Discussion
Morning All,
Just wanted to get a gauge as to peoples views on the new MSVR series that's being launched for 2019...
We've all seen the C1 endurance racing become somewhat of a hit with grids being filled rapidly. It was obvious that someone else would want to get in on the action and make some profit ;-) Mr Palmer of course!
Question is... What is the quality of racing likely to be like?
I've seen so much content from C1 racers where the cars are basically coming out of 1 event and need to be re-shelled because they are so badly damaged. I don't know about any of you out there, but in my years of racing Caterhams, i rarely come in with damage to my vehicle after an entire season. (perhaps the odd fibreglass wing)
So this is somewhat of a daunting prospect, not only financially, but more from safety grounds... i appreciate the cars are low value, so having a car effectively written off after 1 event... whilst frustrating... isn't the end of the world... it does pose the safety question of... if there's really so much damage per event... its only inevitable that large crashes will result... pushing a KA sideways through gravel... i can imagine it will roll relatively easily... Smart Cars come to mind...
I'll open the floor to peoples reaction, but i cannot be the only one out there worried about people treating this low-cost endurance racing as a follow the leader until the closing stages and then turn into a demolition derby to see who's car actually makes it to the finish first. (or finishes at all)
:-)
Just wanted to get a gauge as to peoples views on the new MSVR series that's being launched for 2019...
We've all seen the C1 endurance racing become somewhat of a hit with grids being filled rapidly. It was obvious that someone else would want to get in on the action and make some profit ;-) Mr Palmer of course!
Question is... What is the quality of racing likely to be like?
I've seen so much content from C1 racers where the cars are basically coming out of 1 event and need to be re-shelled because they are so badly damaged. I don't know about any of you out there, but in my years of racing Caterhams, i rarely come in with damage to my vehicle after an entire season. (perhaps the odd fibreglass wing)
So this is somewhat of a daunting prospect, not only financially, but more from safety grounds... i appreciate the cars are low value, so having a car effectively written off after 1 event... whilst frustrating... isn't the end of the world... it does pose the safety question of... if there's really so much damage per event... its only inevitable that large crashes will result... pushing a KA sideways through gravel... i can imagine it will roll relatively easily... Smart Cars come to mind...
I'll open the floor to peoples reaction, but i cannot be the only one out there worried about people treating this low-cost endurance racing as a follow the leader until the closing stages and then turn into a demolition derby to see who's car actually makes it to the finish first. (or finishes at all)
:-)
To be honest all the one make racing I've seen tends to be fairly damaging to the cars and the slower the cars the worse it appears to be. I personally don't see the KA series being any different but I'd love to be proved wrong.
The bigger issue for me with these types of series is that people really do think they can rock up with a bog standard car with a couple of mates and be at the sharp end of the grid. The guys who are going to be at the front will have mechanics so they can rest between stints in their motorhomes, catering staff to make sure they're fed properly and will have spent days testing not to mention having blueprinted the engine and fitted brand new components throughout the car.
Cynical? Perhaps, but I've seen it all too often. There's no such thing as budget motorsport if you want to be competitive.
The bigger issue for me with these types of series is that people really do think they can rock up with a bog standard car with a couple of mates and be at the sharp end of the grid. The guys who are going to be at the front will have mechanics so they can rest between stints in their motorhomes, catering staff to make sure they're fed properly and will have spent days testing not to mention having blueprinted the engine and fitted brand new components throughout the car.
Cynical? Perhaps, but I've seen it all too often. There's no such thing as budget motorsport if you want to be competitive.
I wasn't aware of this new KA series until this thread, but they really have just copied exactly the concept from the C1 series including most of the technical regulations word for word.
Unsurprisingly the C1 series has attracted a lot of novice drivers with no racing experience due it's low cost, especially the 24hr races, which in my opinion has been the root cause of the relatively high levels of contact. Racing at the front of the field has been very clean but towards the lower end of the grid there's been a higher amount than usual. As far as I'm aware there has been no incidences of deliberate contact between cars, and the organisers have been robust in dealing with racing incidents.
