Wet Racing/qualifying
Discussion
Can anyone recommend a book or at least a book that dedicates a good proportion of the book to understanding how to qualify and race in the wet well?
Im in my first season and although i feel like im making good progress at circuits in the dry(some may be along to say that i should keep out of the armco and tyre wall in a minute) I am far from my best in the wet, i understand the physics of why staying off the racing line in the wet due to the rubber deposits but I need to read and understand what can be expected of the tyre.
I have read speed secrets but this only touches on wet racing and I would like to understand more. I have searched for wet racing and i have found a book called "The Art of Racing in the Rain" which from the title had me believe that this was the book i was looking for, WRONG although after reading a few reviews I have bought the book as it looks like a good read and i love dogs but not the book i wanted. So...
Even internet articles would be helpful.
thanks
Im in my first season and although i feel like im making good progress at circuits in the dry(some may be along to say that i should keep out of the armco and tyre wall in a minute) I am far from my best in the wet, i understand the physics of why staying off the racing line in the wet due to the rubber deposits but I need to read and understand what can be expected of the tyre.
I have read speed secrets but this only touches on wet racing and I would like to understand more. I have searched for wet racing and i have found a book called "The Art of Racing in the Rain" which from the title had me believe that this was the book i was looking for, WRONG although after reading a few reviews I have bought the book as it looks like a good read and i love dogs but not the book i wanted. So...
Even internet articles would be helpful.
thanks
Not sure of any books and you can read and you can read as much as you like but its more about practice and feel for what the cars doing.
I always went well in the wet, having done quite a lot of karting. If you can, try to be super smooth, easy with power and brake application both on and off. As I said before plenty of practice will get you a feel for what the car is doing underneath you.
I always went well in the wet, having done quite a lot of karting. If you can, try to be super smooth, easy with power and brake application both on and off. As I said before plenty of practice will get you a feel for what the car is doing underneath you.
Hi,
Make sure you soften the car off in terms of dampers and ARBs, up with tyre pressures.
If you have adjustable brake bias, wind to the back a little.
Work the car hard if you get a green flag lap and dependent upon temperature of track/air tape up part of any ducts you may have to keep engine and brake temps good.
Rainx on screen and visor.
Imagine driving the car with a hot mug of coffee on your lap, smoothly does it everywhere in terms of braking, throttle application and steering input.
Ensuring your car is set up well in terms of corner weights etc will make it easier too.
Cheers,
Josh
Make sure you soften the car off in terms of dampers and ARBs, up with tyre pressures.
If you have adjustable brake bias, wind to the back a little.
Work the car hard if you get a green flag lap and dependent upon temperature of track/air tape up part of any ducts you may have to keep engine and brake temps good.
Rainx on screen and visor.
Imagine driving the car with a hot mug of coffee on your lap, smoothly does it everywhere in terms of braking, throttle application and steering input.
Ensuring your car is set up well in terms of corner weights etc will make it easier too.
Cheers,
Josh
Thanks for the help, not you Jo!, I race against Jo so she only wants me to go slow, wet or dry! ha
The car runs well and its corner weighted frequently due to serious events i keep putting the car through. I agree that experience will be the best learning tool yet iv been lucky this year so far with the weather, I think i have only qualified once in the rain and managed to get a quick lap in before the rain came. When it did though i let off as i couldnt get much grip and thought that i had probably put a quick lap in early enough to see me through to a fairly good starting position. I looked at the qualifying times of the experienced guys(Jo wasnt there) after, they were setting slightly quicker times than my dry time through the last few laps when the rain was coming and the track fairly wet. The gents im referring too have been racing 5-15 years though.
The car runs well and its corner weighted frequently due to serious events i keep putting the car through. I agree that experience will be the best learning tool yet iv been lucky this year so far with the weather, I think i have only qualified once in the rain and managed to get a quick lap in before the rain came. When it did though i let off as i couldnt get much grip and thought that i had probably put a quick lap in early enough to see me through to a fairly good starting position. I looked at the qualifying times of the experienced guys(Jo wasnt there) after, they were setting slightly quicker times than my dry time through the last few laps when the rain was coming and the track fairly wet. The gents im referring too have been racing 5-15 years though.
'Drive to win' by Carroll Smith is excellent, not just for racing in the rain (for which it does have a chapter)but also general racing advice. Some parts are very american (a section on oval racing etc) but its well worth a read.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Drive-Win-Essential-Guide-...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Drive-Win-Essential-Guide-...
dellow said:
If there is a outdoor cart track near you, next time it's raining gibve them a call and see if they have an arrive and drive event on, turn up and get some practice in.
I don't agree that this will help driving a car in the wet. Cars are to be steered and braked smoothly whereas a kart needs a very aggressive full lock turn in to lift the inside rear and you cannot afford to be gentle on the brakes. This type of driving is not to be advised in a car!!! Driving karts in the wet is great fun, but involves totally different techniques to car racing. drakart said:
I don't agree that this will help driving a car in the wet. Cars are to be steered and braked smoothly whereas a kart needs a very aggressive full lock turn in to lift the inside rear and you cannot afford to be gentle on the brakes. This type of driving is not to be advised in a car!!! Driving karts in the wet is great fun, but involves totally different techniques to car racing.
I agree with this but it can help a driver learn how to 'feel' for where grip is on a wet circuit. In this way it would be very beneficial but indeed the driving style is not to be copied in a car!.Bund,
Assuming this is in the mega grad? To enlighten others on here that may not know they run on yokohama AO48 track tyres wet or dry.
Jonathan miller had this issue in your class a coupe of years ago - top 10 in the dry and at the back in the wet.
I coach a number of drivers that have this problem. Whilst wet driving requires a lot of confidence you also have to look at the approach of the driver and what they are trying to achieve.
Let's take an example of 2 drivers, Neil Delargy in ginetta g40 and Tim Abbott in the caterham supersports. Neil raced caterhams previously but is in his first season of racing for over 10 years and the first time on slicks / wets. Tim competed in the caterham academy in 2010 and had 'jumped' a year (academy usually go to roadsport b) so that he can have team support.
I watched Neil at brands hatch in a wet qualifying session. After 10 minutes of qualifying Neil was 7th and within a second of pole. The track eased off and as the track dried he went down to about 18th.
As the grip level came up Neil was still braking at the same points, his thought process being to concentrate on getting the power down cleanly for a fast exit.
Neil was suffering massive understeer from the apex to exit. He was slowing too early leading to not enough nose weight at the apex. If he tried to use the throttle hard enough to make the back comce round a bit the car would have a massive twitch as the rear tyre tried to cope with sharing cornering and acceleration.
It should be noted that Neil also suffers this problem in the dry to a lesser extent
We discussed this in the post session debrief and my ai with Neil in future training is to change his mentality for increasing speed. You make the most time from braking to apex, not from apex to exit. We will be working on braking later and carrying speed to the apex. We are also only interested in when the throttle is at 100% on exit. It's no good Putting 20% throttle on earlier to then be 0.5 seconds later to full power.
Tim isn't confident in the wet and had always been a lot slower than his team mates in the rain. Iwas at oulton park with him last week and thankfully it rained so I got to go in car with him.
Tims car control is fine as far as steering input is concerned. He caught all slides easily. No spins. He brakes well and deals with locked wheels without major drama. So why is he slow?
Tim only deals with the car sliding by steering into the skid. This is very inefficient for lap time. To get the best from a car you need the rear to be 'dancing' on the edge of oversteer from turn in to apex. If you steer into the skid you use a lot of road so instead you use the throttle to gently press the rear into the ground and control the level of oversteer. This will need very little steering input (baring a major slide) and will enable you to have the car pointed to corner exit much earlier and with more road to use.
I can also give you a procedure that I use for analysing grip to figure the best wet lines but typing this much on an iPad has made my fingers numb!
Happy to go over this further and apologise for spelling mistakes (blaming iPad!)
Edited to add that Tim and I will be making good use of his old academy tyres and an airfield so I can teach him to correct oversteer using the throttle.
Assuming this is in the mega grad? To enlighten others on here that may not know they run on yokohama AO48 track tyres wet or dry.
Jonathan miller had this issue in your class a coupe of years ago - top 10 in the dry and at the back in the wet.
I coach a number of drivers that have this problem. Whilst wet driving requires a lot of confidence you also have to look at the approach of the driver and what they are trying to achieve.
Let's take an example of 2 drivers, Neil Delargy in ginetta g40 and Tim Abbott in the caterham supersports. Neil raced caterhams previously but is in his first season of racing for over 10 years and the first time on slicks / wets. Tim competed in the caterham academy in 2010 and had 'jumped' a year (academy usually go to roadsport b) so that he can have team support.
I watched Neil at brands hatch in a wet qualifying session. After 10 minutes of qualifying Neil was 7th and within a second of pole. The track eased off and as the track dried he went down to about 18th.
As the grip level came up Neil was still braking at the same points, his thought process being to concentrate on getting the power down cleanly for a fast exit.
Neil was suffering massive understeer from the apex to exit. He was slowing too early leading to not enough nose weight at the apex. If he tried to use the throttle hard enough to make the back comce round a bit the car would have a massive twitch as the rear tyre tried to cope with sharing cornering and acceleration.
It should be noted that Neil also suffers this problem in the dry to a lesser extent
We discussed this in the post session debrief and my ai with Neil in future training is to change his mentality for increasing speed. You make the most time from braking to apex, not from apex to exit. We will be working on braking later and carrying speed to the apex. We are also only interested in when the throttle is at 100% on exit. It's no good Putting 20% throttle on earlier to then be 0.5 seconds later to full power.
Tim isn't confident in the wet and had always been a lot slower than his team mates in the rain. Iwas at oulton park with him last week and thankfully it rained so I got to go in car with him.
Tims car control is fine as far as steering input is concerned. He caught all slides easily. No spins. He brakes well and deals with locked wheels without major drama. So why is he slow?
Tim only deals with the car sliding by steering into the skid. This is very inefficient for lap time. To get the best from a car you need the rear to be 'dancing' on the edge of oversteer from turn in to apex. If you steer into the skid you use a lot of road so instead you use the throttle to gently press the rear into the ground and control the level of oversteer. This will need very little steering input (baring a major slide) and will enable you to have the car pointed to corner exit much earlier and with more road to use.
I can also give you a procedure that I use for analysing grip to figure the best wet lines but typing this much on an iPad has made my fingers numb!
Happy to go over this further and apologise for spelling mistakes (blaming iPad!)
Edited to add that Tim and I will be making good use of his old academy tyres and an airfield so I can teach him to correct oversteer using the throttle.
Racing Ben is giving some excellent advise there, soak it up!
I love the wet / slippery conditions & tend to go very well in them too....
Your personal levels of feel for the car underneath you is paramount followed by adapting your technique to the wet. What I tend to do is run into corners faster than most of the other guys whilst still on the brakes, concentrate on maintaining corner speed rather than over slowing the car then using a heavy & upsetting use of the cars throttle.
I love the wet / slippery conditions & tend to go very well in them too....
Your personal levels of feel for the car underneath you is paramount followed by adapting your technique to the wet. What I tend to do is run into corners faster than most of the other guys whilst still on the brakes, concentrate on maintaining corner speed rather than over slowing the car then using a heavy & upsetting use of the cars throttle.
Nice post Ben. Also nice to know that Tim has been practicing - I'll be using that as an excuse if he's ahead of me at Oulton!
The key thing I learnt from a day in the wet at Mallory with Simon Mason is that you need some throttle to keep the back under control. It can be quite strange to get onto the throttle as the car is sliding away from the apex though ...
Jez
The key thing I learnt from a day in the wet at Mallory with Simon Mason is that you need some throttle to keep the back under control. It can be quite strange to get onto the throttle as the car is sliding away from the apex though ...
Jez
Edited by Z3MCJez on Saturday 30th July 19:22
Ok basic procedure to find grip levels.
First of all brakes. Warm your pads up and then find some space to do a brake test. You want to brake form reasonable speed - 70 mph and try two things. First is to find your locking pressure, progressively squeeze the brake until the brakes lock. You now know how much retardation to expect and have a good datum for when the wheels will lock.
Next is to find how fast you can press the pedal. In the dry you can switch between throttle and brake as quickly as possible - look for .4 seconds between full power and full brake on a logger with g sensors such as a DL1 - .5 -.6 on a vbox which calculates g force from speed change. Interestingly caring a passenger adds .2 to this figure on both.
Experiment with the speed that you press the brake pedal down. You still want to transfer your foot from throttle to brake as fast as possible. You need to press the brake to locking point each time. Too fast and the brakes will lock short of the pressure / g force that youve set as you're datum in the paragraph above.
Next is to analyse you're grip in cornering. You need to analyse grip on the racing line and off. Start with the racing line. Brake sensibly for the corner and go to a speed that you're happy with. Balance the throttle early and then wind on the steering progressively. You need to wind the front tyres up to and past the point of peak grip. You are in effect drawing a graph in your mind of g force vs steering angle. The g force also corresponds to the weight of the steering.
Importantly to make the above work you have to hold the wheel lightly and keep your arms relaxed. Tense arms will lead to a lack of feel and you won't get the information that you need.
Keep the car in a gentle understeer / from tyre at / slightly over the limit until after the apex of the bend. Now accelerate reasonably firmly making the car understeer a little more and wind off the lock. You're looking to draw a new graph for grip / steering weight for the now less loaded front tyres. As you wind the lock off and the front tyres at peak you may get a snap from the rear. You now have a good idea of how quickly and a what cornering force you can expect the rear to move about on corner exit. Leave yourself a bit of space on exit to accommodate for this.
Now do the above on a wider entry. Remember that when playing with we lines you need to pretty much have the steering off by the time the car reaches the racing line. As you hit it you will feel the steering go light. That's the warning to get lock off before the rear gets there!
With wet lines you are going a much longer way around the corner. This means you need to be going faster to make use of the extra grip. Quite often you find that you're braking points are not that far off the dry ones as you're going so much further in to the bend.
Turning needs to be done on a trailing throttle - no brake and no power at all. You can get away with a little trail braking but nothing like the dry. Balance the throttle and you'll understeer. Throttle is used to settle the car if the rear steps out to far as in my post above
The slower the car goes, the more you can steer!
Remember your power understeer procedure! Reduce lock first, then reduce throttle if you cant get enough steering with the reduced lock ( a favourite is to wind to max grip on trailing throttle then not reduce the lock as the weight comes off and therefore the steering angle that gives peak front grip is now less. Full grip in trailing throttle may only by 80% grip in acceleration with the tyre now scrubbing across the Tarmac. You'll feel a good amount of vibration from the front tyres in this situation.
You need to be comfortable not being on the racing line and you also need to have your vision sorted. No focussing on turn in points (peripheral bison only) and making sure that you're eyes are central and you're turning your head to look through the corner. You get a much more acute sense of vehicle rotation with this vision method and will therefore have more confidence to enter the corners faster and correct the car more efficiently and consistently.
For an example of the vision method look at this video of me driving at silverstone. The camera is on the bridge of my nose (eBay spy sunglasses)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pEijXitTHI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Hope that all makes sense ! I will try and dig out some wet video and data to give some more info. May be a few days as a full family day tomorrow and then off to spa until Wednesday. Will try and look tomorrow evening.
First of all brakes. Warm your pads up and then find some space to do a brake test. You want to brake form reasonable speed - 70 mph and try two things. First is to find your locking pressure, progressively squeeze the brake until the brakes lock. You now know how much retardation to expect and have a good datum for when the wheels will lock.
Next is to find how fast you can press the pedal. In the dry you can switch between throttle and brake as quickly as possible - look for .4 seconds between full power and full brake on a logger with g sensors such as a DL1 - .5 -.6 on a vbox which calculates g force from speed change. Interestingly caring a passenger adds .2 to this figure on both.
Experiment with the speed that you press the brake pedal down. You still want to transfer your foot from throttle to brake as fast as possible. You need to press the brake to locking point each time. Too fast and the brakes will lock short of the pressure / g force that youve set as you're datum in the paragraph above.
Next is to analyse you're grip in cornering. You need to analyse grip on the racing line and off. Start with the racing line. Brake sensibly for the corner and go to a speed that you're happy with. Balance the throttle early and then wind on the steering progressively. You need to wind the front tyres up to and past the point of peak grip. You are in effect drawing a graph in your mind of g force vs steering angle. The g force also corresponds to the weight of the steering.
Importantly to make the above work you have to hold the wheel lightly and keep your arms relaxed. Tense arms will lead to a lack of feel and you won't get the information that you need.
Keep the car in a gentle understeer / from tyre at / slightly over the limit until after the apex of the bend. Now accelerate reasonably firmly making the car understeer a little more and wind off the lock. You're looking to draw a new graph for grip / steering weight for the now less loaded front tyres. As you wind the lock off and the front tyres at peak you may get a snap from the rear. You now have a good idea of how quickly and a what cornering force you can expect the rear to move about on corner exit. Leave yourself a bit of space on exit to accommodate for this.
Now do the above on a wider entry. Remember that when playing with we lines you need to pretty much have the steering off by the time the car reaches the racing line. As you hit it you will feel the steering go light. That's the warning to get lock off before the rear gets there!
With wet lines you are going a much longer way around the corner. This means you need to be going faster to make use of the extra grip. Quite often you find that you're braking points are not that far off the dry ones as you're going so much further in to the bend.
Turning needs to be done on a trailing throttle - no brake and no power at all. You can get away with a little trail braking but nothing like the dry. Balance the throttle and you'll understeer. Throttle is used to settle the car if the rear steps out to far as in my post above
The slower the car goes, the more you can steer!
Remember your power understeer procedure! Reduce lock first, then reduce throttle if you cant get enough steering with the reduced lock ( a favourite is to wind to max grip on trailing throttle then not reduce the lock as the weight comes off and therefore the steering angle that gives peak front grip is now less. Full grip in trailing throttle may only by 80% grip in acceleration with the tyre now scrubbing across the Tarmac. You'll feel a good amount of vibration from the front tyres in this situation.
You need to be comfortable not being on the racing line and you also need to have your vision sorted. No focussing on turn in points (peripheral bison only) and making sure that you're eyes are central and you're turning your head to look through the corner. You get a much more acute sense of vehicle rotation with this vision method and will therefore have more confidence to enter the corners faster and correct the car more efficiently and consistently.
For an example of the vision method look at this video of me driving at silverstone. The camera is on the bridge of my nose (eBay spy sunglasses)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pEijXitTHI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Hope that all makes sense ! I will try and dig out some wet video and data to give some more info. May be a few days as a full family day tomorrow and then off to spa until Wednesday. Will try and look tomorrow evening.
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