A Humbling Lesson in the Importance of Car Setup
Discussion
After I have been pounding around this year with a pretty base setup doing reasonably well we wanted to unlock some more speed in the car to try and close the gap to the front of the grid when it is dry. To this end I spent the day at Donington yesterday with Rob Whelden of Raw Motorsport helping me set the car up.
After a series of monsoon showers had soaked everyone and the track day heroes all packed up and went home there were about 10 race cars left and we enjoyed our very own private testing track. Rob jumped in the car, did 4 laps and feedback that the rear was too hard. We backed off slow speed and he went out again. 4 laps later, still to hard, took some more slow speed out. 4 laps, still to hard, removed anit-roll bar. 4 laps, need to adjust the brake pedal shaft length for better heal and tow. 4 laps later, car all good.
I get in for a go and experience some track driving nirvana. I cannot believe how much the car has been transformed. He only made some relatively small changes to the rear and it has transformed the drivability. I now have the car I have always wanted to drive. Lovely rotation on turn in helping point to the apex so much better and just the most superb power on four-wheel drifts out of corners. Think the longest around copse was 9 seconds or something ridiculous, no sawing at the wheel, just had the steering straight and balanced it on the throttle.
When not showboating, I was lapping 1.37s around the national circuit over 3 seconds faster the best time I did from the last race at Donnington (which was also torrential rain). I knew the car could be better but had no idea how much better it could be by getting someone who knows what they are doing behind the wheel. I always say to everyone who listens that instruction is worth twice as much as money spent on the car. It turns out that a good setup is worth so much more.
Finally, it is also very humbling watching someone sit in the same car as you, having only driven it for 8 laps and banging in 1.33s (to my previous 1.39.7) without really trying.
After a series of monsoon showers had soaked everyone and the track day heroes all packed up and went home there were about 10 race cars left and we enjoyed our very own private testing track. Rob jumped in the car, did 4 laps and feedback that the rear was too hard. We backed off slow speed and he went out again. 4 laps later, still to hard, took some more slow speed out. 4 laps, still to hard, removed anit-roll bar. 4 laps, need to adjust the brake pedal shaft length for better heal and tow. 4 laps later, car all good.
I get in for a go and experience some track driving nirvana. I cannot believe how much the car has been transformed. He only made some relatively small changes to the rear and it has transformed the drivability. I now have the car I have always wanted to drive. Lovely rotation on turn in helping point to the apex so much better and just the most superb power on four-wheel drifts out of corners. Think the longest around copse was 9 seconds or something ridiculous, no sawing at the wheel, just had the steering straight and balanced it on the throttle.
When not showboating, I was lapping 1.37s around the national circuit over 3 seconds faster the best time I did from the last race at Donnington (which was also torrential rain). I knew the car could be better but had no idea how much better it could be by getting someone who knows what they are doing behind the wheel. I always say to everyone who listens that instruction is worth twice as much as money spent on the car. It turns out that a good setup is worth so much more.
Finally, it is also very humbling watching someone sit in the same car as you, having only driven it for 8 laps and banging in 1.33s (to my previous 1.39.7) without really trying.
Here is a quick edit I did of some inadvertent drifting whilst trying to find the limit of grip....
http://youtu.be/jzo30NuhD-g
http://youtu.be/jzo30NuhD-g
Yes, the dampers are 4 way adjustable but we only touched the low speed compression and removed the anti roll bar. Rob diagnosed that the rear didn’t have enough grip so softening it up changed the balance rearward.
This is them: http://en.intraxracing.nl/producten/4-weg/
Pressures were and always are checked every time the car comes in and adjusted to suit.
This is them: http://en.intraxracing.nl/producten/4-weg/
Pressures were and always are checked every time the car comes in and adjusted to suit.
Thurbs said:
Here is a quick edit I did of some inadvertent drifting whilst trying to find the limit of grip....
http://youtu.be/jzo30NuhD-g
I just looked at your video. You need to have a long hard think and ask yourself why you think it is acceptable to have a lot of fun driving.http://youtu.be/jzo30NuhD-g
Well done, enjoyed your video.
I've had exactly the same experience. In my first racing car, a Metro, I was pretty average until I got a decent setup on the car (thanks to the generosity of someone in the know) and then instantly started winning my class, lap records etc. I then moved on to racing a Caterham, where with one setup I had ridiculous oversteer and then after some changes, ridiculous understeer. My best position was 20th out of 40 cars and I was really struggling. I then got a proper racing team to set the car up and instantly found a whole load of time. Setup does indeed make a huge difference, but the most annoying thing about it is there don't seem to be any decent books or courses out there on the subject, and even if there were, you need to be able to afford testing to get the right setup for you (because setup is individual). With my most recent car I finally bit the bullet and paid for a day with a team to set my car up, but for various reasons I won't go into I arrived at the test day without any sleep and absolutely nackered, and it then poured with rain for pretty much the whole day, and I can't afford to repeat the exercise!
This is definitely one area where club racing on a budget can be very frustrating.
This is definitely one area where club racing on a budget can be very frustrating.
RobM77 said:
for various reasons I won't go into I arrived at the test day without any sleep and absolutely knackered, and it then poured with rain for pretty much the whole day, and I can't afford to repeat the exercise!
This is definitely one area where club racing on a budget can be very frustrating.
