Use of HANS/FHR
Discussion
I officiated at a stage rally last weekend. This year, most people in motor sport now have to wear and use a HANS device or similar (FHR), and this was the first event I had been on where that has been true. It became painfully obvious that many drivers and co-drivers were in the same boat.
My Rescue crew leader first noticed that a co-driver's helmet strap was not attached to his HANS, so we had a look at the next car's crew - and their straps were undone too! And another, and another, until we asked the Stage Commander to help, as we were holding the stage up. We were on Stage 3, not the very first, and by the time the field had gone through, we had found at least 20% of the crews weren't using their FHRs correctly. I'm sure that this was due to inexperience, as this was first rally of the year for most of them.
Drivers of 'historic' cars are not obliged to wear a HANS, pre-1968 for rallies, pre-1977 for circuits, Sprints and Hill Climbs (https://www.msauk.or...fhrguidance.pdf) but even so, I would urge you to do so. And I would be even more eager that you wear it properly! Get someone to check it for you, before you get in, and then after you are seated, at least for your first event!
John
My Rescue crew leader first noticed that a co-driver's helmet strap was not attached to his HANS, so we had a look at the next car's crew - and their straps were undone too! And another, and another, until we asked the Stage Commander to help, as we were holding the stage up. We were on Stage 3, not the very first, and by the time the field had gone through, we had found at least 20% of the crews weren't using their FHRs correctly. I'm sure that this was due to inexperience, as this was first rally of the year for most of them.
Drivers of 'historic' cars are not obliged to wear a HANS, pre-1968 for rallies, pre-1977 for circuits, Sprints and Hill Climbs (https://www.msauk.or...fhrguidance.pdf) but even so, I would urge you to do so. And I would be even more eager that you wear it properly! Get someone to check it for you, before you get in, and then after you are seated, at least for your first event!
John
I've avoided the HANS device for the last few years but it looks as if my freedom of choice is now over. Although my old Escort is 1973 vintage and may be technically exempt the championship bods favour FHR. My immaculate Sparco helmet is now outlawed and the angle of my harness belts don't suit FHR. Motor racing requires plenty of enthusiasm these days.
I don't see what all the fuss is about, it could safe you life / prevent serious injuries. Would be the best £250 spent if you needed it and it did its job.
other things in race car that could save your life / prevent serious injuries: with estimate costs apointed for budget end of the scale.
Roll cage - £1000
Helmet - £150
Fireproof overalls gloves etc £250
4-6 point harness £100
Bucket Seat - £200
Fire Extinguisher - £100
I can't believe its an issue for anyone?
other things in race car that could save your life / prevent serious injuries: with estimate costs apointed for budget end of the scale.
Roll cage - £1000
Helmet - £150
Fireproof overalls gloves etc £250
4-6 point harness £100
Bucket Seat - £200
Fire Extinguisher - £100
I can't believe its an issue for anyone?
I can't see how a four point harness will work properly with HANS when you start to submarine,which unless you have a large food/beer baby to stop you will inevitably happen.
The 2cv racing club have already banned the use of four point harnesses for this reason following an incident at Oulton last year.
The 2cv racing club have already banned the use of four point harnesses for this reason following an incident at Oulton last year.
You'd be insane surely to use a 4 pointer?
Having had a head on into the barriers which was hard enough to break bones, I'm very happy to have a HANS to protect my neck (which it did). I can understand the pain of getting it to work especially in historics, but I am much happier with one.
Bert
Having had a head on into the barriers which was hard enough to break bones, I'm very happy to have a HANS to protect my neck (which it did). I can understand the pain of getting it to work especially in historics, but I am much happier with one.
Bert
Schroth offer a 4 point with anti submarine technology that can be used with HANS. I'm thinking of a couple for my Exige. Scroll down, the top one has a road legal buckle:
https://www.schrothracing.com/competition/profi-as...
https://www.schrothracing.com/competition/profi-as...
eastlmark said:
Can imagine Hans a pain for rally co drivers (as in OP). Must restrict looking down at pace notes and also side to side, dealing with time cards etc out the window.
Good point. I thought that it would be horrible when driving, but I've never noticed. I wonder how inconvenient it actually is?eastlmark said:
Can imagine Hans a pain for rally co drivers (as in OP). Must restrict looking down at pace notes and also side to side, dealing with time cards etc out the window.
This week I visited my excellent local motorsport supplier (Road&Stage, Morecambe) to try on some FHR. I was surprised how little a properly adjusted, classic HANS restricted flexion of the neck (bending forwards), while a Hybrid was much more restrictive. It's 'hyperflexion' of the neck that an FHR is supposed to protect you from, but I was reassured by the explanation that in a frontal impact, your body and shoulders will go forward as well. They will eventually be restricted by the harness as it reaches the limit of stretch, but without the FHR, your head goes further on into 'hyperflexion'. An FHR will prevent this.Gary Milgrom, VP at HANS has posted this comparison picture https://www.flickr.com/photos/14443672@N03/2182360... which shows better than words what I'm trying to explain.
My plan is to take my race car (road legal) to R&S and try the various devices on while in my race seat and strapped in.
As mentioned above older cars' drivers are exempt, but most drivers don't have a choice. If you have to buy this expensive kit, best to use it properly!
John
Edited by tapkaJohnD on Saturday 20th February 09:02
jeffw said:
So what injuries did both occupants receive ?Both seemed fit and well afterwards. And therein lies the debate.
Where is the history of accidents where people have received serious injuries at a local level through lack of FHR, than now warrants making it mandatory...except only mandatory in some classes, some vehicle ages etc ?
I suspect there is very little real evidence. It isnt to say FHR will not help in some instances, of course it can do.
But comments like "I can make myself safer but refuse to do so" are also silly.....so would you also encourage driving slower ? That may also make things safer ? Perhaps removing all bends from courses...that would make things safer. Only allow racing to take part where there is a minimum of 200ft run off around the entire track...that would make things safer. Only allow racing on dry sunny days...that would make things safer.
I've been taking part in various motorsport for over 20 years....as I've never crashed I dont feel FHR makes me safer, as I've no history of being unsafe in the first place.
So is FHR making me safer ? I dont really see how.
And given some of the most dangerous cars on the scene are the ancient vehicles...which dont have FHR enforced..where is the logic in that ? They sit with their noses 2" from a huge steel steering wheel in cars that dont handle or brake etc. Why only some classes or indeed ages of vehicle...even for same model..yet some must use FHR, others not ?
None of it makes any sense.
Now if MSA were serious about safety...they'd maybe ensure removal of all fences around hills, rally venues etc. Fence posts that have killed people when vehicles crash into them. You know something with real solid evidence of danger. But clearly they arent serious and the FHR suppliers must be giving MSA backhanders somewhere along the lines
stevieturbo said:
I've been taking part in various motorsport for over 20 years....as I've never crashed I dont feel FHR makes me safer, as I've no history of being unsafe in the first place.
I'm really crap at most physical sports. A few years ago, I found myself in New York for a year. I found Central Park to be a wonderful place. Now most people just strap on a pair of rollerblades and go for it. Not me. I had to take classes to get anywhere. I had a wonderful teacher called Linda and she had lots of daft phrases, a lot including the word discombobulate.But one of the daft things she said was never skate when you are smug.
Just because you've never crashed, doesn't mean you won't crash. I have crashed. Going head-on into the armco is painful. That's when you think, I'm glad I was wearing a FHR device.
Don't knock it, it might save your life.
Bert
BertBert said:
I'm really crap at most physical sports. A few years ago, I found myself in New York for a year. I found Central Park to be a wonderful place. Now most people just strap on a pair of rollerblades and go for it. Not me. I had to take classes to get anywhere. I had a wonderful teacher called Linda and she had lots of daft phrases, a lot including the word discombobulate.
But one of the daft things she said was never skate when you are smug.
Just because you've never crashed, doesn't mean you won't crash. I have crashed. Going head-on into the armco is painful. That's when you think, I'm glad I was wearing a FHR device.
Don't knock it, it might save your life.
Bert
How many have died through lack of FHR ? Or even how many seriously injured through lack of it ?But one of the daft things she said was never skate when you are smug.
Just because you've never crashed, doesn't mean you won't crash. I have crashed. Going head-on into the armco is painful. That's when you think, I'm glad I was wearing a FHR device.
Don't knock it, it might save your life.
Bert
I'm not knocking them., I'm knocking the fact MSA are making it mandatory.....well almost mandatory because it's only mandatory in some vehicles...and perhaps some of the safer vehicles, whilst leaving out more dangerous ones.
If there was overwhelming evidence of injuries...or serious injuries or indeed deaths then absolutely make it mandatory across the board.
That hasnt happened. At all.
It strikes me as very very strange, with some other agenda at play.
Have a read of this and you'll understand why the change is happening now.
https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/20...
The debate about the effectiveness of HANS happened about 15 years ago... there are many cases where the use of HANS may have resulted in a different outcome, and several in UK club motorsport.
And just to add that the only drivers not required to use HANS are those competing in roadgoing. I think the reason is because many don't use a four point harness, so the MSA can't make it mandatory. However, it's obviously strongly recommended if a 4 point harness is used (and that's what I would do).
https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/20...
The debate about the effectiveness of HANS happened about 15 years ago... there are many cases where the use of HANS may have resulted in a different outcome, and several in UK club motorsport.
And just to add that the only drivers not required to use HANS are those competing in roadgoing. I think the reason is because many don't use a four point harness, so the MSA can't make it mandatory. However, it's obviously strongly recommended if a 4 point harness is used (and that's what I would do).
Edited by df76 on Sunday 21st February 08:07
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