Talk to me about 7 style cars (or single seat) speed events
Discussion
Hi,
I have competed in sprints and hillcilmbs in various production cars, in various states of modification, in various championships for several years. In the early days (pre children, when my wife worked) I had a dedicated competition car, but more recently I've had to buy a competition car that can also step in, if required, as a road car from time to time.
I'm now in a position where I can probably justify a car purely for competition for the first time since we had the kids. Still a bit tight though.
So the ideal car would be:
Compact
Easy and simple to repair (I mean really easy - like pushrod engine easy)
Little or nothing to tax and insure
Likely to at least hold its value
Cheap consumables such a tyres
Competitive, at least in the sence that the class is well enough supported to have someone to race against.
Ready to go for less than £6k
I realise that no motorsport is cheap but I'd like to have a car that doesn't cost too much. Because I'll only do 5 or 6 events per year the road tax + insurance etc makes each event more expensive, for example, as do expensive (large) tyres.
I had thought about classics, which is how I started out (in MGs) but there aren't many that I really want, if I'm honest. Though the no tax, or MOT would be nice. As would the ability to go for a trip to the pub and test on the road.
This brings me to more focused cars - either a 7 type kit (or possibly a single seater, though I doubt I can afford one.) I don't know much about either of them, though have always fancied an older Sylva or a X-flow Westfield or Caterham. The Caterham has a good championship structure, in that they are grouped by power output and therefore a x-flow car could be competitive, where as the Westfiled is only by engine capacity so an old 1800cc car would be disadvantaged against a modern one. Caterham too expensive anyway.
Final complication is that I live in Norwich, therefore most national events tend to be along way away. So a car that would be competitive in an eastern championship, or at least have someone to race against even if not able to win the class would be great! Alternatively a national championship that has 5 or six events towards the East (Snett, Hethel, Silverstone, Debden etc)
Obviously I'm asking for the moon but I thought I'd see what the pistonheads brain can come up with.
Thanks
I have competed in sprints and hillcilmbs in various production cars, in various states of modification, in various championships for several years. In the early days (pre children, when my wife worked) I had a dedicated competition car, but more recently I've had to buy a competition car that can also step in, if required, as a road car from time to time.
I'm now in a position where I can probably justify a car purely for competition for the first time since we had the kids. Still a bit tight though.
So the ideal car would be:
Compact
Easy and simple to repair (I mean really easy - like pushrod engine easy)
Little or nothing to tax and insure
Likely to at least hold its value
Cheap consumables such a tyres
Competitive, at least in the sence that the class is well enough supported to have someone to race against.
Ready to go for less than £6k
I realise that no motorsport is cheap but I'd like to have a car that doesn't cost too much. Because I'll only do 5 or 6 events per year the road tax + insurance etc makes each event more expensive, for example, as do expensive (large) tyres.
I had thought about classics, which is how I started out (in MGs) but there aren't many that I really want, if I'm honest. Though the no tax, or MOT would be nice. As would the ability to go for a trip to the pub and test on the road.
This brings me to more focused cars - either a 7 type kit (or possibly a single seater, though I doubt I can afford one.) I don't know much about either of them, though have always fancied an older Sylva or a X-flow Westfield or Caterham. The Caterham has a good championship structure, in that they are grouped by power output and therefore a x-flow car could be competitive, where as the Westfiled is only by engine capacity so an old 1800cc car would be disadvantaged against a modern one. Caterham too expensive anyway.
Final complication is that I live in Norwich, therefore most national events tend to be along way away. So a car that would be competitive in an eastern championship, or at least have someone to race against even if not able to win the class would be great! Alternatively a national championship that has 5 or six events towards the East (Snett, Hethel, Silverstone, Debden etc)
Obviously I'm asking for the moon but I thought I'd see what the pistonheads brain can come up with.
Thanks
you could try contacting: http://www.hertscountyaac.co.uk/ they run events at Debden and Hethel. They may be able to point you in the right direction.
andrewcliffe said:
You could probably get a Formula Ford Zetec for your asking price - simple to work on, although setup needs accuracy. Not road legal though, so would need towing
This was my first thought as well.. possible issues are:What class, and who would you compete against? I would start at looking at your most likely events and work out the car for class based on that.
It would still need insuring, as would the trailer. Unlikely to be a massive cost saving.