To Kraken's point, anyone who thinks they can turn up in any series without a properly prepared and developed car and be competitive is going to get a shock. Fortunately in single make racing like the C1 club series, where there's limited set -up adjustments and even brand new parts are low cost, then getting to that point isn't as expensive as in other series.
To be honest, without wanting to seem unkind to the organisers, I hope that the Enduro KA series is a failure. It's blatantly copied the idea of the C1 series to try and attract the exact same demographic. There's already too much dilution of series in UK club motorsport and I don't think there are enough competitors to sustain both series.
Unsurprisingly the C1 series has attracted a lot of novice drivers with no racing experience due it's low cost, especially the 24hr races, which in my opinion has been the root cause of the relatively high levels of contact. Racing at the front of the field has been very clean but towards the lower end of the grid there's been a higher amount than usual. As far as I'm aware there has been no incidences of deliberate contact between cars, and the organisers have been robust in dealing with racing incidents.
To Kraken's point, anyone who thinks they can turn up in any series without a properly prepared and developed car and be competitive is going to get a shock. Fortunately in single make racing like the C1 club series, where there's limited set -up adjustments and even brand new parts are low cost, then getting to that point isn't as expensive as in other series.
To be honest, without wanting to seem unkind to the organisers, I hope that the Enduro KA series is a failure. It's blatantly copied the idea of the C1 series to try and attract the exact same demographic. There's already too much dilution of series in UK club motorsport and I don't think there are enough competitors to sustain both series.
i'm in on this, car being built over winter.
I really wanted to do C1 in year one, but hedged my bets, see how it took off, year 2 I missed the bus, but after the first rocky race I turned off the idea because of all the damage and the rising costs in prepping a car, even buying a prepped car.
Race ready cars were 4-5k last year, now 6-7k, hmmm...
I really wanted to do C1 in year one, but hedged my bets, see how it took off, year 2 I missed the bus, but after the first rocky race I turned off the idea because of all the damage and the rising costs in prepping a car, even buying a prepped car.
Race ready cars were 4-5k last year, now 6-7k, hmmm...
ribiero said:
i'm in on this, car being built over winter.
I really wanted to do C1 in year one, but hedged my bets, see how it took off, year 2 I missed the bus, but after the first rocky race I turned off the idea because of all the damage and the rising costs in prepping a car, even buying a prepped car.
Race ready cars were 4-5k last year, now 6-7k, hmmm...
With all the similarities there are between the KA and C1 series, if the KAs were to reach the level of popularity that the C1s have and they organised a 24hr race (which attracts novices and people doing one off drives more so than the regular races), then I fully expect the numbers of racing incidents to be the same.I really wanted to do C1 in year one, but hedged my bets, see how it took off, year 2 I missed the bus, but after the first rocky race I turned off the idea because of all the damage and the rising costs in prepping a car, even buying a prepped car.
Race ready cars were 4-5k last year, now 6-7k, hmmm...
The cost of prepping a C1 hasn't changed, the only reason that race ready cars are being advertised for more now than they previously were is that there is more demand out there for them.
The RX8 series is similar in that the cars are effectively standard road cars just with the required safety equipment fitted, but I don't see it as being a direct competitor for C1s or KAs because it's not an endurance racing series and they're a sporty RWD car rather than a FWD super-mini.
However, I would say that the C1 is actually more suitable for racing than the RX8. The C1s with nothing other than some more durable brake pads can run flat out for 24hrs very reliably, which I'm certain would not be the case for an RX8.
However, I would say that the C1 is actually more suitable for racing than the RX8. The C1s with nothing other than some more durable brake pads can run flat out for 24hrs very reliably, which I'm certain would not be the case for an RX8.
Enduro Ka is just (another) attempt at jumping on the popularity of endurance racing in UK Club Motorsport. I can't see it working but if there are enough people willing to weld up a rusty (and they all pretty much are rusting through) Ford Ka then good luck to them. I used to deliver Pizza years ago in a 1.3 Ka and it was a cracking little thing. However just because it’s a different formula with a different club doesn’t mean the racing will be any better or any less damage free.
