Has / Does anybody Trial a Landrover RR3 or D3/4
Discussion
I suspect you'll find very few in the UK being used seriously off road. Not until they are older and cheaper at least. In the US they tend to use them pretty hard but they don't really have a concept of trialling like
we do in the UK with clubs like the ALRC or AWDC.
In terms of ability the traction control system is really the key. Plus the simulated live
axle system and the optional rear locker will all make a difference. Downsides are bulk, standards bumpers and overhangs and weight. I'm sure in an rtv trial a stock Series 1 would do better than a D3 most of the time.
we do in the UK with clubs like the ALRC or AWDC.
In terms of ability the traction control system is really the key. Plus the simulated live
axle system and the optional rear locker will all make a difference. Downsides are bulk, standards bumpers and overhangs and weight. I'm sure in an rtv trial a stock Series 1 would do better than a D3 most of the time.
SystemParanoia said:
So is it the dimentions and overall size that puts the modern crop of 4x4's at a disadvantage?
Or is it the weight, or both?
That depnds on several things such as what county you are in and what type of offOr is it the weight, or both?
roading you do.
In the UK we tend to be a bit precious about our vehicles and most just don't have the funds to potentially wreck or beat up a £50k 4x4. There is also a lack of space and areas to use such vehcles.
So most off roading in the UK falls into Green Laning and trials. Pay and play sites are getting ever more popular though.
Green lanes are usually not too extreme. Often muddy and rough and may have trees and bushes which can scratch the paint work. But in terms of 4x4 ability almost anything can conquor most green lanes. So it comes
down to whether you want to scratch up you D3 on one.
Trialling such as RTV or the mre extreme Challenge events are a different kettle of fish. There's a high chance of damage and in the case of trials you have to drive through narrow cane gates to avoid penalty points. This is much easier in a smaller vehicle. So whlile much new stuff is highly capable it really is too bulky to be successful at it unless competing against like sized vehicles. And it's also worth remember a coil sprung V8 powered Series 1 despite not having any fancy electronic traction systems is still immensly capable off road.
In the USA it's slightly different. For the most part they don't use their every day off roadrs for competitions like we do. They have purpose built buggys and trucks that they trailor to events. They also don't have gren lanes the same either, they have trails whch they call "wheeling". This can go from the mild to the extreme and often require a
specially prepared vehicle to drive down. In this arena the new vehicles like the D3 can be affective. Even more so as there is so much open space in the US they don't just go out for an hour or two but maybe gone a couple of days. So ned a vehicle with space for stuff.
However wheeling is very different in different partsof the US. West cost is dry and mountainous so rock crawling is very common. Where as Atlanta way and East coast it's much more about mudding.
Americans also like to modify their trucks, so jacked up suspension and huge tyres are the norm. On something like the D3 the fancy suspension prevents the truck being easily lifted or big tyres being fitted. This can hinder ability in some
situations a d evidently then misses out on the people wanting the monster truck look.
I think we will see more being used as time goes on. Partly because they are getting more affordable and partly because there is a distinct lack of smaller 4x4's available. Even the youngest Series III Land Rover is nearly 30 years old now.
thank you for your points.
whilst i would love to spend a year doing as many trails across the states as i could, i feels its best to just referr to the UK offroading scene.
If the trialing is easier in a smaller vehicle, then just slapping a series body on a D3 chassis isnt going to make the wheelbase any narrower, so the car will be just as wide... wouldn't it ?
or would that combo improve visibility as you will be able to see exactly where the wheels are.
finally, i read that the modern LR range have both a ladder AND monocoqe ( sp? ) chassis.
would this not make it extraordinarily difficult to make any kind of extreme mods to ? never mind try to make it road legal afterwards.
reading up and finding what images i can, im finding it harder to ever imagine a current RR or even the upcoming defender if its based on the same construction methods ever seriously running 37" + tyres
whilst i would love to spend a year doing as many trails across the states as i could, i feels its best to just referr to the UK offroading scene.
