Set-up on FWD standard road car - what to ask for
Discussion
I have an absolutely bog standard EP3 type R on 1A tyres. which I use from sprints, targa rallies and occasional trips to work. Most of my previous competition cars have been RWD or not really powerfully enough to have a big impact so I'm looking for FWD advice.
Although I can't fit any non standard parts I can adjust what is there. My local track-prep guy is always on at me to have him set it up.
He recons he can change the way it behaves quite a lot. This rings true - lots of EP3 owners have a "fast road set-up" done and claim it is great. Though some of these use non-standard components.
Anyway, he recons he can set it up to my preference. I just tell him what I want it to do and he'll set it up.
So, assuming this is true (I'm not 100% convinced) what would you ask for?
My first instinct was to have it "on the nose" with minimum understeer, gentle oversteer from turn-in, like Schumacher. But then I thought I might just be being all macho and that might not be fastest. Alonso seems pretty good at this driving thing and he has lots of understeer in his Renault days. Then I thought that I was being silly and that it is possible that what was fast in F1 might not translate to my Honda Civic.
Which is fastest? how much value would you put in predictability and safety?
Thanks
Although I can't fit any non standard parts I can adjust what is there. My local track-prep guy is always on at me to have him set it up.
He recons he can change the way it behaves quite a lot. This rings true - lots of EP3 owners have a "fast road set-up" done and claim it is great. Though some of these use non-standard components.
Anyway, he recons he can set it up to my preference. I just tell him what I want it to do and he'll set it up.
So, assuming this is true (I'm not 100% convinced) what would you ask for?
My first instinct was to have it "on the nose" with minimum understeer, gentle oversteer from turn-in, like Schumacher. But then I thought I might just be being all macho and that might not be fastest. Alonso seems pretty good at this driving thing and he has lots of understeer in his Renault days. Then I thought that I was being silly and that it is possible that what was fast in F1 might not translate to my Honda Civic.
Which is fastest? how much value would you put in predictability and safety?
Thanks
I can't comment about the best set-up for the EP3, but I do hillclimbs in sprints in the Standard Car class in a bog-standard Clio 172 Cup. The Cup understeers a bit more than I'd like, but I reckon it's better to trade off a little ultimate speed for confidence and predictability. If I used it for track days instead I'd try to adjust the balance, but I reckon its standard set-up is pretty good for trying to be quick out of the box at a speed event.
If you are not permitted to add a thicker rear anti-roll bar, you can try adding some toe-out at the rear of the car. This will get the car rotating on faster corners and shouldn't cause you too much drama as long as you are sensitive to the cars behaviour and have decent car control
Having researched the EP3 hillclimb project a lot, the fast road set up is meant to be the starting point. However, you won't be able to change the camber on the standard suspension. Not certain that change to the toe will be huge improvements.
I would make sure that the suspension is in the best condition it can be and have the best list 1a tyres that you can buy (and then play with the pressures).
I would make sure that the suspension is in the best condition it can be and have the best list 1a tyres that you can buy (and then play with the pressures).
I raced a Metro very successfully for five years and we reduced the rear negative camber below ideal. This obviously generates less grip, but due to it being FE/FWD you’d never actually achieve the balance to use that grip anyway. It made the car so driveable that the end result was a decrease in lap times. The lack of understeer meant you could get on the power earlier, and you spend longer on the straights than in the corners, so that paid dividends. Oversteer was never a problem, because in a FWD car accelerating always reduces that anyway; in fact my aim was to turn in with neutrality or even a little oversteer so I could get on the power nicely and the understeer that generated wasn’t a problem then. Toe wasn’t far off parallel if I remember rightly.
Each car is individual though, as is each driver - you need to find what works for you...
Each car is individual though, as is each driver - you need to find what works for you...
Id suggest that a set up for sprints and hillcilmbs would probably be the opposite of what you want for Targa.
The former needs smooth and efficient, minimal sliding about, the latter exactly the opposite, understeer is always your enemy on Targas, you really need it go go sideways at your bidding.
Also ground clearance would be an issue, less needed to promote flat cornering on sprints, more needed to get the suspension travel on Targas, accepting more body roll as a way of minimising understeer.
might be best somewhere in the middle..... rather like Honda built it!
The former needs smooth and efficient, minimal sliding about, the latter exactly the opposite, understeer is always your enemy on Targas, you really need it go go sideways at your bidding.
Also ground clearance would be an issue, less needed to promote flat cornering on sprints, more needed to get the suspension travel on Targas, accepting more body roll as a way of minimising understeer.
might be best somewhere in the middle..... rather like Honda built it!
How good are you? (genuine question and not meant to be offensive). I found the set up I needed changed as I got faster and was more comfortable being on the edge (and over it!!).
The quickest way to drive a FWD is with a rear end which wants to overtake you all the time on turn in. In simple terms the rear on a FWD is loose on the way in, the rear on a RWD is lose on the way out. The FWD setup only works if you are comfortable with this setup (most RWD drivers get very nervous when the rear goes as they can’t get it back if it lets go). There are very few situations you can’t power out of with FWD but it is counter intuitive to RWD drivers. With FWD when you get in to a slide, add power and relax the lock will 9/10 see you exit the corner without losing any time. To this end, make sure you are driving the car on the nose. You need to heal and tow + trail brake virtually every corner (and for corners with no gear change then left foot brake in to the corner). The track day technique of braking, coming off the brake and then turning in will only ever induce understeer in virtually every car. With a FWD you want to be trailing in to the apex to keep the weight transfer on to the front tyres giving them more grip than being neutral. Clearly as you apply lock, the pressure needs modulating to not overload the outside tyre. Shane Deegan is pretty good at it here: https://youtu.be/UzR0hRMH2mc (much better than me!)
Before fiddling with suspension… are tyre temps constant across all four corners immediately at the end of a session? Depending on the tyre, they want to be around 32 PSI. Usually you will have 2-3PSI less in the fronts than the rears when cold. Secondly, have you corner weighted? Makes a massive difference to balance. With a FWD car you will always have more weight on the front, just balance axels as best as possible.
For the setup in simple terms, get as much grip as you can on the front and then remove grip to the rear to find the right balance. This usually means making it as soft as possible until changes of direction become unmanageable. Start with 1 degree of tow in on the front (remembering it will come parallel when under heavy braking) and parallel on the rear. If the rears take a while to come up to temperature or you are doing very short runs, you could run a small amount of tow in on the rear also. You could start with 3.5 negative camber on the front and 1 degree on the rear, bringing the front camber down to more like 1.5 or 2 degrees when you are confident with trail braking, managing the rear and carrying speed in to a corner. I don’t know if your car has a diff either. If it does you wouldn’t need to run so little camber as you will have great power traction with relatively high camber rates. With a diff, set camber up using tyre temps across the surface. I would only start going tow out on the rear until you have tried everything else. It makes braking much harder and will mean you will be less confident on entry. The Citron Saxo in that video are all set up with a beam at the back so there was little they could change. Instead they all had 50PSI in the rear tyres on the oldest set of tyres they could find in order to find the right balance. Again it was a last resort and not recommended!
Finally, your quickest way to a good set up is to go along to the 750mc Civic Cup meeting armed with some tins, chat to the guy/girl who wins and offer tins for setup. Then do the same with second and third (if you have any left!) and compare notes. Usually the guys/girls at the front are running a similar set up and you can visually see any changes visibly when looking at the cars. Most will share their set up if they believe you are not a threat, but these things settings are hard won and wont be given out willy nilly. CSCC Tin Tops also has some Integras and Civics running so you could try there also.
“Fast road”? No idea, sorry.
The quickest way to drive a FWD is with a rear end which wants to overtake you all the time on turn in. In simple terms the rear on a FWD is loose on the way in, the rear on a RWD is lose on the way out. The FWD setup only works if you are comfortable with this setup (most RWD drivers get very nervous when the rear goes as they can’t get it back if it lets go). There are very few situations you can’t power out of with FWD but it is counter intuitive to RWD drivers. With FWD when you get in to a slide, add power and relax the lock will 9/10 see you exit the corner without losing any time. To this end, make sure you are driving the car on the nose. You need to heal and tow + trail brake virtually every corner (and for corners with no gear change then left foot brake in to the corner). The track day technique of braking, coming off the brake and then turning in will only ever induce understeer in virtually every car. With a FWD you want to be trailing in to the apex to keep the weight transfer on to the front tyres giving them more grip than being neutral. Clearly as you apply lock, the pressure needs modulating to not overload the outside tyre. Shane Deegan is pretty good at it here: https://youtu.be/UzR0hRMH2mc (much better than me!)
Before fiddling with suspension… are tyre temps constant across all four corners immediately at the end of a session? Depending on the tyre, they want to be around 32 PSI. Usually you will have 2-3PSI less in the fronts than the rears when cold. Secondly, have you corner weighted? Makes a massive difference to balance. With a FWD car you will always have more weight on the front, just balance axels as best as possible.
For the setup in simple terms, get as much grip as you can on the front and then remove grip to the rear to find the right balance. This usually means making it as soft as possible until changes of direction become unmanageable. Start with 1 degree of tow in on the front (remembering it will come parallel when under heavy braking) and parallel on the rear. If the rears take a while to come up to temperature or you are doing very short runs, you could run a small amount of tow in on the rear also. You could start with 3.5 negative camber on the front and 1 degree on the rear, bringing the front camber down to more like 1.5 or 2 degrees when you are confident with trail braking, managing the rear and carrying speed in to a corner. I don’t know if your car has a diff either. If it does you wouldn’t need to run so little camber as you will have great power traction with relatively high camber rates. With a diff, set camber up using tyre temps across the surface. I would only start going tow out on the rear until you have tried everything else. It makes braking much harder and will mean you will be less confident on entry. The Citron Saxo in that video are all set up with a beam at the back so there was little they could change. Instead they all had 50PSI in the rear tyres on the oldest set of tyres they could find in order to find the right balance. Again it was a last resort and not recommended!
Finally, your quickest way to a good set up is to go along to the 750mc Civic Cup meeting armed with some tins, chat to the guy/girl who wins and offer tins for setup. Then do the same with second and third (if you have any left!) and compare notes. Usually the guys/girls at the front are running a similar set up and you can visually see any changes visibly when looking at the cars. Most will share their set up if they believe you are not a threat, but these things settings are hard won and wont be given out willy nilly. CSCC Tin Tops also has some Integras and Civics running so you could try there also.
“Fast road”? No idea, sorry.
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