In regards to the copying of wording in regulations, this is nothing new, regs get copied all the time between clubs and championships etc, our were copied once and they actually forgot to take my name out as the contact!
In terms of damage, this is more of a one make thing rather than being specific to the C1 stuff! Because the series is so popular at the moment and receiving a lot of press people are more aware of it here than anywhere else! It is also in part (but not entirely related to) it being so accessible, a novice can pass their ARDS and jump straight into racing in the dark while it is pissing it down with rain, this will only lead to one thing in those instances! Then when it dries up and the sun re-emerges they start fighting every car at every corner with all their might and again, it will only end one way! Then you factor in Spa, where supposedly only experienced racers can go (Nat A as a minimum) and then you have a mix of UK C1s, Euro C1s and 2CVs and Hybrids and suddenly there is a lot of contact again, the experienced guys can get it wrong too. Although I have seen the onboards from some of the contact and I have to say again there is a sprint racing mindset in a lot of the drivers, they seem to fail to understand that the race isn't won in the first 23 hours, endurance racing is a war of attrition, even if you are slightly off the pace, if you can continue to circulate for the allotted time while others are collecting each other then you will enjoy a good result! The C1 guys know they have an issue with contact and are working on it, they aren’t idiots (far from it) but they will get it sorted I am sure, hopefully before their drivers get too fed up.
As for the RX8 stuff, I find this really perplexing, it’s a formula no one really asked for, it’s not even a formula but a class in a much bigger grid, plenty of people (some of them very smart) have looked at the RX8 in the past, if it worked, it would have been done by now, like the whole Z car thing, before all the background who-ha (somewhat awkward) it wasn't really working at all, why? Well because the cars don't work, the Z3 was slower than a Compact over a lap and more expensive, the Z4 was slower over a lap than a 330 (sadly another formula with potential going down) with and again more expensive. The RX8 is being pitched on a hope that people want to pick it up, I am not sure where they are looking to scoop people from. Just because it is accessible doesn’t mean it will be a hit. Then you have the new 116 series built on the foundation of an engine that is famous for detonating its chain guides/tensioners with an engine that is quite slow to wind up in a car that doesn’t really look attractive, but again it's enduro style, has some backing from a club and GAZ, they will get 10 cars I bet you then it will either become popular or wither off on year 2.
I am ranting now so I ‘ll stop here. Happy Friday folks
In regards to the copying of wording in regulations, this is nothing new, regs get copied all the time between clubs and championships etc, our were copied once and they actually forgot to take my name out as the contact!
In terms of damage, this is more of a one make thing rather than being specific to the C1 stuff! Because the series is so popular at the moment and receiving a lot of press people are more aware of it here than anywhere else! It is also in part (but not entirely related to) it being so accessible, a novice can pass their ARDS and jump straight into racing in the dark while it is pissing it down with rain, this will only lead to one thing in those instances! Then when it dries up and the sun re-emerges they start fighting every car at every corner with all their might and again, it will only end one way! Then you factor in Spa, where supposedly only experienced racers can go (Nat A as a minimum) and then you have a mix of UK C1s, Euro C1s and 2CVs and Hybrids and suddenly there is a lot of contact again, the experienced guys can get it wrong too. Although I have seen the onboards from some of the contact and I have to say again there is a sprint racing mindset in a lot of the drivers, they seem to fail to understand that the race isn't won in the first 23 hours, endurance racing is a war of attrition, even if you are slightly off the pace, if you can continue to circulate for the allotted time while others are collecting each other then you will enjoy a good result! The C1 guys know they have an issue with contact and are working on it, they aren’t idiots (far from it) but they will get it sorted I am sure, hopefully before their drivers get too fed up.