I did a little racing...with all the traveling and prep I always seems to be bonkers tired by the time the racing startedThis is definitely one area where club racing on a budget can be very frustrating.
"no sleep, no food or drink, giant headache...now race!"
Kawasicki said:
RobM77 said:
for various reasons I won't go into I arrived at the test day without any sleep and absolutely knackered, and it then poured with rain for pretty much the whole day, and I can't afford to repeat the exercise!
This is definitely one area where club racing on a budget can be very frustrating.
I did a little racing...with all the traveling and prep I always seems to be bonkers tired by the time the racing startedThis is definitely one area where club racing on a budget can be very frustrating.
"no sleep, no food or drink, giant headache...now race!"
It's certainly very tiring doing it all by yourself, or even with a friend helping. I did a few races in 2009 with a team on an arrive and drive basis, and that was a completely different experience and much more enjoyable, but obviously too expensive to keep doing.Know what's frustrating?
This can even happen online!! You know the track like the back of your hand, are pushing like hell, are aware that you can't take it much faster then someone goes 3 seconds a lap faster at somewhere like Spa.
And you just know its all about setup.
A second a half maybe for talent and feel, but the rest is clever setup
This can even happen online!! You know the track like the back of your hand, are pushing like hell, are aware that you can't take it much faster then someone goes 3 seconds a lap faster at somewhere like Spa.
And you just know its all about setup.
A second a half maybe for talent and feel, but the rest is clever setup
chunder27 said:
Know what's frustrating?
This can even happen online!! You know the track like the back of your hand, are pushing like hell, are aware that you can't take it much faster then someone goes 3 seconds a lap faster at somewhere like Spa.
And you just know its all about setup.
A second a half maybe for talent and feel, but the rest is clever setup
This can even happen online!! You know the track like the back of your hand, are pushing like hell, are aware that you can't take it much faster then someone goes 3 seconds a lap faster at somewhere like Spa.
And you just know its all about setup.
A second a half maybe for talent and feel, but the rest is clever setup
I'm really keen on sims (although I can't race online) and yes, setup is a huge part of it, especially in the proper racing cars with a zillion things to change. That said, once I've set my fastest lap I often go back to the default setup to verify things and it's not normally more than 1-2 seconds a lap slower, perhaps 3-4 in the classics that come with huge ride heights as standard (which aren't needed for modern tracks).On another note, I do find it curious how often there's a progression on the leaderboards of, for example, a tenth of a second per driver up to 2nd place and then there's someone at the top 2 seconds quicker than 2nd place - I think it might be cheating when that happens.
The thing is with sims, unlike normal racing a weird and totally unintuitive setup can sometimes work. Especially on mods!!
I remember years ago racing a short oval mod, and the default setup was bang on, really close fields, all close together, then the designers changed it to a default that only worked for them so they could remain at the top all the time as they had tested it extensively. Instant dropout of interest
So doing something that would radically alter a cars behaviour for real like drastic castor or camber changes, in some games make them super quick but don't affect tyre wear or don't make the steering change, yet in real life would.
So, when I have done 500 laps rounds Spa in most cars and can sit at a certain time all day, when I see someone going 3 or even 5 seconds a lap quicker, I know it is not because they are that much faster, it is because they are a little bit faster but have found the key to the games physics engine and what makes the cars work.
This is the worst thing about buying a second hand race car, it is setup for the bloke that had it before you!! And he might like several different things to do, maybe didn't know he liked them so just adapted!
I think really if you do buy one, make sure it's straight, within tolerances in terms of geometry and not overly biased, check the mechanicals, brakes, etc and try and establish a baseline from there.
I remember years ago racing a short oval mod, and the default setup was bang on, really close fields, all close together, then the designers changed it to a default that only worked for them so they could remain at the top all the time as they had tested it extensively. Instant dropout of interest
So doing something that would radically alter a cars behaviour for real like drastic castor or camber changes, in some games make them super quick but don't affect tyre wear or don't make the steering change, yet in real life would.
So, when I have done 500 laps rounds Spa in most cars and can sit at a certain time all day, when I see someone going 3 or even 5 seconds a lap quicker, I know it is not because they are that much faster, it is because they are a little bit faster but have found the key to the games physics engine and what makes the cars work.
This is the worst thing about buying a second hand race car, it is setup for the bloke that had it before you!! And he might like several different things to do, maybe didn't know he liked them so just adapted!
I think really if you do buy one, make sure it's straight, within tolerances in terms of geometry and not overly biased, check the mechanicals, brakes, etc and try and establish a baseline from there.
We had a car that had won multiple championships with the previous owner .
After a few races at the local circuits the driver commented on how unbalanced the car felt .
A day spent with the scales and gauges resulted in lap times that were 1.5 and 2.5sec quicker than the previous best for the car .
We also disconnected the front ARB and it transformed the feel of the car .
An easy check of tyre temps across the width of tyres gives a good indication if the set up is working to its best .
It is surprising how many club racers set suspension to be as hard as possible on saloon and sports cars .
After a few races at the local circuits the driver commented on how unbalanced the car felt .
A day spent with the scales and gauges resulted in lap times that were 1.5 and 2.5sec quicker than the previous best for the car .
We also disconnected the front ARB and it transformed the feel of the car .
An easy check of tyre temps across the width of tyres gives a good indication if the set up is working to its best .
It is surprising how many club racers set suspension to be as hard as possible on saloon and sports cars .
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