If the trialing is easier in a smaller vehicle, then just slapping a series body on a D3 chassis isnt going to make the wheelbase any narrower, so the car will be just as wide... wouldn't it ?
or would that combo improve visibility as you will be able to see exactly where the wheels are.
finally, i read that the modern LR range have both a ladder AND monocoqe ( sp? ) chassis.
would this not make it extraordinarily difficult to make any kind of extreme mods to ? never mind try to make it road legal afterwards.
reading up and finding what images i can, im finding it harder to ever imagine a current RR or even the upcoming defender if its based on the same construction methods ever seriously running 37" + tyres
Here are some pics to illustrate what I was meaning.
Mudding in the USA means HUGE tyres and lift. Tyre size we are talking 36-42 inch being fairly common on the bigger trucks. A regular Land Rover Defender with some work will run 33-35 inch at most but will often break the diff and axles regularly. A new D3/4 will struggle to fit 32 inch tyres on.
Some of the mud holes are huge and deep that they play in. Of course not all of these trucks are daily drivers, but most are probably fully road legal over there and many will be used every day. Here in the UK you can’t even run such trucks on the road legally, so it’s a different ballgame entirely.
Big trucks like Ford Bronco’s, Chevy Blazers and pickups like a Ford F150, Chevy Silvarado and Dodge Ram are popular for this. Partly because of price and ease to modify, but also availability of tuning parts and engine selection and the fact many of these trucks are generally strong and capable of this sort of thing. Defenders are rare State side, although Discovery’s are fairly popular (D1 & 2) but neither are really big enough for this sort of play.
We really have nothing comparable in the UK to this. Closest would be some of the pay and play sites and a few of the challenge truck rigs.
When they want something more extreme and purpose built for competition use instead of playing you get vehicles which look more like this:
Rock crawling requires very good suspension articulation and flex. Large tyres are also favoured for traction and under axle ground clearance. Lifts are not usually as big as mudding trucks as a tall truck is less stable on a side slope. So the trucks used often tend to be smaller. Jeep Wranglers and XJ Cherokee’s are certainly popular and you’ll find a fair few Discovery 1’s and 2’s being used for this too.
The biggest limiting factor for something like a D3 in this situation is the size of it and the amount of bodywork and bumpers. And while the Land Rover independent suspension is quite superb, it simply can’t be modified to offer the same levels of flex and articulation as straight forward live axle setups. Or at least not within an even remotely sensible budget.
Again in the UK we don’t really have this sort of terrain or activity. There are some manmade area’s I believe, but it’s not really the same thing.
What we do have is trialling. Clubs such as the ALRC (Association of Land Rover Clubs) or AWDC (All Wheel Drive Club). Run RTV and CCV vehicle trials (Road Taxed Vehicle and Cross Country Vehicle).
RTV’s are the most popular and generally involve a course of 10 – 12 gates (pair of canes). The idea is to drive the course without stopping or hitting the canes and attain the lowest score possible.
ALL RTV vehicles must be road legal and there is usually fairly strict control on modifications. CCV vehicles are more hard core and allow more extreme modifications and don’t have to be road legal, although many are. CCV trials are usually more difficult with greater chance of damage or roll over.
From what I can tell the American’s have no concept of this over there. They either play or go much more extreme.
In the UK the terrain does vary from region to region, but trees and mud are common. And as trialling is about navigating a tight course over rough terrain manoeuvrability is often far more important than suspension travel. To this end, even a stock leaf sprung 80” Series 1 can be a very effective tool for this, due to its short length, narrow width and short overhangs with good ground clearance. So while a new Discovery ¾ may well make an easy job of the terrain chances are it will be difficult to avoid penalty points and often trees!
Some pics of RTV trials (as you can see fairly tight and twisty and limited space):
CCV vehicles are usually created from existing vehicles. In the Land Rover world it is common place to take an old Range Rover (or even Discovery these days) and chop it down to an 80” wheelbase and plob a somewhat Series/Defender looking body on top, these are often referred to as specials. This is easy because the chassis on a Discovery 1 is basically the same design as the original 1948 Land Rover.
