Towing/recovery with a Defender...
Discussion
You'd think a Defender was equipped enough to recover a stuck vehicle as it is but the nerd brigade seem to think you need extra kit like JATE rings.
I dragged an Audi A3 out of a ditch up a 1 in 3 hill using a combination of the front "eyes" and the bits attached to the very heavy duty towbar. Apparently I was risking near death doing so.
So from the PHers - if doing a recovery op, what would you equip your LR with?
Mine is a 110XS TDCi Station Wagon and I have a 12.5 tonne tow rope.
Surely that's enough?!
I dragged an Audi A3 out of a ditch up a 1 in 3 hill using a combination of the front "eyes" and the bits attached to the very heavy duty towbar. Apparently I was risking near death doing so.
So from the PHers - if doing a recovery op, what would you equip your LR with?
Mine is a 110XS TDCi Station Wagon and I have a 12.5 tonne tow rope.
Surely that's enough?!
Vladimir, it all depends on the situation and no-one can really give cast iron advice here without being there. A Defender doesn't necessarily roll off the production line properly equipped for vehicle recovery. What does it say in your driver's handbook?
Suggest googling e.g.: Jate ring recovery
An interesting thread it returns is this:
http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php/11435...
I've done a fair bit of vehicle recovery over the years. Probably the most spectacular was recovering a jack-knifed petrol tanker on a snowy road with my Jeep Grand Cherokee. I always have a couple of HD tow straps and a selection of D-shackles with me in the G-wagon.
One needs to understand that there can be sometimes surprisingly huge forces involved and that if something breaks it can be very dangerous. The vast majority of recoveries are uneventful but people have been seriously hurt in a few.
Suggest googling e.g.: Jate ring recovery
An interesting thread it returns is this:
http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php/11435...
I've done a fair bit of vehicle recovery over the years. Probably the most spectacular was recovering a jack-knifed petrol tanker on a snowy road with my Jeep Grand Cherokee. I always have a couple of HD tow straps and a selection of D-shackles with me in the G-wagon.
One needs to understand that there can be sometimes surprisingly huge forces involved and that if something breaks it can be very dangerous. The vast majority of recoveries are uneventful but people have been seriously hurt in a few.
Cheers guys. More useful answers than on the LR forum I use!
I'm pretty sensible and equipped with an Engineering degree so hopefully have some degree of logic/physics knowledge. I have recovered vehicles before - used to be a Geotec Engineer and often had to haul out stricken vehicles with modded 110s. It's one if those things where a balance between knowledge and practical safety are needed.
If I need extra kit, I'll get it but don't want to be one of those urban warriors types (except I live in the sticks!) that drapes a Defender in half a tonne of kit that will never be used.
Oh and recovering an artic lorry?! Holy sh*t!
I'm pretty sensible and equipped with an Engineering degree so hopefully have some degree of logic/physics knowledge. I have recovered vehicles before - used to be a Geotec Engineer and often had to haul out stricken vehicles with modded 110s. It's one if those things where a balance between knowledge and practical safety are needed.
If I need extra kit, I'll get it but don't want to be one of those urban warriors types (except I live in the sticks!) that drapes a Defender in half a tonne of kit that will never be used.
Oh and recovering an artic lorry?! Holy sh*t!
Vladimir said:
...Oh and recovering an artic lorry?! Holy sh*t!
I had a thread going not long ago entitled 'Towing an Artic'. Ironically, it was me checking what the Collective thought about the capabilities of a Toyota Landcruiser 120-Series, given that I'd just given up ownership of a 110 (even if one of the last with Salisbury axles, MY2002). The net result of that thread was my relative confidence to tow an artic slowly, if ever I found one causing a major blockage, and then likely saving stress for the driver.The net result of that was my actually now having towed lorries and one full artic several times now. I'd personally never try that with anything that doesn't have a Low Range gearbox, but I gather Autos are fine with the task.
What occurred to me once while towing something really quite heavy, was the ultimate fact that this thing being towed is rolling on flat tarmac on greased wheel bearings - heck, a man could pull an artic, if he was Geoff Capes, or the like. It's not like you're trying to pull a tree out!
What was also very telling once, and definitive proof of how little torque must be adequate - was once when I was towing a lorry, I had to drive on to slightly muddy, damp grass - and continued moving/pulling! So the resistance of the vehicle behind couldn't have been too massive. My main concern is over damaging my vehicle - but I really think now that slow towing in Low Range (first or second) is totally fine, and probably not even approaching the vehicle's damage limits, unlike say pulling tree stumps might, or out-&-out vehicle recovery where the stuck vehicle is actually stuck in deep mud, or an incline/ditch.
For the lorries - after the initial disbelief of an offer of help, the drivers have only ever been really grateful.
Vladimir said:
Oh and recovering an artic lorry?! Holy sh*t!
As Arif110 says, it is quite straightforward but spectacular nonetheless. And I wasn't pulling it out of a ditch and up a 1-in-3 hill. The lorry was turning left uphill at a wide T-junction and both the tractor and trailer had slid slowly down the steep icy cambers mid-turn causing it to jack-knife. I pulled the front wheels back up the icy slope to straighten the tractor out then a straight pull to help the lorry complete the turn. Had quite an audience by the time we'd finished.
The Jeep had a 4-litre petrol engine, autobox, low range, viscous centre diff, rear lsd, and good Pirelli tyres. Great for towing and better than a Discovery on- and off-road, IMO.
I often prefer to tow in reverse so I can easily see exactly what is happening. Perfect in the G-wagon as it has a massive centre pintle under the hinged number plate.
Hi,
I too am sceptical of a lot of the supposed "recovery" points available for Land Rovers etc. JATE is an anconym for "Joint Airborne Trials Executive" IIRC - nothing about recovery in that name is there? JATE rings are basically steel U shaped loops anchored to the chassis via a bolt which is in shear. Compare that with a tow ball which has much larger bolts in tension and are intended for "towing" things...notwithstanding that the JATE rings put the stress directly into the chassis rails I bet that the JATE rings would fail catastrophically long before a NATO hitch or similar tow hitch failed. Snatch recovery is a different matter.
NOTE - having just searched t'web and found this:
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/land-rover/275... which alleges that recovery is part of the JATE specification
I remain sceptical.
I too am sceptical of a lot of the supposed "recovery" points available for Land Rovers etc. JATE is an anconym for "Joint Airborne Trials Executive" IIRC - nothing about recovery in that name is there? JATE rings are basically steel U shaped loops anchored to the chassis via a bolt which is in shear. Compare that with a tow ball which has much larger bolts in tension and are intended for "towing" things...notwithstanding that the JATE rings put the stress directly into the chassis rails I bet that the JATE rings would fail catastrophically long before a NATO hitch or similar tow hitch failed. Snatch recovery is a different matter.
NOTE - having just searched t'web and found this:
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/land-rover/275... which alleges that recovery is part of the JATE specification
I remain sceptical.
JATE rings are the only legal attachment point by which to airlift a Defender-based vehicle by helicopter.
For that purpose, they have to be rated to 4g, so for a 2-tonne WMIK that amounts to 8000kgs. Towing balls are rated at 3500kgs. On a personal note I've seen WMIKs and the like often hanging from just one ring during recovery ops.
JATE rings are good for relatively straight pulls, but anything beyond that is gonna be beyond the remit of both the car and the driver.
It's another case of LR geeks massively over-speccing the stuff they bolt on their trucks.
To get back to the original post, a Defender will act as a rescuing vehicle quite happily as is, and drag most other stuff out of the dwang via the tow bar.
For that purpose, they have to be rated to 4g, so for a 2-tonne WMIK that amounts to 8000kgs. Towing balls are rated at 3500kgs. On a personal note I've seen WMIKs and the like often hanging from just one ring during recovery ops.
JATE rings are good for relatively straight pulls, but anything beyond that is gonna be beyond the remit of both the car and the driver.
It's another case of LR geeks massively over-speccing the stuff they bolt on their trucks.
To get back to the original post, a Defender will act as a rescuing vehicle quite happily as is, and drag most other stuff out of the dwang via the tow bar.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 7th May 20:05
Vladimir said:
So do I need to get anything more than my 12 tonne tow rope (and shackles)?
Nope, but bear in mind a 12 tonne rope is rated a fair bit above the tow bar attachment points for a Defender, so under failure, the car may break before the rope does.As a general rule, ratings should decrease as you work away from the vehicle.
Vladimir said:
So do I need to get anything more than my 12 tonne tow rope (and shackles)?
The Audi A3 tow was very unusual and although we do off road the Defender (I'd need shooting if not) we don't have plans to trial it!
Anyway this is the vehicle and we love it!
JATE rings are fine, it's not about what works, its what happens when something fails.The Audi A3 tow was very unusual and although we do off road the Defender (I'd need shooting if not) we don't have plans to trial it!
Anyway this is the vehicle and we love it!
Wraping a rope around the bumper for instance. Firstly the bumper has sharp leading edges, so even if it doesn't cause a direct issue, it will damage a rope.
Factory bumpers aren't very strong either and can bend easily, even in the middle. And lastly they are not normally attached with high strength tensile bolts. So add a bit of time and rust they can fail when under duress.
Similar applies to the lashing (not towing) eyes. They can and have failed.
If attaching a rope to a vehicle, always make sure it is safely attached, slopes can make it possible for them to come off. Or if using D shackles, make sure they are of the correct rating.
Never use metal shackles to join ropes together either, always loop the ropes together. If a rope fails during recovery you'd have a high speed metal projectile heading towards someone if not.
I was out messing arounf in a quarry in the States, and a chap with a big b
d pickup got stuck. I had 10 meters of Spectra rope in the Isuzu, so offered him, and his friend, the rope to pull it out. I warned him about the bumper, but did he listen? Nooo.
Him - "Hey man, it's welded on there solid!"
Idiot.
d pickup got stuck. I had 10 meters of Spectra rope in the Isuzu, so offered him, and his friend, the rope to pull it out. I warned him about the bumper, but did he listen? Nooo. Him - "Hey man, it's welded on there solid!"
Idiot.
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