Cheating - would you do it if you didn't get caught?
Discussion
The kind of cheating I'm thinking of is the technical stuff. eg fitting oversize pistons for a few more bhp when they aren't allowed...or....switchable ECU maps. You run an illegal quicker one on track but the scrutineers find a legal one when they plug in a lap top....or....running rocket fuel when the rules specify pump fuel only....or...any of a thousand things that make a car quicker but the scrutineers will never pick up on.
Would you still want to win, knowing that you have an unfair advantage?
Would you still want to win, knowing that you have an unfair advantage?
bmwguy said:
Would you still want to win, knowing that you have an unfair advantage?
If the unfair advantage was gained by cheating, no. Even if the unfair advantage was gained due to luck (i.e. a particularly strong engine which is legal) any victories would feel a bit hollow I suspect. Fortunately I've never been in this position!No I wouldn't. Where's the sense of achievement in that?
But, I doubt anyone will say they would yet people do all the time. I remember one instant where a guy span in front of me rejoined from the grass and just drove straight past everyone like they weren't moving. When all the cars were meant to be the same there is no legit way that can be possible.
But, I doubt anyone will say they would yet people do all the time. I remember one instant where a guy span in front of me rejoined from the grass and just drove straight past everyone like they weren't moving. When all the cars were meant to be the same there is no legit way that can be possible.
MUCH more fun is bending the rules, finding loopholes that allow you to do something that no one else has thought of. Colin Chapman was famous for this, but my favourite example was a friend who converted his Hot Hatch's rear suspension from torsion bar - not easy to adjust - to coil-overs. The rules said that 'original suspension system to be retained' so he did retain two wires that were twisted by suspension movement.
Problem is, many series' regs now say that anything not permitted is forbidden, which rather spoils the fun.
John
Problem is, many series' regs now say that anything not permitted is forbidden, which rather spoils the fun.
John
As expected no one is admitting cheating.....but obviously plenty do or why would we need eligibility scrutineers?
The wire torsion bars is an extreme example. I would regard it as cheating. It obeys the letter but not the spirit of the regs and I assume he was told to get rid of the set up PDQ?
I think there is a large minority who think cheating without getting caught is a legitimate part of motor racing.
The wire torsion bars is an extreme example. I would regard it as cheating. It obeys the letter but not the spirit of the regs and I assume he was told to get rid of the set up PDQ?
I think there is a large minority who think cheating without getting caught is a legitimate part of motor racing.
Edited by bmwguy on Saturday 5th July 15:32
tapkaJohnD said:
MUCH more fun is bending the rules, finding loopholes that allow you to do something that no one else has thought of. Colin Chapman was famous for this, but my favourite example was a friend who converted his Hot Hatch's rear suspension from torsion bar - not easy to adjust - to coil-overs. The rules said that 'original suspension system to be retained' so he did retain two wires that were twisted by suspension movement.
Problem is, many series' regs now say that anything not permitted is forbidden, which rather spoils the fun.
John
Ah, the rules often do say 'unless explicitly stated' but in-fact there are all sorts or acceptable gray areas that occur when we go racing. Problem is, many series' regs now say that anything not permitted is forbidden, which rather spoils the fun.
John
Interpretation is key - an example of an acceptable gray area: the 750 formula regs state that the ignition can only have a single input to provide the spark - but you can use an electronic ignition system rather than a distributor. Wouldn't different ignition maps count as different inputs...?
The classic example of something being difficult to police is the ECU, but then so is fuel (I've never heard of fuel being checked).
Personally I wouldn't want to cheat - I'd rather make friends with the people I race with rather than eternally being labelled a cheater (you only need to get caught once!) You also want to be careful not to point fingers. I've seen it happen only to see it disproved - you look like a sore loser.
bmwguy said:
As expected no one is admitting cheating.....but obviously plenty do or why would we need eligibility scrutineers?
The wire torsion bars is an extreme example. I would regard it as cheating. It obeys the letter but not the spirit of the regs and I assume he was told to get rid of the set up PDQ?
No, he won the series, but was told to remove for the next season!The wire torsion bars is an extreme example. I would regard it as cheating. It obeys the letter but not the spirit of the regs and I assume he was told to get rid of the set up PDQ?
Edited by bmwguy on Saturday 5th July 15:32
Any other stories of 'knuckle-near' rule bending?
Colin Chapman was alleged to have painted a cardboard 'fire-wall' with aluminium paint, and when challenged that it should be made of metal, said that the last time he looked it up, aluminium was a metal.
John
Most cheats get caught and all they've achieved in cheating is upsetting honest competitors. Engines can be sealed and stripped down and measured - followed if necessary by disqualification. Fuel can be sampled and sent away for analysis - followed if necessary by disqualification, same for ECUs, gearboxes, diffs, dampers, springs and a bunch of other stuff - even at club level.
Weslake-Monza said:
Most cheats get caught and all they've achieved in cheating is upsetting honest competitors. Engines can be sealed and stripped down and measured - followed if necessary by disqualification. Fuel can be sampled and sent away for analysis - followed if necessary by disqualification, same for ECUs, gearboxes, diffs, dampers, springs and a bunch of other stuff - even at club level.
On the contrary, I think most cheats get away with it. Fuel sampling for example is so expensive that it is almost never done because most club series don't have the budget for it. What actually happens is that honest competitors suspect cheating is rife, vote with their feet and the series dies. IMHO opinion the cheats are not midfield at all but up the front, history will tell you that! I know of one prolific engine builder that I will not name that will not warrant his engines unless run on trick fuel and that's a fact and I know a few guys using his engines!
Edited by Al Weyman on Monday 7th July 11:00
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