and as such means I now have a moneypit that can run once every 2 years at the Goodwood Revival, or be altered to run in other series - be nice if Thurgood could have based his regulations on an actual series as opposed to doing his own thing for the 5 races a year the HRDC organise, but there we are!The 1990 series was funny with BMW and Alfa Romeo throwing works-backed efforts with works drivers out against the amateur club racers - got the race on Betamax tape somewhere...! Not quite sure why the manufacturers bothered and as pointed out this was probably the start of an escalation in costs and 'development'. I think it's to the detriment of the races as although the action is still close and great to watch, 'Formula Lotus Cortina' is a bit bland... My dream historic touring car is a '63 Galaxie Fastback, it would probably run out of brakes after 5 minutes but I wouldn't care...
Keep it stiff said:
Julius has floated the idea of kicking pre-57 back into life but dependent of course on the appetite of owners to fill a grid. If you have a saloon that might fit into this do let him know.
I might have done 10-or-so years ago before buying most parts Rae Davis Racing/Peter May Engineering offer, as it is i'm that far down the 'Speedwell Class' path in terms of time and thousands spent, i'm loathe to go changing parts/throwing bits away before the car has even turned a wheel.HRDC would be nice if it was run as a series/championship with a few regular rounds, as it is with one round a month/every 6 weeks and no sort of points system or incentive to do all the rounds, i'm unsure whether to get a load of fibreglass panels and just do the HRSR series that run with the HSCC, at least they have a few decent meetings.
Chunkychucky said:
ChevronB19 said:
Sadly it is more and more common. We finished 4th o/a at Goodwood in 2002. We haven’t changed the spec of the car (no cash), but the most recent race we would’ve been 3rd last. Incremental gains by very rich people.
Although to be ‘fair’ (ha!) in the 90’s BMW ran a historic team of 2 2002’s. The very popular rumour was the shells were acid dipped so the panels/shell were about half thickness. I don’t know of it was true, but I know the slightest pressure from a finger would cause the panel to deflect. At one point scrutineers we’re going round with magnets to detect Kevlar wings (steel stipulated).
Yeah as you say the increase of pace at the Revival is mad - an Austin A40 doing 1:35s? Although to be ‘fair’ (ha!) in the 90’s BMW ran a historic team of 2 2002’s. The very popular rumour was the shells were acid dipped so the panels/shell were about half thickness. I don’t know of it was true, but I know the slightest pressure from a finger would cause the panel to deflect. At one point scrutineers we’re going round with magnets to detect Kevlar wings (steel stipulated).
Edited by ChevronB19 on Monday 20th June 11:38
Granted it was driven by Andrew Jordan and developed within an inch of its life, but still that lap time probably would have been a reasonable effort for the RAC TT back in 2002! I unfortunately embarked on an Austin A35 build, which being a 50s car doesn't have any Appendix K regulations, and as such means I now have a moneypit that can run once every 2 years at the Goodwood Revival, or be altered to run in other series - be nice if Thurgood could have based his regulations on an actual series as opposed to doing his own thing for the 5 races a year the HRDC organise, but there we are!The 1990 series was funny with BMW and Alfa Romeo throwing works-backed efforts with works drivers out against the amateur club racers - got the race on Betamax tape somewhere...! Not quite sure why the manufacturers bothered and as pointed out this was probably the start of an escalation in costs and 'development'. I think it's to the detriment of the races as although the action is still close and great to watch, 'Formula Lotus Cortina' is a bit bland... My dream historic touring car is a '63 Galaxie Fastback, it would probably run out of brakes after 5 minutes but I wouldn't care...
Is your A35 to Academy regs? I’m sure one of my in-laws racecars ended up racing there, the other still doing Revival.
emicen said:
A40s are available to buy from JRT as customer cars. Not cheap, right enough…
Is your A35 to Academy regs? I’m sure one of my in-laws racecars ended up racing there, the other still doing Revival.
I probably should have done to be fair, but I built it to the 'Speedwell' class regulations. At the time the Academy class first began the cars weren't allowed LSDs, which to me just seemed daft/dangerous and resulted in a number of rollover crashes in that first season. That and the fact that the cars were allowed a number of fibreglass panels, when i'd already restored/lightened all the original metal panels, kind of steered me down the Speedwell class route.Is your A35 to Academy regs? I’m sure one of my in-laws racecars ended up racing there, the other still doing Revival.
Chunkychucky said:
Trev450 said:
If my recent experience is anything to go by it could be something to do with the crazy values a lot of these cars are now fetching.
I campaigned an Evo V1 RS in sprints and hill climbs from 2009 until the end of last year. I was repeatedly informed of how much the value of this car had increased in recent years and in the end, I was made an offer I couldn't refuse. The buyer has no intention of using it for competition and has added it to his growing collection of cars that aren't even driven.
I did wonder if this, associated costs of parts, or even escalating entry costs/equipment costs had made a few competitors get sick and throw it in.. I campaigned an Evo V1 RS in sprints and hill climbs from 2009 until the end of last year. I was repeatedly informed of how much the value of this car had increased in recent years and in the end, I was made an offer I couldn't refuse. The buyer has no intention of using it for competition and has added it to his growing collection of cars that aren't even driven.
Remember when stock hatch, for example, was awash with XR2s, Novas, and 205s, and a crash at the weekend could see a replacement donor or running car purchased for a few hundred quid, and a competitor could be back on the track in a week or two.
Parts are now scarce and therefore expensive for all of our beloved cars, and they are no longer necessarily competitive in classes that allow newer cars; Whilst newer cars might be heavier, they can still be made to be significantly lighter than standard, and come with many benefits over older cars.
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