Advice needed!

[Beats7]

Morning guys,

Just wanted to pick your brains on something. i'm looking to buy a cheap 4x4 just to muck around in really, nothing too serious in terms of what it would be required for or long mileage etc.

Looking to spend around £1,500 so not expecting much! However would like to have something that i can work on myself, but i am a relevant novice with a spanner!

Been looking at Cherokee Jeeps which seem to offer a lot of car for the money, but was wondering about maintenace, they seem to be quite complex and not something that a novice would be able to maintain???

i'm not sure whether i should be turning my attention to maybe a trooper/shogun/Fourtrak or a very cheap landy, although having been down the cheap landy route before i'm not sure i want to do it again!

Any advice would be much appreciated, many thanks.

[durbster]

I was looking for the same earlier in the year and picked up a Fourtrak off eBay a few months ago. It's very agricultural and has plenty of rust patches, but I wasn't looking for a fashion statement

It's great fun to bounce around in and seems pretty solid. It's got well over 170k on the clock but the engine and gearbox seem absolutely happy with that. I'm hoping it continues to start every time through the winter...

The only problem really is finding one. Decent ones are quite tricky to track down (took me several months of looking) and a lot are MOT failures due to rust.

Oh, the thing that swung me towards the Fourtrak rather than a Disco was simply that it's a bit smaller which is handy for my driveway

Edited by durbster on Wednesday 20th October 13:47

[cpas]

Disco 200 or 300 TDi.

[Dudd]

cpas said:

Disco 300 TDi.

This

[Beats7]

Thanks guys, hadnt even thought of a disco at that price range, will investigate further!

[jenkotvr]

I picked up this for £1500 '2000' L200....bit of clean and she looks the part

[Sixpackpert]

jenkotvr said:

I picked up this for £1500 '2000' L200....bit of clean and she looks the part

[cpas]

Beats7 said:

Thanks guys, hadnt even thought of a disco at that price range, will investigate further!

There are plenty of 'what to look for' threads in the Land Rover forum on here.

[300bhp/ton]

Beats7 said:

Morning guys,

Just wanted to pick your brains on something. i'm looking to buy a cheap 4x4 just to muck around in really, nothing too serious in terms of what it would be required for or long mileage etc.

Looking to spend around £1,500 so not expecting much! However would like to have something that i can work on myself, but i am a relevant novice with a spanner!

Been looking at Cherokee Jeeps which seem to offer a lot of car for the money, but was wondering about maintenace, they seem to be quite complex and not something that a novice would be able to maintain???

i'm not sure whether i should be turning my attention to maybe a trooper/shogun/Fourtrak or a very cheap landy, although having been down the cheap landy route before i'm not sure i want to do it again!

Any advice would be much appreciated, many thanks.

If I’m honest I’d have said a Cherokee is quite a simple 4x4 to work on. Personally I’d rather work on one over a Trooper or Shogun.
 
The Cherokee is still very much a nuts and bolts type of vehicle. The only downers are Jeep UK are rubbish and insurance can be silly high for them.
 
However, if you want a cheap 4x4 it really does depend what you want to do with it. There really is a vast choice out there, even at £1500.
 
Some things you might want to consider:
 
-Are you going to tow anything with it?
-Do you need it to haul stuff?
-Do you need it to carry people?
-Is MPG an issue?
-Is it going to be used off road? If so, how and where? RTV trials, Pay & Play, Challenge Events, Green Laning or simple farm access are all rather different and different vehicles will be better suited.
 
 
e.g.
 
If you want to complete in off road trials like RTV’s, then a Land Rover is quite a good bet. This is because the ALRC run lots and lots of these events across the country, but only Landy’s can enter.
 
The AWDC also run similar events open to all 4x4’s, but there are still classes for different vehicle types and sizes, so different vehicles offer more benefits than others.
 
 
In my opinion size does matter off road. And in the UK that usually means small. The smaller the vehicle the more nimble, the better the turning circle and less damage you are likely to suffer.
 
So short overhangs and a shortwheel base vehicle are the order of the day. Evidently the downsides are a small vehicle won’t be as good towing, hauling, carrying people or as refined on the road.
 
Larger vehicles evidently do these things better, but due to size will be more prone to damage from obstacles and often harder to navigate over the same terrain. They do have some advantages though, sometimes bigger can be good for certain off road challenges. But in the UK its less of a norm.
 
These are some vehicles I like that are available for £1500-2000:
 
 
Series Land Rover
 
This is still a good bet. And for several reasons.
-£1500 should get you a fairly ok one, if scruffy.
-Very capable in standard trim
-Small, but actually good at towing and hauling too
-Cheap plentiful parts
-HUGE owner’s community
-Very easy to work on
-EVERY single part can be replaced
 
It really doesn’t matter what is wrong with one. It is only a matter of some time and some spanners and a hammer and you can fix or replace it. Even down to the engine. They are old vehicles however, so like some TLC and while easy to work on are time consuming. Even simple jobs might require you to unbolt far more bits than you’d have liked too.
 
They are also very unrefined and noisy. Drink fuel like it’s going out of fashion and not very powerful or fast in return. On the flip side to this, there are lots of possible upgrades, such as even bolting in a V8 engine or a Tdi. So very easy to upgrade as time goes on.
 
In stock trim they’ll go most places, but in fairness the standard leaf suspension is not great. Limited travel and an arguable design flaw with the front shackle location. It also doesn’t have any locking axle diffs.
 
Lastly, Series axles, diffs and gearboxes are all rather weak compared to modern items. So can be prone to breaking, less of an issue stock. But if you serious about off roading and want to upgrade its worth knowing now.
 
 
Discovery/Classic RR
 
Essentially these are quite similar. But I’ll concentrate on the Disco.
 
In short a Disco is almost everything a Series Landy isn’t. It’s roomy, good at hauling people and towing in modern traffic. Fairly comfy, mod cons and a nice vehicle to use daily.
 
But it does have some tricks up its sleeve. And the biggest one is, a Disco is almost 100% the same as a Defender under the body. The only real different is a Defender 90 has a 92.9” wheelbase and short overhangs, whereas a Disco has a 100” wheelbase and longer overhangs.
 
The engine, gearbox, transferbox, suspension and axles are all identical.
 
This means a Disco is almost every bit as good off road. The limiting factors being its bulk. I know this as I have a Disco and it has a good number of battle scars
 
 
Cherokee
 
As you’ve already noted these are great value for money. They are smaller and more compact than a Disco, but are still a longwheel base vehicle. They run coils up front and a live axle at the rear. Not quite as good out of the box as a Disco, but not a bad alternative.
 
 
Jimny
 
I’m a huge fan of these, although you may struggle to fine one in budget. I like them because they are a proper off roader, they have a ladder chassis, live axles and coil suspension. But they are also very, very small. So this makes them very good on a lot of British terrain. I see them very much as being a modern Series 1 80” Land Rover, but with better suspension and no leaks.
 
 
Suzuki SJ
 
The predecessor to the Jimny. A good vehicle, but rust is a huge issue and they have leaf suspension. Not as good on or off road and not as comfy. But well worth considering for this money.
 
Vitara
I rather like the look of these, although I’d take a Jimny every time over one. Not quite as good off road as they have independent front suspension. But a capable off roader none the less.
 
 
Freelander
A modern soft roader. Very good on the road and comfy. If you want to go off road though make sure it has HDC  (hill descent control) and TCS or else it will be rubbish. Not as DIY friendly but arguably newer and more car like. No low range means some won’t see it as a proper off roader and in fairness, while you can get them to some extreme places, it’s a lot harder and far more prone to damage.
 
 
Honda CR-V/HR-V
Even more road biased than the Freelander. But arguably better on the road and even more car like. A good option if it’s only farm access. They should also be reliable but will be as DIT friendly as most modern mainstream cars.
 
 
 
 
I also like things such as a Toyota Hilux (Surf), 70 Series and a few others but I’m honest and don’t know so much about them.
 
But again it goes back to what you want it for. If it’s off roading then I’m a huge fan of live axles. Keeping the wheels on the ground is important. IRS/IFS is ok, but without either locking axle diffs or fancy TCS systems they simply won’t cut it the same. An example I use from time to time is a Frontera my Mum had. It looked great, as 3 door Sport on some nice alloys. But it was truly hopeless off road in comparison to a Land Rover (even compared to a Freelander!!!). And it wasn’t even any better on road either. With open diffs, lift a wheel off the ground and it’s all over and its amazing how easily a 4wd can get stuck.
 
Hope this helps

[cpas]

Excellent write up above.
May i just add on point. Early Series 3 and all earlier Series Landys wil be tax excempt and will be extremely cheap to insure (possibly as low as £80 if a second car) so are almost free to run. Therefore they are superb vehicles until you do over 1000 miles per year, when the fuel costs start to outweigh the road tax cost! However, Montego Diesel engines are apparently a pretty easy swap. Also, they are not brilliant for regular long journeys unless you are really brave

[300bhp/ton]

cpas said:

Excellent write up above.
May i just add on point. Early Series 3 and all earlier Series Landys wil be tax excempt and will be extremely cheap to insure (possibly as low as £80 if a second car) so are almost free to run. Therefore they are superb vehicles until you do over 1000 miles per year, when the fuel costs start to outweigh the road tax cost! However, Montego Diesel engines are apparently a pretty easy swap. Also, they are not brilliant for regular long journeys unless you are really brave

Good points.

Early S3's are indeed pre 73 and tax exempt.

It's also worth noting that a 200Tdi is an easy swap into a Series Landy and they are better on fuel and can run on veg oil. An addition of an OD on the gearbox makes it better on the road too. And some interior trim and comfy seats can make them far more pleasant and easy to live with.

[cpas]

If you are really lucky and brave you might get a usable early 90 (pre-runner to the Defender) for £1500 as well - or very possibly a 200TDi Defender.

[Beats7]

300bhp/ton thank you for your write up really interesting reading. I've had experience of a cheap defender before which turned into a disaster, but perhaps a series landy is the way to go.....i still like the look of the cherokee but hadnt thought about the insurance on them so will need to look further. In terms of what i want to do with it its pretty simple, no towing, mpg and people carrying no relevance, limited mileage, live out in the sticks and need a vehicle to transport dogs etc and general bashing around!

[cpas]

Consider a Disco but get an insurance quote first. Much better to drive round in than a S3, but the S3 is about the cheapest way to go.

[anonymous-user]

said:

a Disco is almost 100% the same as a Defender under the body. The only real different is a Defender 90 has a 92.9" wheelbase and short overhangs, whereas a Disco has a 100" wheelbase and longer overhangs.

Crikey! So a Disco is the same as a Defender apart from the wheelbase which is spookily identical to a RRC, along with the chassis, doors, large parts of the interior trim and most of the drive train and suspension?
Edited to add: And the windscreen. And pedal rubbers. And front inner wings.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 25th October 16:38

[cpas]

Crossflow Kid said:

said:

a Disco is almost 100% the same as a Defender under the body. The only real different is a Defender 90 has a 92.9" wheelbase and short overhangs, whereas a Disco has a 100" wheelbase and longer overhangs.

Crikey! So a Disco is the same as a Defender apart from the wheelbase which is spookily identical to a RRC, along with the chassis, doors, large parts of the interior trim and most of the drive train and suspension?
Edited to add: And the windscreen. And pedal rubbers. And front inner wings.

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Monday 25th October 16:38

But engine, gearbox, transfer box, diffs, axles, wheels, tyres, brakes etc - in fact the bits that matter off road - are the same

[300bhp/ton]

cpas said:

Crossflow Kid said:

said:

a Disco is almost 100% the same as a Defender under the body. The only real different is a Defender 90 has a 92.9" wheelbase and short overhangs, whereas a Disco has a 100" wheelbase and longer overhangs.

Crikey! So a Disco is the same as a Defender apart from the wheelbase which is spookily identical to a RRC, along with the chassis, doors, large parts of the interior trim and most of the drive train and suspension?
Edited to add: And the windscreen. And pedal rubbers. And front inner wings.

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Monday 25th October 16:38

But engine, gearbox, transfer box, diffs, axles, wheels, tyres, brakes etc - in fact the bits that matter off road - are the same

Yep. I don't think it's any real surprise that the models share parts. Lets face it and Audi A3 has more in common with a Golf than is healthy

But the point is, the Disco will do pretty much everything a Defender will but in more comfort.

[anonymous-user]

cpas said:

Crossflow Kid said:

said:

a Disco is almost 100% the same as a Defender under the body. The only real different is a Defender 90 has a 92.9" wheelbase and short overhangs, whereas a Disco has a 100" wheelbase and longer overhangs.

Crikey! So a Disco is the same as a Defender apart from the wheelbase which is spookily identical to a RRC, along with the chassis, doors, large parts of the interior trim and most of the drive train and suspension?
Edited to add: And the windscreen. And pedal rubbers. And front inner wings.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 25th October 16:38

But engine, gearbox, transfer box, diffs, axles, wheels, tyres, brakes etc - in fact the bits that matter off road - are the same

Transfer box is the same casing but with higher ratios for motorway cruising, with compromised low end torque, Disco also uses significantly smaller wheels as standard and WILL struggle to climb obstacles that a Defender won't even notice, and the suspension is simply weedy by comparison.
Disco1 also has weaker Range Rover axles which are generally thought of as a bit weaker, proven by the fact that original Camel Trophy Discos had Defender axles retro-fitted.
Having owned a Disco and upgraded to a Defender 90, I can safely say a Disco will NOT go anywhere a Defender will. It came be made to, but by the time the cost of modification and upgrade has been factored in it's cheaper and easier to go for a Defender which will be far more capable as is.
Discoveries are very good at their intended purpose which was to bridge the gap between utility-biased Defender and the luxury spec Range Rover. For that, they're very good, but think about it, if they were as good as/better than a Defender, Land Rover would've phased out that particular model line ages ago. And they didn't. With the possible exception of those in Frankfurt, car manufacturers aren't in the game of producing two model lines for the same job.
A Disco and Defender share models parts in terms of engine ancilliaries and such, but peel off a Disco body and you'll find a Range Rover. Land Rover played a blinder in producing the Discovery, using production spec RRCs as the basis for the original Disco mules in the mid-80s.
They simply took the RRC, swapped a few body panels, re-designed the headlights and grill and ta-dah! New vehicle which just about saved Land Rover.
Interesting reverse-engineered project here:

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 26th October 10:19

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 26th October 10:21

[300bhp/ton]

Crossflow Kid said:

Transfer box is the same casing but with higher ratios for motorway cruising, with compromised low end torque,

That's not 100% accurate. The Disco uses the same LT230 transfer box. It does use a different gear set for HIGH range only. Although this in truth gives the same mpg/1000rpm as a Defender when a Defender has the optional large diameter tyres fitted.

The LOW range is identical.

The gears also don't affect engine torque at all.

Crossflow Kid said:

Disco also uses significantly smaller wheels as standard and WILL struggle to climb obstacles that a Defender won't even notice

This again depends. A base model Defender is (and might still be) sold on 205's, which are the same size as a stock Disco 1 steel rim tyre. Larger tyres for both are available factory and optional fit and then there's the after market.

I do agree that you can fit bigger tyres to a Defender without a lift or trimming. But in reality tyres only improve ground clearance and a stock Disco still has more than most 4x4's. I do think your comparison is bordering on the lunacy. A stock Range Rover won this years ALRC National RTV event. This is a competition of around 120 competitors using various Land Rovers. If it was as bad as you claim, then it wouldn't have been in the running let alone beating Defenders and Ninety's.

Crossflow Kid said:

and the suspension is simply weedy by comparison.

How and why?

Crossflow Kid said:

Disco1 also has weaker Range Rover axles which are generally thought of as a bit weaker, proven by the fact that original Camel Trophy Discos had Defender axles retro-fitted.

Sorry but that is total rubbish. The axles are the same. The difference is in the number of splines, either 10 spline or 24 spline. However BOTH have been fitted to Disco and Defender alike.

In fact a common swap is to take a disc rear Disco axle and fit it to an earlier drum equipped Ninety or One Ten.

The only drivetrain difference of note, is that factory V8 Ninety's and One Ten's used the LT-85 5 speed gearbox (diesels including the Tdi's used the LT-77 and R380). While V8 Range Rover's and Disco where equipped with a manual used either an LT-77, LT-77s or R380.

Crossflow Kid said:

Having owned a Disco and upgraded to a Defender 90, I can safely say a Disco will NOT go anywhere a Defender will.

Bigger overhangs and longer wheelbase mean a Disco doesn't have the same approach, departure and breakover angles as a 90. Although better than a 110 in terms of break over.

Also being slightly wider, (actually not wider, but the body on the Disco is the same width as the flares on the Defender, but it makes it more bulky) combined with taller and more body work do make it less nimble in tight confines.

And if you leave the factory fit spoiler on (for V8's the manual tells you to remove for off road use). Then yes it won't be quite as capable at a trial or pay and play site.

But in terms of suspension and AWD ability it is pretty much 100% as capable. So terrain type, location and driving style will have far more dictation on how it performs off road IMO.

Crossflow Kid said:

It came be made to, but by the time the cost of modification and upgrade has been factored in it's cheaper and easier to go for a Defender which will be far more capable as is.

Again it depends.

If you don't care about keeping the Disco tidy, then you can fit 33.11.50R15 (290/90R15) tyres on with just arch trimming. Tyres this size will rub the fender flares on a Defender, even one with a 1" lift.

Removing the spoiler and bumper end caps is free.

So the only cost is tyres, but you'd buy them for a Defender. Apart from that they will be pretty even.

Size is then the only factor, but this depends what you want to do with it. For RTV or CCVT trials then it won't be as nimble, but you should be in a different competition class so it doesn't too much.

For challenge events in forests or woods, then yes I agree a Disco is a bit too big, but arguably so is a 90. An 80" coiler special will be a much better tool.

But for green laning, overland trips and pay and play sites it will be just fine. All IMO

Crossflow Kid said:

Discoveries are very good at their intended purpose which was to bridge the gap between utility-biased Defender and the luxury spec Range Rover. For that, they're very good, but think about it, if they were as good as/better than a Defender, Land Rover would've phased out that particular model line ages ago. And they didn't.

Actually Land Rover like the 100" layout, hence why the Range Rover and Disco use it and the 101 was only 1" more.

And remember is was the Range Rover that originally had full time AWD and coil suspension. These systems were then transferred and fitted to the Series III which produced the original Ninety and One Ten range.

In fact Land Rover even built 100" prototypes:




Although from a marketing position it made more sense to sell a smaller SWB and bigger LWB variant.

Crossflow Kid said:

With the possible exception of those in Frankfurt, car manufacturers aren't in the game of producing two model lines for the same job.

I guess that's arguable, Disco 4, RRS and RR are all pretty similar. Not too mention things like Golf, A3 and Sirocco types of setups.

Crossflow Kid said:

A Disco and Defender share models parts in terms of engine ancilliaries and such, but peel off a Disco body and you'll find a Range Rover.

Yes, but a Range Rover and Defender are pretty identical under the skin too. The chassis rails are the same. In fact it's full possible to take a Range Rover or Defender and chop the chassis down and put a Defender or Series body on it.

This is or was a V8 Range Rover...


As was this one:

Crossflow Kid said:

Land Rover played a blinder in producing the Discovery, using production spec RRCs as the basis for the original Disco mules in the mid-80s.
They simply took the RRC, swapped a few body panels, re-designed the headlights and grill and ta-dah! New vehicle which just about saved Land Rover.

I think it was slightly more than that.

A big difference is the RR at the time used a viscous transfer box, the Disco used the LT230 as per the Defender.

I admit running gear is the same, but it is for all 3 pretty much and the chassis for a Disco and RR are very similar. And it used some parts like doors, windscreen and door mirrors.

But it was a completely different shell.

Roof - Disco steel
Roof - Rangie aluminium
Bonnet - Disco aluminium
Bonnet - Rangei steel

Different floor, roof, tailgate and a completely different interior.

[cmackay81]

Beats7 said:

Morning guys,

Just wanted to pick your brains on something. i'm looking to buy a cheap 4x4 just to muck around in really, nothing too serious in terms of what it would be required for or long mileage etc.

Looking to spend around £1,500 so not expecting much! However would like to have something that i can work on myself, but i am a relevant novice with a spanner!

Been looking at Cherokee Jeeps which seem to offer a lot of car for the money, but was wondering about maintenace, they seem to be quite complex and not something that a novice would be able to maintain???

i'm not sure whether i should be turning my attention to maybe a trooper/shogun/Fourtrak or a very cheap landy, although having been down the cheap landy route before i'm not sure i want to do it again!

Any advice would be much appreciated, many thanks.

Cherokees are usually so cheap because they are the Diesel version. Avoid these at all costs.

Only get a 4.0 and they are pretty bulletproof.

Great capability offroad, will match anything else unmodded,

Just make sure you have some rope to tow other people out with. Happened quite a lot to me. People in landys and shoguns etc trying to follow me up the steep stuff :P