Castle Combe Track safety
Discussion
At the first meeting of the year we saw the appearance of new tyre walls at the second apex of both chicanes. These tyre walls are two tyres deep and four tyres high. They are held together with rubber belting and are, for all practical purposes, solid walls. They are placed within two feet of the white lines denoting the edge of the track. The reason given by the club/circuit is that they are there to prevent corner cutting and were placed there under direct instruction from the MSA
In my opinion these immovable barriers are extremely dangerous for two reasons:-
1. Any driver who loses control turning into the chicane will drift to the outside of the exit of the first apex, straight into the new barrier
2. any driver who overcooks the entry now has no alternative but to attempt to take the second apex, this will mean risking the safety of other competitors when in the past he would simply have straight lined the corner.
If Corner cutting is to be deterred there is existing legislation and penalties available to the clerk of the course to penalise anyone who transgresses the rules.
perhaps the powers tht be should look to the application of these rules for ALL classes of racing rather than start building structures that make our sport more dangerous than it needs to be.
This sort of narrow minded solution would NEVER be tolerated in F1, why should my safety be any less important?
Simon
BTW I have raced at every Combe meeting for the past seven years, I AM a loyal supporter of the circuit
In my opinion these immovable barriers are extremely dangerous for two reasons:-
1. Any driver who loses control turning into the chicane will drift to the outside of the exit of the first apex, straight into the new barrier
2. any driver who overcooks the entry now has no alternative but to attempt to take the second apex, this will mean risking the safety of other competitors when in the past he would simply have straight lined the corner.
If Corner cutting is to be deterred there is existing legislation and penalties available to the clerk of the course to penalise anyone who transgresses the rules.
perhaps the powers tht be should look to the application of these rules for ALL classes of racing rather than start building structures that make our sport more dangerous than it needs to be.
This sort of narrow minded solution would NEVER be tolerated in F1, why should my safety be any less important?
Simon
BTW I have raced at every Combe meeting for the past seven years, I AM a loyal supporter of the circuit
As a driver of an open car, I hate tyre stacks being used to deter exceeding the track limits anyway. It is, in my opinion, not a safe practice for the reasons you mention but also the additional risk of loose tyres getting scattered across the circuit should one driver hit them.
I've only raced at Combe once but I wasn't aware the circuit was having a particular problem with overshooting the right hander at the chicanes.
I've only raced at Combe once but I wasn't aware the circuit was having a particular problem with overshooting the right hander at the chicanes.
I recall when they added chicane tyre stacks at the Monza GP in 1996 (or was it 1995?). All the drivers were against it, but they went ahead with them anyway. Damon Hill glanced one whilst leading and retired, then Schuey hit the same one later on but luckily his car was unharmed.
As you say, there are already penalties that can be applied, so all it's doing is presenting an opportunity for fewer cars to finish.
As you say, there are already penalties that can be applied, so all it's doing is presenting an opportunity for fewer cars to finish.
Sounds appalling to me - if Si says it's dangerous, then chaps in two simple words, IT IS.
If that is the motivation, no-one in their right minds 'cures cheats' by prejudicing the safety of absolutely everyone, especially when it might not be intended cheating at all e.g. something goes wrong on the way into a chicane.
Start by applying the rules and if that fails, do something with the kerbs to make them more punishing on the car, not the driver.
If the matter continues to fall on deaf ears, get a signed competitor petition drawn up and submit it (ideally via a Solicitor) to the MSA.
If that is the motivation, no-one in their right minds 'cures cheats' by prejudicing the safety of absolutely everyone, especially when it might not be intended cheating at all e.g. something goes wrong on the way into a chicane.
Start by applying the rules and if that fails, do something with the kerbs to make them more punishing on the car, not the driver.
If the matter continues to fall on deaf ears, get a signed competitor petition drawn up and submit it (ideally via a Solicitor) to the MSA.
I remember being at CC a several years ago, when plastic marker posts were inserted into slots in the kerbs at the chicanes. At drivers briefing we were told that the CofC would take a dim view of anyone damaging the posts, which were little more than strips of curved plastic. It didn't work.
So clipping the chicanes has been a problem for a long time, they have tried everything else and are reduced to this heavier sanction. If the clipping can be argued to be dangerous in itself, then justified.
John
So clipping the chicanes has been a problem for a long time, they have tried everything else and are reduced to this heavier sanction. If the clipping can be argued to be dangerous in itself, then justified.
John
Raced this set-up at Combe today-lashed tyres to deter straight lining. It isn't dangerous. It is the only proper deterrent. If you hit the tyre barriers you've very little recourse for complaint. It is due to your own actions or interaction with others.
Today was sstreaming wet and we had a 36 car grid. If ever those were the ingredients for a mishap - then there it is folks.
Today was sstreaming wet and we had a 36 car grid. If ever those were the ingredients for a mishap - then there it is folks.
I'm with Simon - hitting one of these in a car would be annoying/frustrating, but in an Open GT/FF1600 it would be at best highly dangerous and worst could even potentially be fatal.
There are regs to punish corner cutting, and better ways to enforce (driving standards marshalls) or deter ('sausage' curbs) them then putting a wall directly in the path of a vehicle that could well be out of control.
There are regs to punish corner cutting, and better ways to enforce (driving standards marshalls) or deter ('sausage' curbs) them then putting a wall directly in the path of a vehicle that could well be out of control.
Count Johnny said:
Blimey, Trev! Can I get a job as your solicitor?
PM me your rates 
But enough of the jesting I suggest; it's a serious subject else Simon wouldn't have taken the time and trouble to post it - at length and in detail compared to his usual famously 'brief and right to the point' posts.
The Track licence is issued by the MSA, I would suggest the the MSA are content or the track licence would not be issued. Have look at regulations 1.15.18 and 2.2.3 on page 88 of the Blue Book.
A similar type of tyre barrier has been used on corner apexes in WTCC meetings as sanctioned by FIA.
I should add that I have no connection with the MSA or Castle Combe but I have 2 sons who race in FF1600 and over 30 years as marshal current grade Post Chief.
A similar type of tyre barrier has been used on corner apexes in WTCC meetings as sanctioned by FIA.
I should add that I have no connection with the MSA or Castle Combe but I have 2 sons who race in FF1600 and over 30 years as marshal current grade Post Chief.
Firefox1 said:
The Track licence is issued by the MSA, I would suggest the the MSA are content or the track licence would not be issued. Have look at regulations 1.15.18 and 2.2.3 on page 88 of the Blue Book.
A similar type of tyre barrier has been used on corner apexes in WTCC meetings as sanctioned by FIA.
I should add that I have no connection with the MSA or Castle Combe but I have 2 sons who race in FF1600 and over 30 years as marshal current grade Post Chief.
That's why I asked what the MSA had said when asked. Presumably as Simon says that Combe say it was an MSA requirement and he then goes on to say that nobody will give any answers then he's spoken to the MSA about it. A similar type of tyre barrier has been used on corner apexes in WTCC meetings as sanctioned by FIA.
I should add that I have no connection with the MSA or Castle Combe but I have 2 sons who race in FF1600 and over 30 years as marshal current grade Post Chief.
I watched the Combe footage and it didn't look problematic to me, it certainly stopped drivers straightlining the chicane and avoided the risk of a car straightlining the chicane and colliding with a car as they rejoined. There were a lot of drivers who struggled to keep four wheels on the track generally at a number of points on the circuit.
Firefox1 said:
The Track licence is issued by the MSA, I would suggest the the MSA are content or the track licence would not be issued. Have look at regulations 1.15.18 and 2.2.3 on page 88 of the Blue Book.
A similar type of tyre barrier has been used on corner apexes in WTCC meetings as sanctioned by FIA.
I should add that I have no connection with the MSA or Castle Combe but I have 2 sons who race in FF1600 and over 30 years as marshal current grade Post Chief.
Guessing you meant 1.5.18? agreed, they should have signed it off. As Drivers we'd like to know why... I think it's a reasonable question given that a number of us have serious reservations about it's placement.A similar type of tyre barrier has been used on corner apexes in WTCC meetings as sanctioned by FIA.
I should add that I have no connection with the MSA or Castle Combe but I have 2 sons who race in FF1600 and over 30 years as marshal current grade Post Chief.
The arguments about what WTCC do/don't do is pretty moot - I'm not sure they do (at least, not on anything other than street circuits) and even then... they are a heavy, closed roof car. Simon and I are driving lighter, open topped vehicles, and likely with faster apex speeds (much higher in Simon's case).
They are also completely uneccesary and likely a contributing factor in the pile-up at the start of FF1600 Race 2.
Piglet said:
I watched the Combe footage and it didn't look problematic to me, it certainly stopped drivers straightlining the chicane and avoided the risk of a car straightlining the chicane and colliding with a car as they rejoined. There were a lot of drivers who struggled to keep four wheels on the track generally at a number of points on the circuit.
Again, 'Sausage Kerbing' or penalties can resolve the straightlining. Nothing good at all can come from a car hitting one of these and coming to a dead stop on the racing line. Even (god forbid) overshooting these and hitting a vehicle on the other side will result in less total damage as the vehicles would be moving in the same direction at a lower relative closing speed than a car and a stationary object.Last year I took avoiding action and cut across that exact point at the Esses.... if I had the same accident again I would have been forced to either collide with the competitor or hit the barrier at speed.
Penalise the corner cutters, but don't put our cars and health at risk to do so.
splitpin said:
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I don't disagree with Simon in that they may not be appropriate in their location but I would be interested in his opinion of an alternative.
When I started out as a marshal we had "catch fencing" to arrest cars before they hit the sleepers, after several fatalities particularly karts at Brands and Silverstone we then went to gravel traps. After a few years the powers that be decided that gravel traps need removing as cars skipped across like skimming stones before hitting the wall, case in point being one M Schumacher at Stowe. So now we have vast expanses of tarmac which allows a spinning car to stop be contact with the barriers.
I noticed that for BTCC Thruxton chicane had looked to be "Recticel" type barriers similar to those used on the exit of Goddards at Donington, perhaps that is one answer.
That fact remains that the innocent will be punished in the pursuit of penalising those guilty of seeking an advantage by corner cutting.
Next time you are at Silverstone Simon I'd be happy to debate this one over a cup of coffee.
When I started out as a marshal we had "catch fencing" to arrest cars before they hit the sleepers, after several fatalities particularly karts at Brands and Silverstone we then went to gravel traps. After a few years the powers that be decided that gravel traps need removing as cars skipped across like skimming stones before hitting the wall, case in point being one M Schumacher at Stowe. So now we have vast expanses of tarmac which allows a spinning car to stop be contact with the barriers.
I noticed that for BTCC Thruxton chicane had looked to be "Recticel" type barriers similar to those used on the exit of Goddards at Donington, perhaps that is one answer.
That fact remains that the innocent will be punished in the pursuit of penalising those guilty of seeking an advantage by corner cutting.
Next time you are at Silverstone Simon I'd be happy to debate this one over a cup of coffee.
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