Some specials from the ALRC:
This one is actually a chopped down P38a Range Rover, but again these still used the same basic components as all other Land Rovers.
I’m sure in time someone will take a D3 and chop it down to make a special. But it certainly isn’t a cheap option and depending on what club they compete with would be borderline on being within the regulations.
I personally compete in RTV events with my local ALRC club and also at the annual National event. Predominately the vehicles used are Series and Defenders. There are more Discovery’s and Range Rovers being used now, and I think this is because they are now cheap to buy. £1000-1500 will get you a descent Tdi Disco.
I’ve even seen a few DII’s and Freelander’s competing, but they are rare, however as they get cheaper to buy and the Series motors get older I am convinced more will be seen in this type of use. And at some point D3’s will be seen too.
I actually trial a 1991 Discovery myself. And while its capable it is BIG for such tasks and I often can’t get round parts of a section that a 90 will breeze through. This is down to size and nothing more. I’ve also suffered several incidents with trees, where a smaller vehicle would have been unscathed. But as my Disco didn’t cost much to buy it’s not such a worry as it would be with a couple of year old D3.
So in answer to your question. Yes we will see some, but they will be far and few between and you probably won’t see many for the next 10-15 years.
Hope this helps
Sorry typed this all out before I saw your reply.
I'm sure you could modify a D3 in a similar manner to how curret specials are created. But it'll be far more difficult and expensive.
That said the D3 is immensely capable off road. But trialling won't be it's forte due to it's size and bulk.
Mudding in the USA means HUGE tyres and lift. Tyre size we are talking 36-42 inch being fairly common on the bigger trucks. A regular Land Rover Defender with some work will run 33-35 inch at most but will often break the diff and axles regularly. A new D3/4 will struggle to fit 32 inch tyres on.
Some of the mud holes are huge and deep that they play in. Of course not all of these trucks are daily drivers, but most are probably fully road legal over there and many will be used every day. Here in the UK you can’t even run such trucks on the road legally, so it’s a different ballgame entirely.
Big trucks like Ford Bronco’s, Chevy Blazers and pickups like a Ford F150, Chevy Silvarado and Dodge Ram are popular for this. Partly because of price and ease to modify, but also availability of tuning parts and engine selection and the fact many of these trucks are generally strong and capable of this sort of thing. Defenders are rare State side, although Discovery’s are fairly popular (D1 & 2) but neither are really big enough for this sort of play.
We really have nothing comparable in the UK to this. Closest would be some of the pay and play sites and a few of the challenge truck rigs.
When they want something more extreme and purpose built for competition use instead of playing you get vehicles which look more like this:
Rock crawling requires very good suspension articulation and flex. Large tyres are also favoured for traction and under axle ground clearance. Lifts are not usually as big as mudding trucks as a tall truck is less stable on a side slope. So the trucks used often tend to be smaller. Jeep Wranglers and XJ Cherokee’s are certainly popular and you’ll find a fair few Discovery 1’s and 2’s being used for this too.
The biggest limiting factor for something like a D3 in this situation is the size of it and the amount of bodywork and bumpers. And while the Land Rover independent suspension is quite superb, it simply can’t be modified to offer the same levels of flex and articulation as straight forward live axle setups. Or at least not within an even remotely sensible budget.
Again in the UK we don’t really have this sort of terrain or activity. There are some manmade area’s I believe, but it’s not really the same thing.
What we do have is trialling. Clubs such as the ALRC (Association of Land Rover Clubs) or AWDC (All Wheel Drive Club). Run RTV and CCV vehicle trials (Road Taxed Vehicle and Cross Country Vehicle).
RTV’s are the most popular and generally involve a course of 10 – 12 gates (pair of canes). The idea is to drive the course without stopping or hitting the canes and attain the lowest score possible.