Tyre costs could be significant. Suspect that you're looking at a grand to get soft slicks. They wouldn't last years.
Unless you could do absolutely all the engine work yourself, I'd steer clear of something old like a x flow. Get something more modern, and that won't need touching.
Trailer. Half decent one will cost £1500. Will need servicing, and tow car sorted already? Safe place to store it? Plus insurance costs.
Given the number of events that you do, I would just be aiming to keep it fun with minimal hassle.
Have you still got the Civic?? What's the main issues with that??
Hi,
Thanks for all the replies.
yes, still have the Civic.
There is no issue with it as such, although a changes in lifestyle (children have got older, need delivering to clubs etc, my job means I'm less likely to be home) means that it now gets used at least twice a week to take me to work so my wife can use the family car to ferry children about.
I bought the Civic primarily because it would be reasonably competitive in class, and it is, but if I broke or crashed it we'd be in a real issue where as before I would have just used the other car to go to work and it wouldn't really be a problem. The plan was always that the Civic would be able to be an occasional back-up car, if needed, which is why I chose it over a two seater, but if it is needed two or three times a week that is no longer backing-up.
So I'd like to move the Civic to "second car" and buy a competition only car.
(Also we are lucky enough to have a triple garage and it seems silly not to have 3 cars.)
Yes have tow car and space.
Regarding single seaters / clubmans, problem is I would need to buy car and trailer for the money, so I'm not sure it is possible. I don't really investigate the system when I'm competing but he single seaters don't seem to be very well supported and there seems to be a huge range of performance within classes. Some cars without wings in the same class as those with, for example.
Thanks again.
Thanks for all the replies.
yes, still have the Civic.
There is no issue with it as such, although a changes in lifestyle (children have got older, need delivering to clubs etc, my job means I'm less likely to be home) means that it now gets used at least twice a week to take me to work so my wife can use the family car to ferry children about.
I bought the Civic primarily because it would be reasonably competitive in class, and it is, but if I broke or crashed it we'd be in a real issue where as before I would have just used the other car to go to work and it wouldn't really be a problem. The plan was always that the Civic would be able to be an occasional back-up car, if needed, which is why I chose it over a two seater, but if it is needed two or three times a week that is no longer backing-up.
So I'd like to move the Civic to "second car" and buy a competition only car.
(Also we are lucky enough to have a triple garage and it seems silly not to have 3 cars.)
Yes have tow car and space.
Regarding single seaters / clubmans, problem is I would need to buy car and trailer for the money, so I'm not sure it is possible. I don't really investigate the system when I'm competing but he single seaters don't seem to be very well supported and there seems to be a huge range of performance within classes. Some cars without wings in the same class as those with, for example.
Thanks again.
Edited by Norfolkandchance on Tuesday 26th February 09:23
Sometimes a single seater will come with a trailer as part of the package deal. A chap caller Dermot Healy specialises in 'unloved' single seaters.
Tyres - you can buy new ultra soft things from Avon etc., for £ 850 per set which won't last long before the compound hardens - however you can get slicks from the professional race series who have used them for a session or two before junking them. Yes the absolute best has been taken from them but still offer plenty of use for a less demanding driver and low cost. They are a circuit racing compound rather than a sprint compound so a little harder.
My only experience sprinting was as a total novice in a 1988 Reynard F3 car, with only one session running up and down a runway beforehand, and ancient F3 slicks. Didn't embarrass myself. My brother and I won a couple of trophies before he switched to circuit racing.
Tyres - you can buy new ultra soft things from Avon etc., for £ 850 per set which won't last long before the compound hardens - however you can get slicks from the professional race series who have used them for a session or two before junking them. Yes the absolute best has been taken from them but still offer plenty of use for a less demanding driver and low cost. They are a circuit racing compound rather than a sprint compound so a little harder.
My only experience sprinting was as a total novice in a 1988 Reynard F3 car, with only one session running up and down a runway beforehand, and ancient F3 slicks. Didn't embarrass myself. My brother and I won a couple of trophies before he switched to circuit racing.
Norfolkandchance said:
Obviously I'm asking for the moon but I thought I'd see what the pistonheads brain can come up with.
Why Sprinting and or hillclimbs when cost is the ask? would be my question. By the time you have a suit, boots, helmet, hans and licence etc you have already blown a fair chunk of your budget which impacts your chance of being competitive.
Then there is the challenge that sprints themselves are more expensive (entry fees and tyres etc) and not necessarily close to you.
I'd check out the Association of Eastern Motor Clubs https://aemc.org.uk/ which has a decent calendar of events in the East.
and possibly join West Suffolk MC and speak to a few of those chaps. http://wsmc.co.uk/
Looking at the calendar, there is a sprint Championship in the East (that I didn't know about) https://aemc.org.uk/Sprint and you can see the previous winners / classes for ideas.
The other thing I'd consider is that there are other alternatives to sprinting that might actually suit you better.
Targa rallying is all new in the last few years and is designed to be low cost (no suit required etc) so you can be competitive in a £1K car with event entry fees at about £50.
Join the facebook Targa rallying group for more info.
One thing you mustn't overlook is the advantage 'closed wheel' cars have over 'open wheel' cars when it comes to the price and availability of track time. There's no such thing as an 'open wheel trackday' as far as I have seen- you have to book a test day... which means race licence, in date gear etc etc.
Norfolkandchance said:
Regarding single seaters / clubmans, problem is I would need to buy car and trailer for the money, so I'm not sure it is possible. I don't really investigate the system when I'm competing but he single seaters don't seem to be very well supported and there seems to be a huge range of performance within classes. Some cars without wings in the same class as those with, for example.
This is a reasonable concern. I think you'd struggle with the suggested budget to buy something with a good enough engine to be truly competitive, and you want some proper class competition which isn't certain. Edited by Norfolkandchance on Tuesday 26th February 09:23
I also have a general safety concern about older single seaters (Jedis for example) and some two seaters (ROPS regs need to be looked at). That's something to think about when considering options. I wouldn't have any issue with something like a Ginetta G20 race car, but that's not really designed for sprints. You need a caterham / westfield with a bike engine, and that's all mega money.
I think you should definitely work out what class would be fun, and focus on possible options based on that. Events in the SW are generally well supported across all classes, but not certain if that's the case elsewhere.
Buy a boring second car, and spend the rest on developing the Civic into something more special?? EP3 comp cars are good money and can always be broken for parts anyway (you'd get most of the money back).
fat80b said:
Norfolkandchance said:
Obviously I'm asking for the moon but I thought I'd see what the pistonheads brain can come up with.
Why Sprinting and or hillclimbs when cost is the ask? would be my question. By the time you have a suit, boots, helmet, hans and licence etc you have already blown a fair chunk of your budget which impacts your chance of being competitive.
Then there is the challenge that sprints themselves are more expensive (entry fees and tyres etc) and not necessarily close to you.
I'd check out the Association of Eastern Motor Clubs https://aemc.org.uk/ which has a decent calendar of events in the East.
and possibly join West Suffolk MC and speak to a few of those chaps. http://wsmc.co.uk/
Looking at the calendar, there is a sprint Championship in the East (that I didn't know about) https://aemc.org.uk/Sprint and you can see the previous winners / classes for ideas.
The other thing I'd consider is that there are other alternatives to sprinting that might actually suit you better.
Targa rallying is all new in the last few years and is designed to be low cost (no suit required etc) so you can be competitive in a £1K car with event entry fees at about £50.
Join the facebook Targa rallying group for more info.
I already have the suit and helmet as I've been doing it for years. That wasn't included in budget. I already compete in rounds of the AEMC championship, though I don't always register for the championship as I don't do enough rounds to compete.I do look at the results but they can be difficult to interpret since they generally have only the make and the CC. One 1800cc Striker can be very different from another. And I don't really know enough about the single seaters (Is a Mygail mk5 comparable to a Swift Mk7?) .
I'm also already a member of WSMC. I do targa rallies, including with WSMC, though I don't really enjoy the "round the cones" type events at Debden as much as more flowing ones else where.
The initial idea of a third car actually came out of doing the targas, and was thought-up between runs at Debden. The car I was using was too precious to me, too likely to get broken, and didn't have sufficient turning circle so I was originally thinking of a Micra or Ka to do the targas. But, it would need to be taxed, MOTd and insured which all add up. And it seemed a shame to pay out for a car that, while I would enjoy competing in it, I wouldn't particularly like to own.
I've done classic rallies too and lots of other grass roots motorsport (autotest, PCTs etc). But I like sprinting and hill climbing the best.
I do this ,
https://www.mx5challenge.co.uk/
though appreciate it may be a bit of travelling for you
An MX5 can be picked up for £1500, I would recommend a 2.5 SVT
it is fun, mix of sprints, hill and autosolo
https://www.mx5challenge.co.uk/
though appreciate it may be a bit of travelling for you
An MX5 can be picked up for £1500, I would recommend a 2.5 SVT
it is fun, mix of sprints, hill and autosolo
I've raced a few different cars at club level over the years, and other than a brief spell in arrive and drive I've always run them myself or with my Dad. For easy to work on, you can't beat a single seater; everything's accessible sat on a stool next to the car, rather than groping around underneath it, and you constantly get the feeling that all the parts were meant to be removed, replaced/repaired and re-fitted. I've just done a wheel bearing on my Formula Renault for the first time and it was the definition of simplicity. However, one issue with single seaters is the cost and availability of parts; often new cars are brought out for a limited time only and there's no dealer network or thriving road scene for parts; you just have to ring round people, or even have bits fabricated. Later single seaters tend to use carbon bodywork, which can be frighteningly expensive, so much so that it makes me think about selling my car on (going rate for an FR front wing and nose: £2k-£3k!!!). The other issue with single seaters is that despite being only 5'10" (177cm) and a keen runner (so pretty slim), I've genuinely never driven one where I am free to drive it in unimpinged - you often have to steer from your wrists, or contort your hand to change gear, or feet to operate the pedals. The immediacy and feedback from a single seater though is unrivalled - I've owned two Caterhams and they feel big, heavy and slow-witted in comparison.
I hope that's a fair appraisal. My vote would be for a Formula Ford, Westfield, or MR2/VX220. You may also be able to find something similar to a FF but not as commonly raced, and therefore cheaper, such as a Vauxhall Junior, Formula First etc.
I hope that's a fair appraisal. My vote would be for a Formula Ford, Westfield, or MR2/VX220. You may also be able to find something similar to a FF but not as commonly raced, and therefore cheaper, such as a Vauxhall Junior, Formula First etc.
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 26th February 16:06
Norfolkandchance said:
I'm also already a member of WSMC. I do targa rallies, including with WSMC, though I don't really enjoy the "round the cones" type events at Debden as much as more flowing ones else where.
I've done classic rallies too and lots of other grass roots motorsport (autotest, PCTs etc). But I like sprinting and hill climbing the best.
Looking through the results, I think we have competed at some of the same events. I find it really interesting that you prefer sprints and hillclimbs. I've done classic rallies too and lots of other grass roots motorsport (autotest, PCTs etc). But I like sprinting and hill climbing the best.
I have previously convinced myself that Targas and Stage Rallies are more fun than sprints and hillclimbs despite never having done either a sprint or a hillclimb.
Perhaps I should give one a go.
We may have met. I was last of the finishers at the last one, though I normally do less badly.
Our biggest problem at Debden is going the going the wrong side of a cone in the middle of a runway. In the classic rallies I have done in the past, the course generally followed a recognisable track and you only had to go the right way at junctions. I was pretty good at these - capable of top 3 finishes, though not consistently so, against faster cars. The runway was also very abrasive on my tyres.
The reason I wouldn't want to do any more targas in an everyday car is the wince-inducing thump from hitting potholes sideways on and the damage it must do. If you had a big crash in a sprint you would obviously be going very fast and cause a lot of damage, but otherwise you will be causing very little damage, just a little bit extra wear for going as fast as you can!
There are similarities between the two disciplines though - they are both exciting because you are going as fast as you dare early on, rather than building up and then honing over several laps in the way that a circuit racer would.
Our biggest problem at Debden is going the going the wrong side of a cone in the middle of a runway. In the classic rallies I have done in the past, the course generally followed a recognisable track and you only had to go the right way at junctions. I was pretty good at these - capable of top 3 finishes, though not consistently so, against faster cars. The runway was also very abrasive on my tyres.
The reason I wouldn't want to do any more targas in an everyday car is the wince-inducing thump from hitting potholes sideways on and the damage it must do. If you had a big crash in a sprint you would obviously be going very fast and cause a lot of damage, but otherwise you will be causing very little damage, just a little bit extra wear for going as fast as you can!
There are similarities between the two disciplines though - they are both exciting because you are going as fast as you dare early on, rather than building up and then honing over several laps in the way that a circuit racer would.
Hi
Been through this process, and in a similar thought process/method to what you're looking at.
Started with a couple of goes in my daily, then went to a Sylva Striker driven to the events, then on a trailer, then in a van, and now onto single seaters.
It's all do-able and quite a painless process too and you're ahead of the curve as you're already started at the events.
For your budget a competitive, even at regional level, single seater isn't really going to happen, due to the trailer cost but also the initial purchase is going to be a bit more for something that, realistically, will run towards the front of the class at clubman level - i.e. a Jedi, can be very competitive in the upto 1100's against much more modern (expensive!) kit.. but you'll not get a Jedi, in useful spec for £6k inc a trailer..
Plus - a hot hatch to slicks and wings is a chunky step, it can be done.. but something in the middle for a bit might make the steps easier to manage?
However your other thoughts - Striker, would work - a 6k budget would get you a decent Striker, that with a few little tweaks will run at the front(ish) of the up to 1700/1800/2000 (check in your region - think it's 1800..) road going specialist production class.
A similar spec'd Westfield will, generally, be more £'s for the same spec and arguably the Striker handles better (in both cases - assuming they're set up properly!) but one or the other is the choice for the class really.
'Sorting' a Striker, assuming it's got the basics of:-
'anything but a pinto or cvh' & Type 9, LSD would be nice but not essential & 13" rims are a must.
is a cheap DiY exercise that you can conduct as your progress with it.
Driving it to the gigs is certainly do-able, in a season or two as you develop the car you'll want to trailer it, once you've got the trailer you can develop it a bit more, then you can go 'do I develop it even more or swap it too..'
All in bite sized chunks and without spending a chunk of change in one go.
Hope this helps a bit
Been through this process, and in a similar thought process/method to what you're looking at.
Started with a couple of goes in my daily, then went to a Sylva Striker driven to the events, then on a trailer, then in a van, and now onto single seaters.
It's all do-able and quite a painless process too and you're ahead of the curve as you're already started at the events.
For your budget a competitive, even at regional level, single seater isn't really going to happen, due to the trailer cost but also the initial purchase is going to be a bit more for something that, realistically, will run towards the front of the class at clubman level - i.e. a Jedi, can be very competitive in the upto 1100's against much more modern (expensive!) kit.. but you'll not get a Jedi, in useful spec for £6k inc a trailer..
Plus - a hot hatch to slicks and wings is a chunky step, it can be done.. but something in the middle for a bit might make the steps easier to manage?
However your other thoughts - Striker, would work - a 6k budget would get you a decent Striker, that with a few little tweaks will run at the front(ish) of the up to 1700/1800/2000 (check in your region - think it's 1800..) road going specialist production class.
A similar spec'd Westfield will, generally, be more £'s for the same spec and arguably the Striker handles better (in both cases - assuming they're set up properly!) but one or the other is the choice for the class really.
'Sorting' a Striker, assuming it's got the basics of:-
'anything but a pinto or cvh' & Type 9, LSD would be nice but not essential & 13" rims are a must.
is a cheap DiY exercise that you can conduct as your progress with it.
Driving it to the gigs is certainly do-able, in a season or two as you develop the car you'll want to trailer it, once you've got the trailer you can develop it a bit more, then you can go 'do I develop it even more or swap it too..'
All in bite sized chunks and without spending a chunk of change in one go.
Hope this helps a bit
Norfolkandchance said:
We may have met. I was last of the finishers at the last one, though I normally do less badly.
Our biggest problem at Debden is going the going the wrong side of a cone in the middle of a runway.
Yes - Navigation is the key in Targa events. As navigator I messed up on the Stanta Targa over Christmas and sent the driver the wrong side of a (really badly drawn) cone and it cost us 2x20 seconds and the overall win. That was annoying.....Our biggest problem at Debden is going the going the wrong side of a cone in the middle of a runway.
Norfolkandchance said:
The reason I wouldn't want to do any more targas in an everyday car is the wince-inducing thump from hitting potholes sideways on and the damage it must do.
Fair. I think over the years, I have done some damage on Targas and Debden is one of the lumpiest round here. We did break the Diff mounting arm on an MX5 on a pothole at Debden on the last test of the day once which was annoying. In general, most of my "damage" has actually been blowing up engines though and I think this equally applies to both disciplines.
I'm now looking at trying a sprint after this thread so maybe I'll see you at one of those at some point.
Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff