Starting a Mk2 Golf track / race car build - question.

[Jonleeper]

Well I've made an early New Year's Resolution and decided that this year the Golf has to be back on the road and all of the work has to be to the relevant race regulations or easily reversible. This should allow me to convert the car to a full race car, once I get my ARDS and enough money to upgrade from trackdays to race weekends. I am sure that I will have any questions throughout the process and I will come here to ask for advice.

When I took the car off the road, last year, the idea was to fir a cage. I did have a “mate” who was going to knock one up for me so I stripped out the interior and started to remove the sunroof. That is where I had got to, and the condition that the car is in now. So to recover the situation I’ve been looking around at commercial roll cages. There seem to be a number of options but the most respected bolt in ones, for the GTi Cup series anyway, appear to come from Tornado Motorsport. I have found two options for these cages the first is:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110442667254?_trksid=p20...
at £497.70 and the second is here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110442674650?_trksid=p20...
at £799.20.

Now they are both compliant with the regulations and thus both suitable for my needs and the only differences I can see are in the door bars and an extra brace in the main hoop. I can go ahead with the cheaper one now but would have to wait another couple of months to save up for the more expensive one.

My question is if I go for the cheaper version will I regret it later and wish I had waited to get the other? Many thanks,

Jon

[Weslake-Monza]

The more expensive one appears to have a suitable lateral bar for mounting (looped round) shoulder harness straps and is also likely to aid the stiffness of the shell considerably. You get what you pay for and the extra money buys you a better cage. Do you actually buy a cage or do you buy a box of suitably bent tubes? Have you looked at buying a s/h Golf that already has a cage in it?

[rallycross]

I don't why people skimp on roll cages when building a car for competition it makes no sense to get the cheaper one if its going to be raced.

[Jonleeper]

Weslake-Monza said:

The more expensive one appears to have a suitable lateral bar for mounting (looped round) shoulder harness straps and is also likely to aid the stiffness of the shell considerably. You get what you pay for and the extra money buys you a better cage. Do you actually buy a cage or do you buy a box of suitably bent tubes? Have you looked at buying a s/h Golf that already has a cage in it?

Both cages come as a kit of parts with the floor plates needing to be welded in. I already have the car and shells with cages fitted are much more expensive than the cage so that's not really an option. Thanks,

Jon

[Jonleeper]

rallycross said:

I don't why people skimp on roll cages when building a car for competition it makes no sense to get the cheaper one if its going to be raced.

Not really trying to skimp just wondering if I would look bakc and wish I'd gone for the more expensive one as there was something lacking that I would realise later. I'm not sure that I'll end up racing the Golf, just thinking ahead that it would be nice to have it as an option as I'm going to spend some money to make it a good trakday tool.

Edited by Jonleeper on Monday 29th December 21:03

[Jonleeper]

well two answers and they both agree. Looks like I'll wait and get the better cage. Thanks,

Jon

[bozla]

rallycross said:

I don't why people skimp on roll cages when building a car for competition it makes no sense to get the cheaper one if its going to be raced.

More expensive is not always better. Most critical thing for a cage is for it to be put in correctly.

[spikey78]

I've built and raced two Mk2 Golf's with 6 point cages and been involved with the build of a handful of others. My first one had an off the shelf Sparco 'dash dodger', and my second one had a bespoke cage with all the bars.. My view is that the 2nd one in your listing is a bit ott and a lot of the extra bars aren't really necessary bearing in mind that it's not tied into the pillars and doesn't go to the strut tops. The double door bars are a worthwhile safety option - the rest just looks cool, but won't add much apart from weight.
With the greatest respect I'm assuming the fact that you're umming and ahhing over a couple of hundred quid means that you're not aiming to build the ultimate Golf and so I would ask Tornado to supply the first cage but with double door bars.

[Jonleeper]

spikey78 said:

I've built and raced two Mk2 Golf's with 6 point cages and been involved with the build of a handful of others. My first one had an off the shelf Sparco 'dash dodger', and my second one had a bespoke cage with all the bars.. My view is that the 2nd one in your listing is a bit ott and a lot of the extra bars aren't really necessary bearing in mind that it's not tied into the pillars and doesn't go to the strut tops. The double door bars are a worthwhile safety option - the rest just looks cool, but won't add much apart from weight.
With the greatest respect I'm assuming the fact that you're umming and ahhing over a couple of hundred quid means that you're not aiming to build the ultimate Golf and so I would ask Tornado to supply the first cage but with double door bars.

Many thanks for your input, and don't worry about upsetting me, it's nearly impossible now! You are quite correct and I am not trying to build the ultimate anything. I am going to drive my Golf round as many tracks as I can as fast as I dare and that sounds to me like racing. Now if the racing regulations think that the best thing for safety is to fit a cage etc then why wouldn't I do the same? And as I'm going to spend some money on the Golf then why not plan ahead a little bit, especially when it only takes a bit of planning and thought. I'm not thinking that my car will ever be a Championship winning beast but I want it to be a safe and fun toy for me that gives me another option when, or possibly if, I ever get round to actually achieving an ARDS pass and going racing. I did look into the costs of racing and, in an average series, an average car will set you back between £8k and £10k so if I can make my track day toy Golf legal for £4k then I've saved. Well that's my "man maths" anyway.

Thanks for your advice, and please feel free to keep letting me have the benefit of your experience, I'm sure I'll need it. ;-) On a side note did you enjoy racing the Golf's?

Jon

[Weslake-Monza]

Or ask for the cheaper cage with the better door bars AND the lateral bar you can use for the driver's harness.

[markbates]

You have a few MK2 golf championships to look at as well as others which it would be eligible for (im sure some CSCC as well as other MSVR championships). It would be worth understanding which one you may look at going into as they may well have specific cages or cage requirements, having had a quick look at the 2 championships which are MK2 specific the one currently running with the BRSCC looks the better for the novice as it doesn't seem to cost as much and has more cars in it. Having looked on the website and around it would look like a few teams are involved with the preparation of a few cars these are Saxon motorsport and Jabba sport. It may be worth speaking to them to see if they have any second hand cages or could advise on which sort to buy. With the autosport show just around the corner get along to it and have a look at the cars they have, as im sure that both the BRSCC and MSVR will have at least one on the stand and a good look around and a chat to the owner or co-ordinator may well save you a lot of hassle as they will know some of the pit falls.

[Jonleeper]

markbates said:

You have a few MK2 golf championships to look at as well as others which it would be eligible for (im sure some CSCC as well as other MSVR championships). It would be worth understanding which one you may look at going into as they may well have specific cages or cage requirements, having had a quick look at the 2 championships which are MK2 specific the one currently running with the BRSCC looks the better for the novice as it doesn't seem to cost as much and has more cars in it. Having looked on the website and around it would look like a few teams are involved with the preparation of a few cars these are Saxon motorsport and Jabba sport. It may be worth speaking to them to see if they have any second hand cages or could advise on which sort to buy. With the autosport show just around the corner get along to it and have a look at the cars they have, as im sure that both the BRSCC and MSVR will have at least one on the stand and a good look around and a chat to the owner or co-ordinator may well save you a lot of hassle as they will know some of the pit falls.

Thanks, I have been looking around and have printed off the 2014 Regulations for both the BRSCC, Production GTi, and MSVR championships, Dunlop GTi. I have struggled to find out much about each one though as their individual websites are somewhat out of date and I cannot get access to the Production GTi forum and the Dunlop GTi forum hasn’t had a post, other than in the For Sale section, for a while. It is, therefore, somewhat difficult for a complete novice like me to get a feel for which one I would fit into best. If my Google skills are letting me down then I would welcome a better steer. Unfortunately Autosport clashes with SWMBO’s birthday this year and so I cannot make it but I think a mate will and I’ll ask him to get some photos and information, as long as he has time gathering all his other stuff! It would be great to chat to someone actually competing but, if I ever want to actually compete, SWMBO needs to come first. I will send an e-mail to both Saxon and Jabba to see what they say, thanks for the tip.

Given all the advice on here I think I’ll start with the Production GTi specifications and go from there. On a first read they are not too dissimilar and the Dunlop allows slightly more modification, plexiglass windows and battery sighting for example, so I can move from Production to Dunlop more easily than Dunlop to Production, I think!

Thanks to everyone and if there are other things I should be thinking of, or more comments, please keep them coming.

Jon

[markbates]

Jon
I have been reading the regs and looking at the results from last year, to be fair the production GTi's looks like the better option and from what I have read a number of those who ran in the Dunlop championship are making the switch. This may be due to costs bigger grids etc.
If you cant get to the autosport the regs for both championships give contact details of the championship co-ordinator as well as the appointed eligibility person, it may be worth dropping them an email (start with the championship co-ordinator). Equally a lot of championships have a track day or two in advance of the season, not so much an official test type thing but a get together, its worth seeing if the co-ordinator knows of one and then pop along to it. If not which is your local track?

[Jonleeper]

Thanks mate, the family is in deepest darkest Kent, only a stones throw from Lydden Hill but have done most of my track days at Brands. The car is up with me in Bristol, where I work and commute weekly from, so close (ish) to Combe.

[spikey78]

I did the Mk2 championship (which is now the Dunlop championship) virtually from the first race in 2007 until 2010 or 2011 I can't remember which. It was great, I really enjoyed it and was pretty successful too. Almost inevitably though people started to spend what I considered to be too much money for a 'budget' championship and the whole thing changed fundamentally in my view so I sold the car and bought a single seater.
Fortunately though the Production Gti championship seems to have picked up where the Dunlop championship left off and if I was starting now that's definitely where I would race. A lot of the original championship drivers are doing this instead, and have done year after year so the organisers seem to have the right idea..

[h5lrw]

Having been a supporter of the original (now Dunlop) championship since being on the grid for the first race in 07 I am sad to report that from mine and many other racers opinions it has unfortunately taken a turn for the worse when the one remaining original organiser sold on the Championship.

It is such a shame to see years of hard work go down the drain and there are rumors circulating with regard to if there will even be a Dunlop championship this year.

I raced in Production GTI last year and it was reminiscent and if not better than the first years of the original championship. WELL ORGANISED, all competitors looked after, friendly paddock atmosphere with some great banter and most importantly close competitive action right through the field.

Drop me a PM and I'll send you the Championship coordinators number and email and my details too if you want a proper chat about the Championship, Golf's and the provisional calender etc. It's worth checking out the Production GTI Facebook page too.

[Josh Smith]

Speak to Rob Sadler who runs the BRSCC Production GTI series. I ran in that championship at a few rounds this year. Very friendly paddock, competitive from front to back of the grid, pretty much every car is identically matched. The calendar is great and they often get garages which makes the weekend easier.

My first go at tin tops after running in sports prototypes for a long time.

Great fun to drive in the wet and dry.

Let me know if I can be of any help, I'm also near Bristol.


Josh

[markbates]

h5lrw said:

Having been a supporter of the original (now Dunlop) championship since being on the grid for the first race in 07 I am sad to report that from mine and many other racers opinions it has unfortunately taken a turn for the worse when the one remaining original organiser sold on the Championship.

Is this the championship that started off life with the 750MC? I seem to remember that they ran one for a while. I am surprised it has fallen so quickly given that it had ex touring car driver as well as some other top named club drivers in it. You say it was sold on which seems to have finished it off, what started the downfall? Its always interesting to see what has caused some of the championships with large grids to fall from grace, hopefully others can learn from what they have done wrong. I would have though (and this is a guess) that moving from 750MC pushed up entry fees and then people started spending to much money and probably 'pushing the boundaries' of what was allowed without getting pulled up? (Am I close, as this seems to be the reason for a few downfalls over the years).

[spikey78]

It was originally 750mc which was fine, when it went to MSVR the entries might have gone up a bit, but not significantly. The advantage of going with MSVR was that the championship went to much better circuits, like Brands GP or the long Snett rather than places like Mallory or short Snett/Brands etc (no disrespect to Mallory by the way, I quite like it but you get the idea)
I'd say the downfall was that one or two individuals began to spend serious money on developing their cars, and it became a bit less accessible to those that self ran cars, with the odd exception. That put people off what was supposed to be a 'clubbie' formula and drivers gradually voted with their feet, me included.
Then Dunlop tyres were mandated which meant more expense as one now needed to get rid of their Toyos and buy Dunlops-a wet set and a dry set (which a lot of people had with the Toyos anyway but it wasn't absolutely necessary up to that point)
Strangely it appeared that the cost to prepare a car was climbing, but the second hand market for cars plummeted as drivers went away. I sold my front running car for pretty good money, one year later cars that had been developed much further than mine sold for several thousand pounds less.
It's a real shame, I really enjoyed it at first, I liked the organisers very much (even though I might not have agreed with everything they did!) I was very loyal to it, and introduced a couple of drivers into it but somehow it seems to be on a path to self destruction and as someone mentioned-it may not even exist next year. I may be wrong of course as I'm not involved anymore but I do still keep and eye on how it's going.
When Production Gti started up I was a bit anti, but fair play to Rob Sadlers foresight-its gone from strength to strength and is definitely the way forward at this point.
I generally think that sooner or later in any formula someone will come along and pour money into it-its almost inevitable but hopefully Prod Gti can keep it in check as much as possible

[h5lrw]

I couldn't have put it better Mr spikey