Racing while your road licence is suspended.
Discussion
This has been discussed at length in the "Not so Fun Cup" thread, where a non-competitor drove onto a live race track. Question was, could he have his road licence taken away for on-track behaviour. Many opinions there!
But AFAIK, you only need a valid road licence to take part in stage rallies, where you need to drive between stages on public roads. The MSA regs are otherwise silent, except for catch-all statements about "bringing the sport into disrepute", for which losing your licence might be an example. Best, and most honest thing to do is to contact the Race Secretary of your series and own up.
If you have lost your licence for a long time, a whole season or more, then if I were the RS I'd show you the door. If however you were only going to lose a race or two from the season, I might be more lenient.
John
But AFAIK, you only need a valid road licence to take part in stage rallies, where you need to drive between stages on public roads. The MSA regs are otherwise silent, except for catch-all statements about "bringing the sport into disrepute", for which losing your licence might be an example. Best, and most honest thing to do is to contact the Race Secretary of your series and own up.
If you have lost your licence for a long time, a whole season or more, then if I were the RS I'd show you the door. If however you were only going to lose a race or two from the season, I might be more lenient.
John
tenpenceshort said:
The offence of driving whilst disqualified applies to driving on a road. A race track would not be classed as a road.
Agreed the race track is not a road but it clearly is a public place for the purposes of the RTA. Race drivers are members of the public and the RTA makes it clear that a place is public even though members of the public have to pay to be there. Race drivers have paid A LOT to be there! I should think that makes the race track more of a public place than most!!!I have been trying to find examples of people being prosecuted by the police for competing in races while disqualified on the road but haven't found any so far. I vaguely remember that the late great Gerry Marshall got into trouble for this.
BTW my own road licence is safely in my possession (not in Swansea!) and points free!
Edited by bmwguy on Wednesday 2nd July 12:18
Edited by bmwguy on Wednesday 2nd July 12:21
bmwguy said:
Agreed the race track is not a road but it clearly is a public place for the purposes of the RTA. Race drivers are members of the public and the RTA makes it clear that a place is public even though members of the public have to pay to be there. Race drivers have paid A LOT to be there! I should think that makes the race track more of a public place than most!!!
An enclosed race track is not a public place for the purposes of the RTA. The definition is not satisfied simply because someone who happens to be a member of the public may have access, otherwise, for example, your driveway would be a public place (which it almost certainly isn't) because the Postman walks up and down it.In any case, it is irrelevant, as driving whilst disqualified only comes into play on a road, and not a public place.
RTA 1988 said:
103 Obtaining licence, or driving, while disqualified.E+W
(1)A person is guilty of an offence if, while disqualified for holding or obtaining a licence, he—
(a)obtains a licence, or
(b)drives a motor vehicle on a road.
The Blue Book also makes the following point regards purpose built locations where the public have no access onto the track (my bold);(1)A person is guilty of an offence if, while disqualified for holding or obtaining a licence, he—
(a)obtains a licence, or
(b)drives a motor vehicle on a road.
MSA Blue Book 2014 p63 said:
"From 1 July 1992, the offences of dangerous, careless and inconsiderate driving of a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road (sections 1, 2 and 3 of the Act as amended by the Road Traffic Act 1991) also apply to a public place.
The extension of road traffic law to public places has important consequences for those who take part or organise events involving motor vehicles in fields, parks or other areas where the general public is admitted either free of charge or on payment of an entrance fee...
...It is not foreseen that courts would regard purpose built stadiums, where the public have no access to the place where the event is staged, as a public place
The extension of road traffic law to public places has important consequences for those who take part or organise events involving motor vehicles in fields, parks or other areas where the general public is admitted either free of charge or on payment of an entrance fee...
...It is not foreseen that courts would regard purpose built stadiums, where the public have no access to the place where the event is staged, as a public place
Edited by tenpenceshort on Wednesday 2nd July 12:28
I don't accept your analogy with my driveway. That is not a public place because the public do not have permission to be there. In contrast, the race track is a public place because a section of the public do have permission to be there. The postman is a specific person to whom permission has been granted and therefore not a member of the public whereas race drivers are any members of the public who have paid (and satisfied a few other conditions ). ie the race track is open to anyone...not a specific class of people.
Anyway...as you say "road" is the critical element. But....I think the race track may actually be a road!!
Road – this is defined in s192(1) Road Traffic Act 1988 as being “in relation to England and Wales, means any highway and any other road to which the public has access
Anyway...as you say "road" is the critical element. But....I think the race track may actually be a road!!
Road – this is defined in s192(1) Road Traffic Act 1988 as being “in relation to England and Wales, means any highway and any other road to which the public has access
If a race track is a road or a public place then to drive a motor vehicle on it you will need RTA insurance. As I asked in another thread here, will Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso have RTA insurance for this weekend's Grand Prix at Silverstone? Of course they won't. Neither will they have to declare any accidents they have racing there when it comes to renewing their road insurance.
A purpose built race track during a controlled meeting is not a public place nor is it a road. It is a place where access is restricted to a narrow group of people who have specific permission and who enter as either staff, competitors or guests. That they (like everybody else) can at times be a member of the public does not mean everywhere they go then becomes a public place.
I have provided the law above and supported it with the MSA's own opinion (which contradicts yours).
I could trawl through Wilkinsons if I had the energy and provide you case authorities but I feel the time would be wasted.
A purpose built race track during a controlled meeting is not a public place nor is it a road. It is a place where access is restricted to a narrow group of people who have specific permission and who enter as either staff, competitors or guests. That they (like everybody else) can at times be a member of the public does not mean everywhere they go then becomes a public place.
I have provided the law above and supported it with the MSA's own opinion (which contradicts yours).
I could trawl through Wilkinsons if I had the energy and provide you case authorities but I feel the time would be wasted.
bmwguy said:
So....you are convinced that someone disqualified from driving on public roads is allowed to compete in circuit racing authorised by the MSA?
As far as the RTA is concerned, yes, so long as the circuit does not encompass a road to which the public has access or other public place (which it is unlikely to if entry onto the circuit is by permission only).Whether the MSA will provide permission to compete is a matter for them, but that's irrelevant for the purposes of the RTA.
woof said:
You can race even if you've been disqualified / banned from road driving, for whatever reason ( assuming it's not for a medical reason that is )
Indeed, I've never found anything in the blue book that requires competitors in events not held on the public road to hold or not be banned from holding a driving licence. Didn't the MSA say something to that effect when an F1 driver was in court for a speeding offence that could have led to a short ban?
hman said:
IMO if you lose your driving licence then this has NO effect on your race licence, you dont need to have a driving licence to gain a race licence so the two are mutually exclusive.
It depends on the circumstances of how you lost your road licence. It may become a disciplinary issue under C 1.1.4 of the Blue Book.How about P.67 of the Blue Book, Judicial 1.1.14?
"1.1.14. Persons Disqualified Elsewhere
Any person disqualified or suspended by the Governing
Body of any other sport recognised by the MSA shall
be reported to the MSC National Court and in the event
that the reason for such disqualification or suspension
would, had the matter involved these Regulations, be a
breach of these Regulations then the National Court
shall be entitled to impose any penalty as it would have
done had the breach occurred under these
Regulations."
This is about "the Governing Body of any other sport", but might extend to the Governing
Body of the Country" What do you think?
JOhn
"1.1.14. Persons Disqualified Elsewhere
Any person disqualified or suspended by the Governing
Body of any other sport recognised by the MSA shall
be reported to the MSC National Court and in the event
that the reason for such disqualification or suspension
would, had the matter involved these Regulations, be a
breach of these Regulations then the National Court
shall be entitled to impose any penalty as it would have
done had the breach occurred under these
Regulations."
This is about "the Governing Body of any other sport", but might extend to the Governing
Body of the Country" What do you think?
JOhn
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