As for the RX8 stuff, I find this really perplexing, it’s a formula no one really asked for, it’s not even a formula but a class in a much bigger grid, plenty of people (some of them very smart) have looked at the RX8 in the past, if it worked, it would have been done by now, like the whole Z car thing, before all the background who-ha (somewhat awkward) it wasn't really working at all, why? Well because the cars don't work, the Z3 was slower than a Compact over a lap and more expensive, the Z4 was slower over a lap than a 330 (sadly another formula with potential going down) with and again more expensive. The RX8 is being pitched on a hope that people want to pick it up, I am not sure where they are looking to scoop people from. Just because it is accessible doesn’t mean it will be a hit. Then you have the new 116 series built on the foundation of an engine that is famous for detonating its chain guides/tensioners with an engine that is quite slow to wind up in a car that doesn’t really look attractive, but again it's enduro style, has some backing from a club and GAZ, they will get 10 cars I bet you then it will either become popular or wither off on year 2.
I am ranting now so I ‘ll stop here. Happy Friday folks
geeks said:
Sensible stuff.
I know it's not the first time techical regs have been copied, I've done it myself taking individual sections where I think that a reg is particularly well thought out, but the KA regs are the most blatant example I've come across.I've just remembered that there was an attempt to start an RX8 series a few years ago with the 750MC. Virtually identical concept to the new CSCC series with near standard cars and 40 minute races, and that all came to nothing.
geeks said:
As for the RX8 stuff, I find this really perplexing, it’s a formula no one really asked for, it’s not even a formula but a class in a much bigger grid, plenty of people (some of them very smart) have looked at the RX8 in the past, if it worked, it would have been done by now, like the whole Z car thing, before all the background who-ha (somewhat awkward) it wasn't really working at all, why? Well because the cars don't work, the Z3 was slower than a Compact over a lap and more expensive, the Z4 was slower over a lap than a 330 (sadly another formula with potential going down) with and again more expensive. The RX8 is being pitched on a hope that people want to pick it up, I am not sure where they are looking to scoop people from. Just because it is accessible doesn’t mean it will be a hit.
Of course the RX8 stuff is entirely different to the Endurance racing idea, because its not, er, endurance racing.I think the difference with the RX8 idea this time is that the cars are even cheaper to buy and build than before (to these regs), and there are still people who would like a RWD entry level series. I think that the CSCC concepts are also attractive to some. Yes there are MX5 and BMW Compact series that are already established but they are stand alone series, this is just a class within another series so it doesnt have to muster 16 plus cars to be a success.
I understand that there are 12 RX8 roll cage kits ordered already, so that implies that there is a reasonable appetite for the idea for the moment.
geeks said:
As for the RX8 stuff, I find this really perplexing, it’s a formula no one really asked for, it’s not even a formula but a class in a much bigger grid, plenty of people (some of them very smart) have looked at the RX8 in the past, if it worked, it would have been done by now. The RX8 is being pitched on a hope that people want to pick it up, I am not sure where they are looking to scoop people from. Just because it is accessible doesn’t mean it will be a hit.
I am ranting now so I ‘ll stop here. Happy Friday folks
Actually some drivers have asked for something similar, based on conversations we have had with existing and potential racers at shows. Plenty of individuals are time, space or money poor, but have the enthusiasm to try to compete and fulfil a dream. Sure, no-one asked me to create a class specifically for RX-8's, but thanks to the models well known foibles as a road car it has made the model depreciate massively. I am ranting now so I ‘ll stop here. Happy Friday folks
Why hasn't it been done before?
-I don't think the class would work if the rules followed the well trodden path of allowing upgrades to the exhaust, wheels, bushes, suspension, re-map etc. as the costs would increase to £8000+ and I personally wouldn't spend that much on an RX-8. But, by keeping the rules simple, my car ready to race costs less than £5000 and I drive it most days to work.
- Many series apply a co-efficient to rotary engines, making them uncompetitive.
- Five or ten years ago the cars were more money than they are now.
- The concept we are proposing is different from some others: road legal and road comfortable.
Sure, it's pitched in the hope that drivers want to take part. So far everyone who has driven or been a passenger in one has appeared to 'get it', with three cars being sold at MSD Live at the weekend and we believe a total of 16 cars now purchased (and we only put draft regs out last week)! The owners are from very mixed experiences, with a few novices, some trackdayers/speed eventers making the leap into racing, those making a return to racing and others who already race looking for something more cost effective.
