Discussion
By way of background, I have never got on with Sims or racing games as somehow my perception is crap and I can't get dialled in to working purely with sight on screens - even big curved ones, as in proper Darren Turner type sims. I had a theory though that I might be suited to VR having tried out tank commander in VR on a playstation. Yesterday I had the fun of driving the sim/e-games VR rig at Williams HQ round Interlagos. And that has proved my theory, I am a natural in VR. It only took a few minutes to get dialled in to a new circuit. I'm very happy indeed 
So I am contemplating getting some sort of VR based setup for home. I'd like it to be useful and accurate in driving historic single seaters to help my racing and also useful for some online racing. So needs to have 3 pedals and H pattern gear change, ideally paddles as well.
I can't quite work out where to put it in the house and whether it'll need to be portable or whether I can set it up somewhere permanently.
Fanatec looks like a good place to start and I think the gear at Williams was from them.
Anyone know about this stuff to advise?
TIA
Bert
So I am contemplating getting some sort of VR based setup for home. I'd like it to be useful and accurate in driving historic single seaters to help my racing and also useful for some online racing. So needs to have 3 pedals and H pattern gear change, ideally paddles as well.
I can't quite work out where to put it in the house and whether it'll need to be portable or whether I can set it up somewhere permanently.
Fanatec looks like a good place to start and I think the gear at Williams was from them.
Anyone know about this stuff to advise?
TIA
Bert
It's a fairly costly exercise in both sim hardware and the required PC + VR.
What would you like to know?
The Fanatec stuff is very good, there are better options out there but they can be far more involving to set up and are either a similar price to Fanatec or many times higher.
VR headsets, there's no one answer to this, I have an Oculus Rift which is pretty good but there are lots of other options out there, it's mostly personal preference although I'd love to compare the Pimax to my rift and see how much of an improvement it is.
Computing power, ideally you need a high end graphics card and CPU to run in VR at high visual settings and frame rates depending on the game/sim you're using...
Which leads me on to the sim/game, here there are a fair number of options, some of which are more 'gamey' and some which are serious sims that current F1 drivers take part in.
What would you like to know?
The Fanatec stuff is very good, there are better options out there but they can be far more involving to set up and are either a similar price to Fanatec or many times higher.
VR headsets, there's no one answer to this, I have an Oculus Rift which is pretty good but there are lots of other options out there, it's mostly personal preference although I'd love to compare the Pimax to my rift and see how much of an improvement it is.
Computing power, ideally you need a high end graphics card and CPU to run in VR at high visual settings and frame rates depending on the game/sim you're using...
Which leads me on to the sim/game, here there are a fair number of options, some of which are more 'gamey' and some which are serious sims that current F1 drivers take part in.
Fanatec make some great wheels and pedals at the cheaper end of expensive - although I don't like their H pattern shifter much.
VR - Oculus Rift.
Various different seat frames, some which collapse
You will need a pretty powerful computer to do it justice - but plenty of sims out there - Assetto Corsa, Project Cars 2, iRacing, Assetto Corsa Competizione.
VR - Oculus Rift.
Various different seat frames, some which collapse
You will need a pretty powerful computer to do it justice - but plenty of sims out there - Assetto Corsa, Project Cars 2, iRacing, Assetto Corsa Competizione.
Have a chat with Ben at PRS. https://www.proracingsimulators.co.uk/
He can provide good advise on the best setup and can build you something plug and play.
Only uses the best quality kit.
He can provide good advise on the best setup and can build you something plug and play.
Only uses the best quality kit.
Bertrum said:
Have a chat with Ben at PRS. https://www.proracingsimulators.co.uk/
He can provide good advise on the best setup and can build you something plug and play.
Only uses the best quality kit.
Given he's using a pretty entry level and pedal wheel on a £21k setup, I'd take that with a pinch of salt!He can provide good advise on the best setup and can build you something plug and play.
Only uses the best quality kit.
andrewcliffe said:
Most of his seem to be using a Thrustmaster controllers.
Logitech --> Thrustmaster --> Fanatec
He does kindly give you the option to upgrade the equipment to Fanatec or better (for a rather inflated price), same with the Rift S, yours for 'only' £720 extra Logitech --> Thrustmaster --> Fanatec
For the money they're charging for the 'lowest' spec, you could build something far better than their highest spec and still have cash in the bank.
You're looking at ~£8k for a pretty high spec build and they're charging ~£24k and what I guess isn't high spec throughout.
I'd like to see what the 'stage 2' gaming pc consists of, I'm going to guess at distinctly mid-range.
I've raced on sims since the 90s and currently have an Oculus Rift running on a good spec gaming PC with Logitech wheel and pedals. I've tried all the current well known sims (including RFactor Pro), although with the OR VR I've only tried Assetto Corsa (my favourite sim).
You can start with simply a Logitech wheel clamped to a desk and a set of pedals - this is what I have at home, plus an upgraded spring on the brake pedal for realism. Whilst it's been the case for 5 years or more that most driving sims are very light on PC requirements (my outgoing PC was old and ran AC across three monitors on maximum resolution), with VR it does help to have a powerful PC, as resolution is a big factor in home VR. A friend of mine (SlipStream77 on here) has the next level up, which is a fairly affordable frame to bolt the steering wheel to; personally I find the driving position of his setup a bit alien to my single seater background, and I think if I was going down that route I'd probably pick up a crash damaged FR/F3 tub and build from there. As Andrew mentions above, there's a whole spectrum of wheels and pedals out there and you can go as far as you want. I must say though that having tried a top level sim with all bells and whistles as well as mine at home, once I'm driving the car I don't feel a huge amount of difference - it's still a very similar experience.
In terms of sims, the major three are rFactor, iRacing and Assetto Corsa:
Personally, I find Assetto Corsa has the most realistic feel to it (I've raced and tracked a fair few cars that they model, so can compare directly - someone even did a back to back of my real lap with their sim lap on You Tube if you search) and the most flexibility. Assetto Corsa is no longer produced by Kunos; they've moved over to a new product called Assetto Corsa Competizione, which models the Blancpain series (I've bought this, but find it rather dull).
RFactor's pretty good, but to me always had a slightly detached 'glassy' feel to it, plus many of the cars are simply created by people in their bedrooms, so you've no idea as to the realism (some are immensely detailed though - it's a lucky dip).
iRacing got off to a shaky start (I never liked their tyre model in the early days), but feels much better now, although isn't very flexible (it's structured like a game rather than a sim) and the circuits available are poor (e.g. Silverstone is the old GP circuit from the 90s!) - it's also US centred, with few European tracks and no UK club tracks. iRacing is also quite expensive, and I'm currently in a dispute with them about charging me £100 for a year's membership even though I had cancelled.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
You can start with simply a Logitech wheel clamped to a desk and a set of pedals - this is what I have at home, plus an upgraded spring on the brake pedal for realism. Whilst it's been the case for 5 years or more that most driving sims are very light on PC requirements (my outgoing PC was old and ran AC across three monitors on maximum resolution), with VR it does help to have a powerful PC, as resolution is a big factor in home VR. A friend of mine (SlipStream77 on here) has the next level up, which is a fairly affordable frame to bolt the steering wheel to; personally I find the driving position of his setup a bit alien to my single seater background, and I think if I was going down that route I'd probably pick up a crash damaged FR/F3 tub and build from there. As Andrew mentions above, there's a whole spectrum of wheels and pedals out there and you can go as far as you want. I must say though that having tried a top level sim with all bells and whistles as well as mine at home, once I'm driving the car I don't feel a huge amount of difference - it's still a very similar experience.
In terms of sims, the major three are rFactor, iRacing and Assetto Corsa:
Personally, I find Assetto Corsa has the most realistic feel to it (I've raced and tracked a fair few cars that they model, so can compare directly - someone even did a back to back of my real lap with their sim lap on You Tube if you search) and the most flexibility. Assetto Corsa is no longer produced by Kunos; they've moved over to a new product called Assetto Corsa Competizione, which models the Blancpain series (I've bought this, but find it rather dull).
RFactor's pretty good, but to me always had a slightly detached 'glassy' feel to it, plus many of the cars are simply created by people in their bedrooms, so you've no idea as to the realism (some are immensely detailed though - it's a lucky dip).
iRacing got off to a shaky start (I never liked their tyre model in the early days), but feels much better now, although isn't very flexible (it's structured like a game rather than a sim) and the circuits available are poor (e.g. Silverstone is the old GP circuit from the 90s!) - it's also US centred, with few European tracks and no UK club tracks. iRacing is also quite expensive, and I'm currently in a dispute with them about charging me £100 for a year's membership even though I had cancelled.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Hi everyone,
Ben Leach from PRS here. I can understand some of what is being said here if you take a look at our website. Especially if you come from a technical background and are able to build a sim yourself.
Please just bear in mind that we offer a turn key service for our customers. Delivery, installation, aftersales support and warranty all included in our prices. For some people (that are less technical) this is exactly what they want and would rather pay a bit more to receive a personalised service.
The prices shown on the website leave room for negotiation so please take them with a pinch of salt. In fact I'd be happy to offer a discount code to make sure people feel they're getting value for money. 15% discount on all Simulators with the following code at checkout:
ph15
We often sell static sims spec'ced with DD Wheels, hydraulic pedals and triple screens for sub 10k. Also, we don't have exact promotional images for every model, so nearly every product image shows a t500rs! My apologies if this is misleading.
In terms of pc specs, we don't list them on the website as often people may not understand what they're looking at. Also, superior components are released frequently so this saves us updating the website each time we tweak a spec. Current stage 2 spec is as follows:
AMD Ryzen 3600x
16GB DDR4 3000MHZ
480GB SSD
RTX 2070
I'd happily answer any questions anyone has and even offer advice on a DIY build, if you want to contact me via our website or via DM.
We are only a small company and I wouldnt want any bad feeling toward the company.
Many thanks,
Ben
Ben Leach from PRS here. I can understand some of what is being said here if you take a look at our website. Especially if you come from a technical background and are able to build a sim yourself.
Please just bear in mind that we offer a turn key service for our customers. Delivery, installation, aftersales support and warranty all included in our prices. For some people (that are less technical) this is exactly what they want and would rather pay a bit more to receive a personalised service.
The prices shown on the website leave room for negotiation so please take them with a pinch of salt. In fact I'd be happy to offer a discount code to make sure people feel they're getting value for money. 15% discount on all Simulators with the following code at checkout:
ph15
We often sell static sims spec'ced with DD Wheels, hydraulic pedals and triple screens for sub 10k. Also, we don't have exact promotional images for every model, so nearly every product image shows a t500rs! My apologies if this is misleading.
In terms of pc specs, we don't list them on the website as often people may not understand what they're looking at. Also, superior components are released frequently so this saves us updating the website each time we tweak a spec. Current stage 2 spec is as follows:
AMD Ryzen 3600x
16GB DDR4 3000MHZ
480GB SSD
RTX 2070
I'd happily answer any questions anyone has and even offer advice on a DIY build, if you want to contact me via our website or via DM.
We are only a small company and I wouldnt want any bad feeling toward the company.
Many thanks,
Ben
bwl001 said:
Hi everyone,
Ben Leach from PRS here. I can understand some of what is being said here if you take a look at our website. Especially if you come from a technical background and are able to build a sim yourself.
Please just bear in mind that we offer a turn key service for our customers. Delivery, installation, aftersales support and warranty all included in our prices. For some people (that are less technical) this is exactly what they want and would rather pay a bit more to receive a personalised service.
The prices shown on the website leave room for negotiation so please take them with a pinch of salt. In fact I'd be happy to offer a discount code to make sure people feel they're getting value for money. 15% discount on all Simulators with the following code at checkout:
ph15
We often sell static sims spec'ced with DD Wheels, hydraulic pedals and triple screens for sub 10k. Also, we don't have exact promotional images for every model, so nearly every product image shows a t500rs! My apologies if this is misleading.
In terms of pc specs, we don't list them on the website as often people may not understand what they're looking at. Also, superior components are released frequently so this saves us updating the website each time we tweak a spec. Current stage 2 spec is as follows:
AMD Ryzen 3600x
16GB DDR4 3000MHZ
480GB SSD
RTX 2070
I'd happily answer any questions anyone has and even offer advice on a DIY build, if you want to contact me via our website or via DM.
We are only a small company and I wouldnt want any bad feeling toward the company.
Many thanks,
Ben
Fair post.Ben Leach from PRS here. I can understand some of what is being said here if you take a look at our website. Especially if you come from a technical background and are able to build a sim yourself.
Please just bear in mind that we offer a turn key service for our customers. Delivery, installation, aftersales support and warranty all included in our prices. For some people (that are less technical) this is exactly what they want and would rather pay a bit more to receive a personalised service.
The prices shown on the website leave room for negotiation so please take them with a pinch of salt. In fact I'd be happy to offer a discount code to make sure people feel they're getting value for money. 15% discount on all Simulators with the following code at checkout:
ph15
We often sell static sims spec'ced with DD Wheels, hydraulic pedals and triple screens for sub 10k. Also, we don't have exact promotional images for every model, so nearly every product image shows a t500rs! My apologies if this is misleading.
In terms of pc specs, we don't list them on the website as often people may not understand what they're looking at. Also, superior components are released frequently so this saves us updating the website each time we tweak a spec. Current stage 2 spec is as follows:
AMD Ryzen 3600x
16GB DDR4 3000MHZ
480GB SSD
RTX 2070
I'd happily answer any questions anyone has and even offer advice on a DIY build, if you want to contact me via our website or via DM.
We are only a small company and I wouldnt want any bad feeling toward the company.
Many thanks,
Ben
My response was mainly aimed at the guy who plugged the website originally.
Bertrum said:
Have a chat with Ben at PRS. https://www.proracingsimulators.co.uk/
He can provide good advise on the best setup and can build you something plug and play.
Only uses the best quality kit.
I clicked through to see the prices of what I assumed would be 'the best quality kit' but was a bit surprised to see what was included in the base price of a rig.He can provide good advise on the best setup and can build you something plug and play.
Only uses the best quality kit.
I get the turnkey solution with support etc, I just think it is hugely overpriced in my opinion given that these days the majority of stuff is plug and play.
As nice as the 15% discount is and a noteworthy inclusion for someone who isn't too sure on what they need or how to do it, the website prices clearly carry a huge margin on them for you to give that away so easily.
I'd assume around 100% margin on most of the rigs (nice work if you can get it
).Thanks for the specs on the PC, it is as I thought it would be, it's good but not top end for the price. i.e you can't run in anything over low/medium settings at 90fps in VR on Project Cars 2.
Thank you for your reply. I see exactly where you're coming from whereby you were responding to the "best quality equipment" line.
I think your words reflect things accurately and appreciate your honest input.
We do make large margins but we operate in a niche market and when units sales only just break into double figures each year, it is fair to expect this. After all, we have many overheads to account for. Staff wages, premises and associated costs. Not to mention corporation tax and the raft of other costs a business has to cover. So although gross profit may be high on a unit, let me assure you that net profit is only just enough to support our staff and certainly not profiteering. Please feel free to check out our filed accounts at companies house to confirm.
I do disagree about the plug and play bit. Yes you can plug things in and make it work but setup and tuning is key to an accurate simulation. This is often taken for granted.
Anyway, all the best with everything.
I think your words reflect things accurately and appreciate your honest input.
We do make large margins but we operate in a niche market and when units sales only just break into double figures each year, it is fair to expect this. After all, we have many overheads to account for. Staff wages, premises and associated costs. Not to mention corporation tax and the raft of other costs a business has to cover. So although gross profit may be high on a unit, let me assure you that net profit is only just enough to support our staff and certainly not profiteering. Please feel free to check out our filed accounts at companies house to confirm.
I do disagree about the plug and play bit. Yes you can plug things in and make it work but setup and tuning is key to an accurate simulation. This is often taken for granted.
Anyway, all the best with everything.
Thanks all for the info. Looks like lots of choice and some budgetary decisions to make.
One thing that does concern me is how to get a sim model setup that has the same characteristics as my ff2000 race car. I drove one that was set up to be the same lap time around croft based on an f3 car and it wasn't well balanced at all.
Bert
One thing that does concern me is how to get a sim model setup that has the same characteristics as my ff2000 race car. I drove one that was set up to be the same lap time around croft based on an f3 car and it wasn't well balanced at all.
Bert
iRacing fan boy here.
Just to offer some information in contrast to the post above. iRacing does have the latest Silverstone circuit. It takes longer to get them on as they are all laser scanned for accuracy.
It is a more expensive than the others with its subscription service however its small fry really and despite people complaining, they have seen massive and sustained growth over these last few years.
Im not sure where the more game than sim theory came from. Is say exactly the opposite. You are racing against real people 100% of the time, quite often accomplished racers will be there on the grid with you.
Its certainly worth a proper look at and the Skip Barber car I imagine is fairly close to a formula Ford and is a very well populated series with big grids and I think hourly races.
Regards kit. Just buy used when starting out. There are regularly full setups for sale at very reasonable prices.
Thrustmaster stuff is good, Fanatec is better but can have some failures and I understand not the best after service.
Just to offer some information in contrast to the post above. iRacing does have the latest Silverstone circuit. It takes longer to get them on as they are all laser scanned for accuracy.
It is a more expensive than the others with its subscription service however its small fry really and despite people complaining, they have seen massive and sustained growth over these last few years.
Im not sure where the more game than sim theory came from. Is say exactly the opposite. You are racing against real people 100% of the time, quite often accomplished racers will be there on the grid with you.
Its certainly worth a proper look at and the Skip Barber car I imagine is fairly close to a formula Ford and is a very well populated series with big grids and I think hourly races.
Regards kit. Just buy used when starting out. There are regularly full setups for sale at very reasonable prices.
Thrustmaster stuff is good, Fanatec is better but can have some failures and I understand not the best after service.
Edited by Rick101 on Wednesday 20th November 05:52
Bert, have you spoken to Brad? He's just set up his own sim (although it's a big curved screen type) but sells home stuff too. He can calibrate a model of a specific race car and do online coaching sessions too.
www.twentyoneperformance.com
www.twentyoneperformance.com
Rick101 said:
iRacing fan boy here.
Just to offer some information in contrast to the post above. iRacing does have the latest Silverstone circuit. It takes longer to get them on as they are all laser scanned for accuracy.
It is a more expensive than the others with its subscription service however its small fry really and despite people complaining, they have seen massive and sustained growth over these last few years.
Im not sure where the more game than sim theory came from. Is say exactly the opposite. You are racing against real people 100% of the time, quite often accomplished racers will be there on the grid with you.
Its certainly worth a proper look at and the Skip Barber car I imagine is fairly close to a formula Ford and is a very well populated series with big grids and I think hourly races.
Regards kit. Just buy used when starting out. There are regularly full setups for sale at very reasonable prices.
Thrustmaster stuff is good, Fanatec is better but can have some failures and I understand not the best after service.
Just to explain my comments a bit further:Just to offer some information in contrast to the post above. iRacing does have the latest Silverstone circuit. It takes longer to get them on as they are all laser scanned for accuracy.
It is a more expensive than the others with its subscription service however its small fry really and despite people complaining, they have seen massive and sustained growth over these last few years.
Im not sure where the more game than sim theory came from. Is say exactly the opposite. You are racing against real people 100% of the time, quite often accomplished racers will be there on the grid with you.
Its certainly worth a proper look at and the Skip Barber car I imagine is fairly close to a formula Ford and is a very well populated series with big grids and I think hourly races.
Regards kit. Just buy used when starting out. There are regularly full setups for sale at very reasonable prices.
Thrustmaster stuff is good, Fanatec is better but can have some failures and I understand not the best after service.
Edited by Rick101 on Wednesday 20th November 05:52
Silverstone was just the old 90s layout in November last year. I've just looked up my e-mails because I tried to get a refund. I bought iRacing and Silverstone to practise for a forthcoming race there, only to find it wasn't the current layout. That's pretty poor because the current layout went down in 2011, so they had 7 years of running the wrong layout, and charging for it! This explains my US centric comment - obviously the UK is a low priority, even our current GP track. iRacing refused to give me my money back at first, but after four or five e-mails they did finally agree. To charge for an out of date circuit is very poor.
The "game rather than sim" comment came for a number of reasons. I've got them all jotted down at home and am happy to elaborate when I'm next back home. From memory though I can remember two of the main reasons:
1) When I got iRacing I bought my car for it, a Formula Renault, but then found I was limited to solo practise and couldn't race because I needed to complete races in a low spec car like an MX5 first to gain credits or somesuch - that's not a sim, that's a game with 'levels'.
2) Secondly, the modelling of the FR was completely unrealistic, which for a paid extra in a so called 'simulation' is pretty substandard. The real car has a rollstack/monoshock front suspension design (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Formula_Renault_front_2.jpg), which separates roll and pitch, having a conventional spring and damper in pitch, but only a spring (the "roll stack" of Belville washers) in roll. This is a fundamental of chassis design and completely omitted by iRacing; from memory I think they modelled it as a twin damper setup, like an F3 car. From memory I think they also modelled the anti roll bars wrongly too. Furthermore, the tyre pressures of the FR, in fact any 500kg car (single seater, Radical, Caterham etc), would typically be set between 15 and 20psi cold - the pressure range on iRacing doesn't even start that low, so they've got that wrong for every single seater, Radical, Caterham, Sports 2000 style car etc that they model. The wing settings were also wrong, spring rate choices, LSD settings, gear ratios, etc. I, and many others I'm sure, would have happily taken my car to meet the iRacing team and let them spend days measuring it to get everything correct - furthermore the user handbook with full specs is freely available online. In summary, in no way can that be classed as a 'simulation'. I was expecting to be able to put my setup on the car, whereas in reality I couldn't even start to do that. Also, if you think about it, if the tyres in the lightweight cars are reaching operating temperature at completely the wrong pressures, what does that tells us about their physics model and/or tyre model?... Not a simulation by any means.
Edited to add some balance: What iRacing does give you is a very fair system of online racing. Other more open access sims and games are spoilt by wreckers and people who don't take it seriously. That is what you're paying for.
Assetto Corsa has slightly more accuracy in terms of setups and I'm guessing physics, and that was about £30 on-off payment for the game and lots of cars, then for extra cars you paid what iRacing charge for one car for a pack of four or five. So better value for money and more realistic.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 20th November 09:50
Rick101 said:
Regards kit. Just buy used when starting out. There are regularly full setups for sale at very reasonable prices.
Thrustmaster stuff is good, Fanatec is better but can have some failures and I understand not the best after service.
Missed this. Where's the best place to buy used? I assume there are forums and classifieds?Thrustmaster stuff is good, Fanatec is better but can have some failures and I understand not the best after service.
Thanks
Bert
Faceachebook has a page, Sim Racing Buy and Sell UK I think its called.
Most stuff usually listed there or ebay. iRacing does have a classifieds but you need to be a member to access.
Quite a few Sim enthusiasts on here. If you're anywhere near York more than happy to show you my setup. I'm also on Oculus.
Most stuff usually listed there or ebay. iRacing does have a classifieds but you need to be a member to access.
Quite a few Sim enthusiasts on here. If you're anywhere near York more than happy to show you my setup. I'm also on Oculus.
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