Looking for some Historic/Classic racing advice
Discussion
So, after a few years of racing karts, doing trackdays, but really wanting to race cars I finally started this year (in Funcup) 
However, I've always wanted to both own a classic car (I don't have one in the "fleet" yet), and have also always wanted to race classics. I really just love the idea of racing cars that aren't the absolute cutting edge of technology, but are more about working with the car, sliding around a bit and having a lot of fun, while of course also being competitive. That said, I have to say the fact that people will be a bit more careful with their cars, rather than just going for a crazy dive down the inside, also appeals. I much rather the idea of endurance races as well, and that seems more prevalent within historic motorsport.
So, I'm wanting to find out some details about what might actually be possible. There is one problem though, I don't really have the space or ability to do any of the maintenance or race support myself, so am wanting to be able to own the car, but then pay a team to maintain it, transport it, and support me at the track for the race weekends.
Does anyone have any particular recommendations on things I should look at? I realise this is a very open question, but i'm not overly tied to any way of doing things, so just wanting to see what people recommend.
Also, before I really commit to anything I'd love to pay for a seat in another car for a race or two, is there anywhere you would recommend to look for people looking for drivers to share the cost of an endurance race?
Thanks for any advice!
However, I've always wanted to both own a classic car (I don't have one in the "fleet" yet), and have also always wanted to race classics. I really just love the idea of racing cars that aren't the absolute cutting edge of technology, but are more about working with the car, sliding around a bit and having a lot of fun, while of course also being competitive. That said, I have to say the fact that people will be a bit more careful with their cars, rather than just going for a crazy dive down the inside, also appeals. I much rather the idea of endurance races as well, and that seems more prevalent within historic motorsport.
So, I'm wanting to find out some details about what might actually be possible. There is one problem though, I don't really have the space or ability to do any of the maintenance or race support myself, so am wanting to be able to own the car, but then pay a team to maintain it, transport it, and support me at the track for the race weekends.
Does anyone have any particular recommendations on things I should look at? I realise this is a very open question, but i'm not overly tied to any way of doing things, so just wanting to see what people recommend.
Also, before I really commit to anything I'd love to pay for a seat in another car for a race or two, is there anywhere you would recommend to look for people looking for drivers to share the cost of an endurance race?
Thanks for any advice!
I would certainly be looking for a pre 66 FIA papered car as that gives access to tons of races plus the long distance stuff
With your budget the obvious choice is MGB and well prepared and driven the go v well and tend to be fairly reliable
The other car that springs to mind is Mini Cooper but you would probably need to find motivated seller
On the prep front I have had teams prep and run my cars and you need to be v careful in choosing the right ones but if they are going to prep car and run it at the circuit it can get v expensive especially if you are in Europe
What I have done for the last few years is to find a co driver who preps and runs the car in exchange for co driving
This seems a fairly common arrangement in historics and works v well
Can I recommend the Old Timer GP at the ring once you get the car
Have fun
With your budget the obvious choice is MGB and well prepared and driven the go v well and tend to be fairly reliable
The other car that springs to mind is Mini Cooper but you would probably need to find motivated seller
On the prep front I have had teams prep and run my cars and you need to be v careful in choosing the right ones but if they are going to prep car and run it at the circuit it can get v expensive especially if you are in Europe
What I have done for the last few years is to find a co driver who preps and runs the car in exchange for co driving
This seems a fairly common arrangement in historics and works v well
Can I recommend the Old Timer GP at the ring once you get the car
Have fun
There's Classic racing and there's Classic racing! What I mean by that is that there is FIA type stuff where homologation and eligibility is (relatively) strict and supposed to be based on what was eligible in the day and there there is national club level historic/ classic racing where mods are often allowed.
I'm not overly familiar with all the nuances of true Classic racing ( eg Spa 6 hours, HSCC, Goodwood type stuff) but I have raced in CSCC for a while. They have a "Swinging Sixties" series for cars from ....the Sixties ....and that may be worth a look. (Other clubs/ series are available!).
Anything that is FIA spec tends to be very expensive and your £30k car budget will buy you an MGB which is a good choice because there are lots of spare and knowledge available to run them. An MGB for CSCC Swinging Sixties will be more modded and probably be quicker but may cost about £10-20k.
As an aside, CSCC run a Classic K series where cars run to "Appendix K" regs is making them eligible for FIA series! Most CSCC races are 40 mins long for 1 or 2 drivers and so you can share costs, Classic K races are 1 hour for 1 or 2 drivers.
If it was me, I'd decide whether I wanted to race in "proper" historic/ classic racing or whether something like CSCC Swinging Sixties with modified cars was acceptable, that dictates the car choice.
Perhaps you also need to have a think about what era interests you. Again true historic racing tends to be pre 66 i guess, but plenty of clubs run non FIA series, which can be considered as historic / classic for pre 1981, pre 1990, pre 1990, Group A etc. personally I derive massive pleasure form racing a Cheap and cheerful Porsche 924S in CSCC Future Classics (1970-1990).
Also remember that there are historic series for sports cars and single seaters and your budget will easily get you in to classic Formula Ford, or Formula Ford 2000, or Historic Sports 2000 or Classic Clubmans (the latter being one of the cheapest ways of getting in to really quick racing cars that can be used in their own series or can embarrass F5000, F2 and
F Atlantic cars in the right circumstances in the HSCC Derek Bell series)
Go to a HSCC meeting and a CSCC meeting (and others) and ask questions in the paddock. Most people will be very happy to help. I'd also suggest that you look at, and ask questions, in the historic racing section of 10-Tenths forum as there are probably way more historic racers there than on here.
I'm not overly familiar with all the nuances of true Classic racing ( eg Spa 6 hours, HSCC, Goodwood type stuff) but I have raced in CSCC for a while. They have a "Swinging Sixties" series for cars from ....the Sixties ....and that may be worth a look. (Other clubs/ series are available!).
Anything that is FIA spec tends to be very expensive and your £30k car budget will buy you an MGB which is a good choice because there are lots of spare and knowledge available to run them. An MGB for CSCC Swinging Sixties will be more modded and probably be quicker but may cost about £10-20k.
As an aside, CSCC run a Classic K series where cars run to "Appendix K" regs is making them eligible for FIA series! Most CSCC races are 40 mins long for 1 or 2 drivers and so you can share costs, Classic K races are 1 hour for 1 or 2 drivers.
If it was me, I'd decide whether I wanted to race in "proper" historic/ classic racing or whether something like CSCC Swinging Sixties with modified cars was acceptable, that dictates the car choice.
Perhaps you also need to have a think about what era interests you. Again true historic racing tends to be pre 66 i guess, but plenty of clubs run non FIA series, which can be considered as historic / classic for pre 1981, pre 1990, pre 1990, Group A etc. personally I derive massive pleasure form racing a Cheap and cheerful Porsche 924S in CSCC Future Classics (1970-1990).
Also remember that there are historic series for sports cars and single seaters and your budget will easily get you in to classic Formula Ford, or Formula Ford 2000, or Historic Sports 2000 or Classic Clubmans (the latter being one of the cheapest ways of getting in to really quick racing cars that can be used in their own series or can embarrass F5000, F2 and
F Atlantic cars in the right circumstances in the HSCC Derek Bell series)
Go to a HSCC meeting and a CSCC meeting (and others) and ask questions in the paddock. Most people will be very happy to help. I'd also suggest that you look at, and ask questions, in the historic racing section of 10-Tenths forum as there are probably way more historic racers there than on here.
Edited by andy97 on Saturday 12th September 19:49
This year, I've raced with the HSCC in the 70's road sports series. Some very fast classics at the front, and good clean racing all down the grid.
The grid has lotus elans, TVRs , MG's as well as Alfa coupes, and a couple of Lancias.
There is a 50's/ 60's series very similar for older cars, plus there is the pre 66 historic touring cars (mini coopers , imps, Anglia's, lotus cortinas, Mustangs)
Then there is a whole host of historic single seater racing series.
The events have been first rate, including Oulton Gold Cup, Croft Nostalgia, Cadwell Wolds, excellently organised but friendly and fun at the same time.
As Andy stated, there are levels of 'classic' racing, but the HSCC caters for a broad range of cars and levels of prep. I'd suggest taking a look at the website, and attending the Silverstone event in October and have a look around.
My 70's 'classic' is a sub £10k racer - I'm biased, but with your budget I'd fill my garage with an Alfa 'Bertone' coupe.
The grid has lotus elans, TVRs , MG's as well as Alfa coupes, and a couple of Lancias.
There is a 50's/ 60's series very similar for older cars, plus there is the pre 66 historic touring cars (mini coopers , imps, Anglia's, lotus cortinas, Mustangs)
Then there is a whole host of historic single seater racing series.
The events have been first rate, including Oulton Gold Cup, Croft Nostalgia, Cadwell Wolds, excellently organised but friendly and fun at the same time.
As Andy stated, there are levels of 'classic' racing, but the HSCC caters for a broad range of cars and levels of prep. I'd suggest taking a look at the website, and attending the Silverstone event in October and have a look around.
My 70's 'classic' is a sub £10k racer - I'm biased, but with your budget I'd fill my garage with an Alfa 'Bertone' coupe.
Ok, thanks for the pointers guys.
I'm definitely interested in GT or Touring type cars, rather than single seaters. I'm certainly wanting something RWD, so the mini is out. Era wise, probably something in 1950-1975, I just think cars from that era are a wonderful blend of simple technology, but speeds getting quicker and utterly beautiful (well, some of them at least).
Kickstart - that kind of set-up with someone else doing the prep to share in half the drive is exactly the kind of thing I'd be looking for... I just have no idea how to find the right person. Unfortunately I don't spend enough time in motoring circles I don't think.
Yeah, I've read bits and bobs on the different levels of "classic". Am I correct in thinking that for Appendix K regs, the car itself doesn't need to have a race history, but just needs to have been built before 1966 and be of a model that was raced? Or can your actual car be from after 1966 as long as the model was in production before then? Either way, I'm sure it's more efficient to buy an already prepared race car, rather than build one.
Seems that while having an Appendix K car is going to be restrictive, and maybe more expensive in parts, it will mean that upgrades are restricted, and I like the idea of racing something with the aim being originality, rather than everything being upgraded.
Veesix75 - funny you should mention it, I've always had a hankering for the Alfa 105 series coupes. Would 1965 GTA rep be anywhere close to budget or am I dreaming? I guess that would then potentially be eligible for the both the HSCC Historic Touring Cars, and the CSCC Classic K's (among others I'm sure).
I'll certainly try to make it along to Silverstone in October, I'll be on my way back from racing at Oulton on Saturday, so just depends how much car stuff the girlfriend will put up with!
I'm definitely interested in GT or Touring type cars, rather than single seaters. I'm certainly wanting something RWD, so the mini is out. Era wise, probably something in 1950-1975, I just think cars from that era are a wonderful blend of simple technology, but speeds getting quicker and utterly beautiful (well, some of them at least).
Kickstart - that kind of set-up with someone else doing the prep to share in half the drive is exactly the kind of thing I'd be looking for... I just have no idea how to find the right person. Unfortunately I don't spend enough time in motoring circles I don't think.
Yeah, I've read bits and bobs on the different levels of "classic". Am I correct in thinking that for Appendix K regs, the car itself doesn't need to have a race history, but just needs to have been built before 1966 and be of a model that was raced? Or can your actual car be from after 1966 as long as the model was in production before then? Either way, I'm sure it's more efficient to buy an already prepared race car, rather than build one.
Seems that while having an Appendix K car is going to be restrictive, and maybe more expensive in parts, it will mean that upgrades are restricted, and I like the idea of racing something with the aim being originality, rather than everything being upgraded.
Veesix75 - funny you should mention it, I've always had a hankering for the Alfa 105 series coupes. Would 1965 GTA rep be anywhere close to budget or am I dreaming? I guess that would then potentially be eligible for the both the HSCC Historic Touring Cars, and the CSCC Classic K's (among others I'm sure).
I'll certainly try to make it along to Silverstone in October, I'll be on my way back from racing at Oulton on Saturday, so just depends how much car stuff the girlfriend will put up with!
I have a different perspective to offer. It might just be that a love of classic cars and going racing in one might seem to be the ideal mix of two pursuits, but for the first time racer (possibly on a limited budget if I have got that right) it might be better to separate the two.
One of the problems is actually race cars get battered. Maybe you will be one of those great drivers that always stays out of trouble. They exist, I'm not one. So your beautiful classic will need quite a lot of tlc and capability (mechanical and bodywork) to keep going and keep nice. You will most likely hate every touch and mark. The dream is great, but maybe the reality is less so especially for a novice.
I'd get out in something low budget and low value to get lots acing. Something like the BMW saloons if you want RWD action or stay with funcup.
Just an alternative perspective for you to consider.
HTH
Bert
One of the problems is actually race cars get battered. Maybe you will be one of those great drivers that always stays out of trouble. They exist, I'm not one. So your beautiful classic will need quite a lot of tlc and capability (mechanical and bodywork) to keep going and keep nice. You will most likely hate every touch and mark. The dream is great, but maybe the reality is less so especially for a novice.
I'd get out in something low budget and low value to get lots acing. Something like the BMW saloons if you want RWD action or stay with funcup.
Just an alternative perspective for you to consider.
HTH
Bert
velocemitch said:
An Alfa 105 coupe in road sports Would make Sense, but you wouldn't get close to an actual GTA in fia spec, too many rare and expensive parts. A sprint gt to FIA spec would be easier, but still more expensive and slower than say a 2000GTV in road sport spec.
Oh, I didn't mean an actual, original GTA, they are vastly too expensive, but it seems from brief looking that the replicas aren't too far out of budget, or have I missed something?TBH - I'm less concerned with the outright pace, and more with a championship with the right "spirit", i.e. competitive, lots of people to race, but still about the fun. Maybe something like the roadsports is better as its a bit more relaxed?
BertBert said:
I have a different perspective to offer. It might just be that a love of classic cars and going racing in one might seem to be the ideal mix of two pursuits, but for the first time racer (possibly on a limited budget if I have got that right) it might be better to separate the two.
One of the problems is actually race cars get battered. Maybe you will be one of those great drivers that always stays out of trouble. They exist, I'm not one. So your beautiful classic will need quite a lot of tlc and capability (mechanical and bodywork) to keep going and keep nice. You will most likely hate every touch and mark. The dream is great, but maybe the reality is less so especially for a novice.
I'd get out in something low budget and low value to get lots acing. Something like the BMW saloons if you want RWD action or stay with funcup.
Just an alternative perspective for you to consider.
HTH
Bert
The alternative perspective is very much appreciated. I'm certainly planning on continuing racing in Funcup, but am just thinking about other options to add more racing! You may well be right, that its just too prohibitive at this point. I'm very much not someone who's cars are garage queens, so I'm not going to grimace too much at the normal racing scuffs. I guess the bigger question is just cost to put bigger things right. As much as I love classics, I really love them to be used, hence the desire for a race car, rather than just something nice to take to the pub at weekends.One of the problems is actually race cars get battered. Maybe you will be one of those great drivers that always stays out of trouble. They exist, I'm not one. So your beautiful classic will need quite a lot of tlc and capability (mechanical and bodywork) to keep going and keep nice. You will most likely hate every touch and mark. The dream is great, but maybe the reality is less so especially for a novice.
I'd get out in something low budget and low value to get lots acing. Something like the BMW saloons if you want RWD action or stay with funcup.
Just an alternative perspective for you to consider.
HTH
Bert
Still got lots of thinking to do... hmmm
I guess what I meant was that to race a 'GTA replica' you would need to buy or recreate one which would be very expensive. But if you think of a Sprint GT which looked a bit like a GTA replica then that's cheaper as you would be just running a normal production Car (Steel body, 4 plug head, no magnesium bits etc).
Still believe running to FIA spec in either the GT or the GTA is far more expensive than the other options mentioned and the performance is reduced too.
Still believe running to FIA spec in either the GT or the GTA is far more expensive than the other options mentioned and the performance is reduced too.
I'm an Alfa fan and have owned a couple, albeit 70s/ 80s ones inc a race 33, and I have never been particularly a fan of MGs but the logic about racing one in classic racing for those on a realistic budget is indisputable.
You can't easily buy spares for an Alfa, and if you can they will be expensive, and there are not that many specialists around. You can buy virtually everything for an MGB inc a new chassis if you need one. Not the fastest things around but good fun, practical (in a racing sense) and in FIA spec eligible for a wide variety of series and races; unless I had had a small lottery win, even I wouldn't consider an Alfa, and on the budget you indicate would probably only be looking at an MGB!
You can't easily buy spares for an Alfa, and if you can they will be expensive, and there are not that many specialists around. You can buy virtually everything for an MGB inc a new chassis if you need one. Not the fastest things around but good fun, practical (in a racing sense) and in FIA spec eligible for a wide variety of series and races; unless I had had a small lottery win, even I wouldn't consider an Alfa, and on the budget you indicate would probably only be looking at an MGB!
Lots of sage advice
If you have any interest in a FIA MGB then Doug at MG Motorsport is the man to speak to
Cannot help you with Alfas but I agree with Andy that getting one to run quickly is likely to be rather expensive
Get yourself down to a HSCC CSCC meeting to get more of a feel for this type of racing
It's worth noting that there will be s lot more cars available than are actually advertised and if you speak to the dealers and the club officials you will hopefully have a few to choose from if you don't want to have one newly built up
If you have any interest in a FIA MGB then Doug at MG Motorsport is the man to speak to
Cannot help you with Alfas but I agree with Andy that getting one to run quickly is likely to be rather expensive
Get yourself down to a HSCC CSCC meeting to get more of a feel for this type of racing
It's worth noting that there will be s lot more cars available than are actually advertised and if you speak to the dealers and the club officials you will hopefully have a few to choose from if you don't want to have one newly built up
Well, I agree that the mgb has more plentiful parts etc, but I don't struggle for Alfa specialists, there's still quite a few of them involved in racing for classics and the latest models.
I run mine on a tight budget, and spares can be found if you look a bit harder.
A 2000gtv in road sports would be a great option......but as I said before, I'm biased.
I run mine on a tight budget, and spares can be found if you look a bit harder.
A 2000gtv in road sports would be a great option......but as I said before, I'm biased.
I'm hoping to be at Silverstone, pending a gearbox rebuild!
I will let you know, but I don't run a Bertone personally, however there is usually a lovely red one running that would be worth a look at.
Take a scan at the hscc regs as road sports requires an mot on the car (most are trailered irrespective), I've run in the invitation class this year with an Alfasud Sprint, but you're welcome to take a look.
I will let you know, but I don't run a Bertone personally, however there is usually a lovely red one running that would be worth a look at.
Take a scan at the hscc regs as road sports requires an mot on the car (most are trailered irrespective), I've run in the invitation class this year with an Alfasud Sprint, but you're welcome to take a look.
Edited by Veesix75 on Friday 18th September 13:49
If your looking for a B, I know of a fia B for sale in worcestershire, will come with a fresh motor. prepped and ready to go. could be taken away or run by the place its at for you. I've helped run it and its twin for the last couple of years.. last race was spa earlier this year.
its the typical red with white roof lol
its the typical red with white roof lol
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