As a class in an existing series there is no pressure on having to find numbers, the cars just provide a welcome addition to the other post year 2000 cars on the grid in the RSV Graphics New Millennium series.
There are some FAQ's within the series regs if it helps, if it's still not something you care for no problem.
https://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/new-millenn...
Cheers, Dave
clubracing said:
There's already too much dilution of series in UK club motorsport and I don't think there are enough competitors to sustain both series.
So true about dilution, but endurance racing is a lot of fun and helps split costs. Circuit fees are very high but the facilities are generally excellent nowadays. Personally I struggle to justify the entry fee plus cost of running the car for just myself, but for those karters coming from an endurance background (and they tend to be more mature and already in a team) it's a great option. The cars are too slow for my team mates liking unfortunately. It's probably the difference between racing or not for a lot of drivers. It was for me when I shared a car in roadsports back when it restarted.
Edited by bozla on Tuesday 6th November 20:17
Edited by bozla on Tuesday 6th November 20:22
Interesting replies here guys, should I assume that many people in this thread have racing experience/are active racers?
Myself and a few friends are planning on entering. We are exactly those people which appear to be the root cause of the damage issue - we'll take our ARDS and then go racing - that said, we have realistic expectations and are there to take our first group step into racing - something many of us have dreamed about for years in the hope of it becoming a broader, longer lived hobby.
Should be interesting to see how it develops but in reply to the OP - interested.
LJ
Myself and a few friends are planning on entering. We are exactly those people which appear to be the root cause of the damage issue - we'll take our ARDS and then go racing - that said, we have realistic expectations and are there to take our first group step into racing - something many of us have dreamed about for years in the hope of it becoming a broader, longer lived hobby.
Should be interesting to see how it develops but in reply to the OP - interested.
LJ
To be honest a lot of the people I see causing damage in these types of races aren't the guys out in their first couple of races. It always seems to me to be the ones with a few races under their belt whose spacial awareness isn't developed enough for their confidence and, more worryingly, very experienced drivers who think they have the right to every corner because they've been there, done it and got the t-shirt.
Could be way off base with that as I haven't been part of the paddock in any of those series but I've seen it ones I have been part of.
Could be way off base with that as I haven't been part of the paddock in any of those series but I've seen it ones I have been part of.
k would want to race a Ford KA? 
Having done 3 24hr races in the C1s, I'd say these are the problems:
1. Too many novices. There are a surprising number of people taking their ARDS and then immediately signing up for a 24 hour race as one of the first things they do. In the dark, wet conditions, for 2-3 hours at a time. Frankly, this isn't sensible, and the lack of some of the drivers awareness is genuinely scary;
2. The cars are 'cheap'. Inevitably, where costs are being shared, and the cars are cheap, folks aren't as worried as they should be about going for a 40:60 gap;
3. The cars are slow. Outside the top 10 the cars are much of a muchness, and so an overtake is hard won. This leads to more risk-taking I think.
I've raced for almost a decade, and I think I have seen the worst driving in the C1s. One team in particular seemed to be composed entirely of suicidal pricks who had no idea how to drive at all.
Obviously though, I'm signed up for the Silverstone 24hr
1. Too many novices. There are a surprising number of people taking their ARDS and then immediately signing up for a 24 hour race as one of the first things they do. In the dark, wet conditions, for 2-3 hours at a time. Frankly, this isn't sensible, and the lack of some of the drivers awareness is genuinely scary;
2. The cars are 'cheap'. Inevitably, where costs are being shared, and the cars are cheap, folks aren't as worried as they should be about going for a 40:60 gap;
3. The cars are slow. Outside the top 10 the cars are much of a muchness, and so an overtake is hard won. This leads to more risk-taking I think.
I've raced for almost a decade, and I think I have seen the worst driving in the C1s. One team in particular seemed to be composed entirely of suicidal pricks who had no idea how to drive at all.
Obviously though, I'm signed up for the Silverstone 24hr
Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff