Stupid blydi tyre lists

[Vocal Minority]

Hi all

This is getting all really bloody confusing.

I have bought a car which is shod on Yokohama A048s - 235/45/R17 - They are E marked.

However, looking at list 1B the only versions permitted are:

AO48-R (OE
Fitments marked
LTS in sizes
195/50/15 &
225/45/17 only)

Whatever the hell that means....

Anyway - its pretty clearly not my tyre whatever it is - but mine is E marked, and isn't this all about e-marks?

Anyone have any thoughts? Anyone a scrutineer?

I just need to get in touch with the MSA don't I?

[AWRacing]

Look at list 1c, A048r listed on there.
The regs for the series you're entering will state which list you can choose from.

[Vocal Minority]

I have sort of accepted that they are on 1c - i just want to know if they are e-marked, why?

(I need 1A and 1B rather unsurprisingly hence my be-grudgment)

[Dan Friel]

They need to be E marked and on the list. The rules haven't chnaged, just the tyres on the lists. Only Lotus' (LTS) which have A048r's as standard fitment can continue to use them.

[Redlake27]

My understanding is that :

List 1A - 'Everyday road tyres'
List 1B - 'Track Day tyres that comply with all latest road regulations - including the Tyre Labelling rules on rolling resistance, wet grip and noise'
List 1C - 'Track Day tyres that can still be e-marked but are marked as 'designed for competition use' . These don't have to comply with the tyre labelling rules on wet/noise/economy.


Typically, a list 1B would have OE type track tyres on there - the sort of tyres that would be fitted to a GT3RS or Exige as standard.

1C would have the more extreme tyres.


Now here's the confusing bit. It isn't illegal to use an E-Marked 1C tyre on the road. But it is illegal for a tyre dealer to sell it to you as a road tyre if it doesn't have the wet grip/resistance/noise label.

So, unless a better qualified expert can correct me, I would interpret that as it is OK to buy a list 1C tyre mail order or at a circuit (ie: Anywhere that Mr Fast Fitter can't knowingly see you drive it onto the road) and use it on road and track - as long as it is E-Marked.

[Vocal Minority]

Riiiiight - I understand now!

That's a bit of a bugger, but there we go.

[jeffw]

There are some F rated tyres which appear in List 1C (some versions of the Avon ZZR are F rated for efficiency but are in 1C) and some G rated tyres in 1B (R888 SG and GGG are G rated).

So it isn't clear cut and it is a pain in the rear...as I have to ditch two sets of perfectly good (and road legal) tyres.

[Dan Friel]

jeffw said:

I have to ditch two sets of perfectly good (and road legal) tyres.

Suspect that you might get a good result on eBay..

[jeffw]

I doubt A24 compound ZZRs have a ready market Dan.

[stevieturbo]

By all means contact the MSA and complain, the rules are bloody stupid.

Disallowing perfectly road legal E marked tyres from road legal classes. Whoever dreamt the rules up must be a politician !

[Oilchange]

What size?

jeffw said:

I doubt A24 compound ZZRs have a ready market Dan.

[Redlake27]

stevieturbo said:

By all means contact the MSA and complain, the rules are bloody stupid.

Disallowing perfectly road legal E marked tyres from road legal classes. Whoever dreamt the rules up must be a politician !

I don't think it is the MSA's fault. All the championship organiser has to do is change the series rules to allow 1c tyres - most of which were formerly 1b anyway.

[jeffw]

They can't do that, the MSA are only allowing List 1C tyres in a race class and not road-going.

[jeffw]

Oilchange said:

What size?

jeffw said:

I doubt A24 compound ZZRs have a ready market Dan.

A24 compound ZZRs only came in 185/60 13 and 215/50 13. I have a set of A24 compound and a set of Mediums (A64) neither of which are legal for road-going sprinting next year.

[Redlake27]

stevieturbo said:

By all means contact the MSA and complain, the rules are bloody stupid.

Disallowing perfectly road legal E marked tyres from road legal classes. Whoever dreamt the rules up must be a politician !

I don't think it is the MSA's fault. All the championship organiser has to do is change the series rules to allow 1c tyres - most of which were formerly 1b anyway.

[carl_w]

Redlake27 said:

stevieturbo said:

By all means contact the MSA and complain, the rules are bloody stupid.

Disallowing perfectly road legal E marked tyres from road legal classes. Whoever dreamt the rules up must be a politician !

I don't think it is the MSA's fault. All the championship organiser has to do is change the series rules to allow 1c tyres - most of which were formerly 1b anyway.

I'm not sure they can do that. The Sprints section of the 2016 blue book says that for roadgoing only List 1A or 1B can be used (S 11.6.2). I think series organizers are allowed to put more stringent rules in place (e.g. only List 1A) because the rule is still being met, but they can't relax the rules because then that rule is being broken.

[Dan Friel]

Correct. List 1c has no place in road going speed classes, can only be used in mod prod where tyres are free.

[steve-V8s]

There has been much discussion of the tyre lists on other forums but we should not loose track of the route cause of the issue. Somewhere within the workings of the European rule making machine some presumably very well paid people have decided that tyres that work well are to be outlawed to save the planet.

Initially it is rubber that falls into class G, which as I understand it is very soft and grippy (or most of last years list 1b), they have already declared that next to be outlawed is class F which it seems to me is almost all of the current list b. It would then be no surprise if E was the next to go which is most of the decent tyres that you would put on a Diesel estate.

You can argue all you like about which list which tyres are on for 2016 however in a few years time if the Eurocrats have their way there will only be hard compound road tyres that last a million miles and offer very little grip and race tyres, (assuming we are still allowed to race)

Plainly the way the lists have been presented and the odd error and has made things confusing but if you are at all familiar with the Blue Book you will entirely used to the contradiction, confusion and mystery that exists within.

I seems just a bit unfair to completely blame the MSA when they are just trying to cope with what the “Wise Men Of Europe” have decreed.

[stevieturbo]

steve-V8s said:

There has been much discussion of the tyre lists on other forums but we should not loose track of the route cause of the issue. Somewhere within the workings of the European rule making machine some presumably very well paid people have decided that tyres that work well are to be outlawed to save the planet.

Initially it is rubber that falls into class G, which as I understand it is very soft and grippy (or most of last years list 1b), they have already declared that next to be outlawed is class F which it seems to me is almost all of the current list b. It would then be no surprise if E was the next to go which is most of the decent tyres that you would put on a Diesel estate.

You can argue all you like about which list which tyres are on for 2016 however in a few years time if the Eurocrats have their way there will only be hard compound road tyres that last a million miles and offer very little grip and race tyres, (assuming we are still allowed to race)

Plainly the way the lists have been presented and the odd error and has made things confusing but if you are at all familiar with the Blue Book you will entirely used to the contradiction, confusion and mystery that exists within.

I seems just a bit unfair to completely blame the MSA when they are just trying to cope with what the “Wise Men Of Europe” have decreed.

The root cause for MSA lists is the MSA.

E marked tyres are legal for road use in the UK, period.

Any stickers, numbers, anything else are irrelevant. The MSA have deliberately chose to exclude road legal E marked tyres from many classes, including those that pretend to allow road legal tyres...except they only allow some road legal tyres, presumably from companies who offer some sort of backhand money deal to members of the MSA

The whole thing could be resolved in one fell swoop. E-marked tyres can be used for any category than needs road legal tyres.

Job done, no lists, no hassle, no grief for scrutineers having to check etc etc

But as you say, the EU labelling aspect is also a farce, tackling "issues" that never were or ever will be an issue that needs even looked at, just so they can keep aholes in a job dreaming up[ stupid legislation so they can pat themselves on the back after doing so.
Then when they attach it to campaigns about saving lives, saving the planet etc etc....so many brainwashed fools think this is wonderful and the vicious circle continues with even more idiots dreaming up even dumber legislation !