Where Have All The Racing Cars Gone?
Discussion
Dewi 2 said:
Tim Dodwell (a well known club racer, who still races his bought when new, 1966 grey/white Mini Cooper) started the Road Saloons racing series in 1983.
The concept was low cost racing, restricted by driving on the road to each event. Those circumstances required tuning limitations, because very highly tuned engines would not usually be very suitable for use on public roads.
The series became so successful, that the classes were split into two races for Budget Road Saloons and Super Road Saloons..
All went well for a number of years, but eventually the Super competitors wanted trailers to be allowed.
You can guess that greater spending began and the series gradually came to an end.
There was a revival of the low-cost saloon racing concept in 2003 named Highway Saloons, but by then times had changed and that race series ended in 2005.
After about 40 years, Tim's Mini Cooper has not gone. Now competing in the CTCRC Pre-1966 championship, his latest event was at Brands Hatch a week ago. As almost the only competitor in that series still driving to and from the circuit, what was once a consistently competitive mid-field runner, now requires wet races to avoid being a tail-ender, because the engine has not been further developed. Spend lots of money and all those old cars become faster. You might expect that when racing costs more, many cars would be gone, but at present the CTCRC grids seem to increasingly be well supported.
I'm tempted to go this route, as the HSCC package allows you to drive a nice variety of circuits and actually forms a series, where as people like HRDC tick neither of these boxes IMO.
Dewi 2 said:
Chunkychucky said:
Yeah CTCRC do seem one of the better ones, the Historic Racing Saloons Register (run/organise the pre-66 touring cars that run with HSCC) also announced this year a group of separate classes for metal-panelled cars that can now run with them. Before this I was strongly considering the Pre-66 CTCRC series.
I'm tempted to go this route, as the HSCC package allows you to drive a nice variety of circuits and actually forms a series, where as people like HRDC tick neither of these boxes IMO.
I'm tempted to go this route, as the HSCC package allows you to drive a nice variety of circuits and actually forms a series, where as people like HRDC tick neither of these boxes IMO.
I might be wrong, but I tend to think of HSCC and HSCC as being the type of historic saloons that race in the Goodwood Revival.
In other words, expensive and extremely fast.
On occasions, visiting Mini Cooper S cars have come from other race series, to race in a CTCRC event and have easily achieved overall wins.
As the competing cars in that race are selected by Julius Thurgood (or used to be, at least) then you have to 'pay a tribute' in the form of doing particular track/test days at Goodwood and competing in the HRDC races he organises. It's a pain as it's a meeting i'd like to compete at, but just can't be f
ked jumping through the hoops of high entry fees and odd circuit choices (Lydden Hill for example 
).It appears i'd not be alone in this, as merely a couple of years ago HRDC were able to field an entire grid full of pre-60s touring cars and put on a decent spectacle of a race. Now their races seem to be amalgamations of all sorts of series and types of car, another reason why I wouldn't want to compete with them. Just my thoughts
ChevronB19 said:
HSCC HRSR (acronym hell!) has the fantastic advantage of being surrounded by other races with cars from all eras as well. So it’s great to spectate *and* race. Expensive tyres, yes, but they are *far* more fun to drive on M sections than on modern compounds. Unfortunately grids are low at the moment, but the metal panel class will hopefully help. Entry and membership fees are way cheaper than HRDC too.
Yeah I grew up going to HSCC meetings and loved the fact you could watch historic touring cars racing so closely (Chris Sanders' LUV12, Graham Dodd's Mk2 Jag, Simon Garrad's BMW 2000 and latterly Dan Cox's 105e etc.) whilst also being entertained by lovely historic F5000 cars and the eclectic roadsports series. I've not tried my car on anything other than CR65s as yet but agreed they're great fun, and the lower costs in addition with that new 'Economy' class are what's steering me in the direction of competing with HSCC. Great variety of tracks too - Cadwell, Oulton, Croft, shame the HRSR are not invited to the Brands GP meeting too! Was hoping to get along to Cadwell this weekend to spectate but unfortunately unavoidably detained..
Oilchange said:
Someone else needs to make these type of tyres and charge £50 a corner.
If all the race cars turn up with non dunlop tyres, what are they going to do, disqualify all of them? No cars on the grid?
Clearly they have had their palms greased.
Someone else producing something similar would be great. Given someone like Julian Majzub, who is both owner of Blockley Tyres and a talented historic racer, I would have thought that they could easily produce a racing crossply tyre in sizes 10-15 inches for half the price Dunlop charges. It’s a shame no one has taken up the challenge, it’s not like the Dunlops are of exceeding quality - a race preparer I know has to send back >20% of the tyres he gets delivered because they’re that poor you can’t even balance them up once mounted to a rim. It speaks volumes that Dunlop accept them back for exchange with no quibbles… If all the race cars turn up with non dunlop tyres, what are they going to do, disqualify all of them? No cars on the grid?
Clearly they have had their palms greased.
Just look at the amount of these historic racers with tonnes of wheel weights clinging to the rim, and 99% of the time this will be on recently produced wheels. As it seems a rare thing to be done, I thought i'd sing the praises of the Classic Touring Car Racing Club's meeting that I attended @ Donington Park on the last weekend in March. The club managed to gather 30-ish pre-66 touring cars on the grid for 2 races over the weekend, along with a few other well-supported series, and it was a great spectacle to see; amidst the news that clubs like HSCC are struggling for entries to some of their series, it was heartening to see so many likeminded enthusiasts gathering to compete together, and the paddock atmosphere was genuinely friendly and approachable - something i've not experienced at even a historic club meeting for a number of years.
The club shared the venue for the weekend with some form of Britcar series, so at points there were modern GT3 cars in the pitlane with full on fuelling rigs etc, but it made a nice change to see such a number of historic racing saloons on the grid together at the same time - on the whole the racing was clean and closely fought too
I also saw on YouTube there was a meeting at Donington Park a few weeks earlier with a miscellany of 60s sports cars and saloons, with Elan 26Rs and 'lightweight' E Types overtaking Jaguar Mk2 saloons - not sure of the appeal of competing in such a 'run what you brung' series, but it was well supported also and good to see so many cars competing there also
The club shared the venue for the weekend with some form of Britcar series, so at points there were modern GT3 cars in the pitlane with full on fuelling rigs etc, but it made a nice change to see such a number of historic racing saloons on the grid together at the same time - on the whole the racing was clean and closely fought too
I also saw on YouTube there was a meeting at Donington Park a few weeks earlier with a miscellany of 60s sports cars and saloons, with Elan 26Rs and 'lightweight' E Types overtaking Jaguar Mk2 saloons - not sure of the appeal of competing in such a 'run what you brung' series, but it was well supported also and good to see so many cars competing there also Wow - over 2 years since I started this thread... and still numbers seem to be dwindling on various clubs' grids, the number of races being lost to form multi-class/car type 'races' increasing and more importantly, the costs keep spiralling! A precursory glance at an entry for Brands Hatch in August - £895 for 30 minutes practice + 45 minute race, plus £75 per driver that isn't a member of the club (£250 club membership costs ffs), and then those Dunlop crossplies at £950 for a set of 4... It was interesting speaking to one of the instructors who races in historics when I re-did my ARDS test earlier this year that the views I hold were not only similar to his own, but also echoed among people that he had spoken with about the current situation; interestingly (and more relevant to my interests) he also alluded to the fact that Julius Thurgood doesn't hold as much weight with regard to the 'selection committee' for the St Mary's Trophy @ Goodwood, no further information was forthcoming on the matter but given how long it's been Julius' pantomime it was intriguing news 
So, to those with historic racing cars that no longer compete - what's stopping you getting them out of the garage and on to the black stuff?
I recently did a trackday @ Castle Combe for pre-2000 cars (organised by Slip & Grip), and must say it's the best on-track experience i've had in recent memory - not something I thought i'd be saying of a trackday!
Organisation, participants and variety of machinery in attendance were all great, the weather was a bit hit and miss in the morning but it just added to the fun! In the afternoon I went out and inadvertently ended up doing >20 laps back to back, during which I had a ding dong with a chap in a Golf VR6, another with a chap in a 105E, and think during the whole session I had to let one faster car pass; it was honestly so refreshing that it made me see that trackdays can actually be fun - would consider doing another 'older cars' trackday for sure.
So, to those with historic racing cars that no longer compete - what's stopping you getting them out of the garage and on to the black stuff?
I recently did a trackday @ Castle Combe for pre-2000 cars (organised by Slip & Grip), and must say it's the best on-track experience i've had in recent memory - not something I thought i'd be saying of a trackday!
Organisation, participants and variety of machinery in attendance were all great, the weather was a bit hit and miss in the morning but it just added to the fun! In the afternoon I went out and inadvertently ended up doing >20 laps back to back, during which I had a ding dong with a chap in a Golf VR6, another with a chap in a 105E, and think during the whole session I had to let one faster car pass; it was honestly so refreshing that it made me see that trackdays can actually be fun - would consider doing another 'older cars' trackday for sure. CanoeSniffer said:
coppice said:
And CSCC Anglesey this weekend , where I'm a steward. Shame about Saturday's weather - but it is summer , and Wales ...
That’ll be me doing my rain dances all week. Racing on Saturday with the Jags, hoping for a damp one so I can have a go at the faster cars. Sorry!
Cheers for the CSCC recommendations - Classic K appears to be the most suitable (would need to read the regulations to see what's going on), Swinging 60s appears to have a couple of A40 saloon cars entered - again would need to read the regs. Struggling to differentiate between the 2 series though, seems a lot of overlap with near-identical cars entered in either race?
dhutch said:
Both valid replies, and I don't want to derail the thread, especially as said this isn't the time for me to take the plunge, but still something I think about. But yeah, its surprised me how tight money has become. Nursery fees are a chunk of that, and are still doing the tail ends of house renovations, but the price of everything has really rocketed.
I feel the same with regard to costs - when I first started building my car the CR65 tyres were £400ish for a set of 4, they now set you back £950-1,000 
As mentioned previously, although fun to drive on they appear to be made of cheese, happily throwing chunks of tread off through the course of a race - where as one poster got 7 races to their £120 slicks, the CR65s we use would potentially need to be replaced 2 or 3 times through the same lifespan! Hence my interest in running with someone like CTCRC who allow any tyre from MSA List 1A, allowing something as cheap as Uniroyal Rainsports to be used - not only helping on price, but also the fact they will last 10 times longer than the Dunlop crossplies. Interesting suggestions have been mentioned - 2CVs would be great fun I imagine and something that would interest me, though unfortunately I grew up on a diet of 1950-80s cars, and thus very little else interests me. I helped a friend when they raced in the BMW Compact Cup, and another when they did the Caterham Academy series, but aside from helping my friends and cheering them on then the racing had little appeal for me despite the good, close racing happening on track. I've probably made a rod for my own back with regards to building a car for historic motorsport, I could sell up and swallow a £10-15k loss on build costs vs. possible selling price, but then I built the car because I like A35s and wanted to race one; should my desire/dream have to be sacrificed because someone at Dunlop seems to enjoy spinning gold from s
t and profiteering from sub-standard tyres that most historic series want you to run? I'd rather join the masses and stick my car in a garage, depriving a series organiser of exorbitant entry fees, in the hope that people in a position to do so take a good look at the way the sport is heading, and do something to remedy the situation. It's good that cheap racing is still available, just a shame that 20 years down the line my chosen avenue is no longer as such
ChevronB19 said:
Tyre cost and entry fee/membership cost, and to an extent the ‘arms race’ (which has always existed, but much more intense now historics are trendy). The 100e is now a very compromised weekend fun car, but it’s staying and will come out again at some point.
Personally I’d rather have a good race at the back than a crap race at the front, I’m in it for fun, not pots.
Instead I have bought a Van Diemen RF99. Much cheaper running costs, and much cheaper entry fees (3x 20 minute races for £495). Tyres from F3 teams, only used once, much cheaper.
I still maintain that Dunlop’s are great fun though!
Glad to hear the 100e is still about, would be awesome seeing it 'in the wild' out on the road Personally I’d rather have a good race at the back than a crap race at the front, I’m in it for fun, not pots.
Instead I have bought a Van Diemen RF99. Much cheaper running costs, and much cheaper entry fees (3x 20 minute races for £495). Tyres from F3 teams, only used once, much cheaper.
I still maintain that Dunlop’s are great fun though!
Do you use the Dunlops on the road? I was tempted to but every time I go to get the car out my old man lambasts me as the tyres have 'for race use' on the sidewalls, and he reckons the BiB would take a dim view on it Agreed, for me the joy comes from trying to hunt someone down, work out where you're quicker or if you can brake later, not that arsed about making it on to the podium! Fingers crossed when you next get the car out i'll still have the A35 and we can have a ding dong on our own at the back 
Interesting re: the single seater, is that in a Monoposto series or something? I've also seen people using old F3 cars in sprints/hillclimbs so they're obviously versatile and I imagine a COMPLETELY different driving experience to a 50s saloon car on crossply tyres! Beyond getting aroused at the thought of a F5000 car on straight through exhausts i've not really considered a single seater, so it's something different for me to look in to.
ChevronB19 said:
Yes, 100e is still around. In terms of (extremely minimal) road use, it is hell to drive. No torque whatsoever below 5k rpm, so you can’t drive it ‘gently’, but it does make people smile. We put it on road tyres, as I was worried that at least technically it is 3 points per ‘illegal’ tyre, so basically road licence gone. I think your old man is right in that regard, we just reversed situations, I was a ‘young’ man advising (telling, to be honest) an old man, ha!
Single seaters are as you say ‘versatile’, and as FF1800 (which is wot mine is) they have what in essence aren’t highly stressed engines, but they don’t sound as good as a ‘proper’ race engine.but that’s what makes it ‘cheap’. I will race it in Monoposto. I like watching hillclimbs, but it’s a very different skill set to what I have.
If you look at the ‘options after first race car’ thread you’ll see some pics.
Yeah I can imagine my car being similar, although to be fair mine feels like it pulls from about 4k-7.5k rpm - like yours though it's not happy at much below 3,000 revs so traffic or urban driving would be a right pain in the arse! Ok great thanks for confirming, i'll err on the side of caution and wait until i've got some different tyres sorted for the 'spare' wheels. Yeah I must admit I have done a few runs up Shelsley Walsh as it was local to where I grew up, but in terms of preparing a car, transporting it to the event, and doing everything in the name of 10/12 runs of less than 60 seconds each, it doesn't float my boat as much as circuit racing. Single seaters are as you say ‘versatile’, and as FF1800 (which is wot mine is) they have what in essence aren’t highly stressed engines, but they don’t sound as good as a ‘proper’ race engine.but that’s what makes it ‘cheap’. I will race it in Monoposto. I like watching hillclimbs, but it’s a very different skill set to what I have.
If you look at the ‘options after first race car’ thread you’ll see some pics.
Ahh thanks, yeah it's interesting - looking at your car i'd have presumed it was an F3 car, shows how much I know! I recall speaking to someone running an FF2000 car with the HSCC, they mentioned the same thing as you with regard to the low-stress engine making the car less onerous and expensive to run.
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