ALL RTV vehicles must be road legal and there is usually fairly strict control on modifications. CCV vehicles are more hard core and allow more extreme modifications and don’t have to be road legal, although many are. CCV trials are usually more difficult with greater chance of damage or roll over.
From what I can tell the American’s have no concept of this over there. They either play or go much more extreme.
In the UK the terrain does vary from region to region, but trees and mud are common. And as trialling is about navigating a tight course over rough terrain manoeuvrability is often far more important than suspension travel. To this end, even a stock leaf sprung 80” Series 1 can be a very effective tool for this, due to its short length, narrow width and short overhangs with good ground clearance. So while a new Discovery ¾ may well make an easy job of the terrain chances are it will be difficult to avoid penalty points and often trees!
Some pics of RTV trials (as you can see fairly tight and twisty and limited space):
CCV vehicles are usually created from existing vehicles. In the Land Rover world it is common place to take an old Range Rover (or even Discovery these days) and chop it down to an 80” wheelbase and plob a somewhat Series/Defender looking body on top, these are often referred to as specials. This is easy because the chassis on a Discovery 1 is basically the same design as the original 1948 Land Rover.
Some specials from the ALRC:
This one is actually a chopped down P38a Range Rover, but again these still used the same basic components as all other Land Rovers.
I’m sure in time someone will take a D3 and chop it down to make a special. But it certainly isn’t a cheap option and depending on what club they compete with would be borderline on being within the regulations.
I personally compete in RTV events with my local ALRC club and also at the annual National event. Predominately the vehicles used are Series and Defenders. There are more Discovery’s and Range Rovers being used now, and I think this is because they are now cheap to buy. £1000-1500 will get you a descent Tdi Disco.
I’ve even seen a few DII’s and Freelander’s competing, but they are rare, however as they get cheaper to buy and the Series motors get older I am convinced more will be seen in this type of use. And at some point D3’s will be seen too.
I actually trial a 1991 Discovery myself. And while its capable it is BIG for such tasks and I often can’t get round parts of a section that a 90 will breeze through. This is down to size and nothing more. I’ve also suffered several incidents with trees, where a smaller vehicle would have been unscathed. But as my Disco didn’t cost much to buy it’s not such a worry as it would be with a couple of year old D3.
So in answer to your question. Yes we will see some, but they will be far and few between and you probably won’t see many for the next 10-15 years.
Hope this helps
Sorry typed this all out before I saw your reply.
I'm sure you could modify a D3 in a similar manner to how curret specials are created. But it'll be far more difficult and expensive.
That said the D3 is immensely capable off road. But trialling won't be it's forte due to it's size and bulk.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Tuesday 12th January 12:25
completely awesome responses.
been youtubing some RTV trial footage... looks fun
in the comments i read that only the center diff is allowed to be locked.
problem is in this very forum i read that if your RR3 D3/4 is fitted with a rear locker, the computer gives you no control over its operation. would that get you disqualified ?
been youtubing some RTV trial footage... looks fun
in the comments i read that only the center diff is allowed to be locked.
problem is in this very forum i read that if your RR3 D3/4 is fitted with a rear locker, the computer gives you no control over its operation. would that get you disqualified ?
SystemParanoia said:
completely awesome responses.
been youtubing some RTV trial footage... looks fun
It is fun and probably ranks as one of the cheapest forms of motorsport!!been youtubing some RTV trial footage... looks fun
SystemParanoia said:
in the comments i read that only the center diff is allowed to be locked.
problem is in this very forum i read that if your RR3 D3/4 is fitted with a rear locker, the computer gives you no control over its operation. would that get you disqualified ?
This really depends on which club and organisation you join and compete with.problem is in this very forum i read that if your RR3 D3/4 is fitted with a rear locker, the computer gives you no control over its operation. would that get you disqualified ?
The All Wheel Drive Club (AWDC) http://awdc.co.uk/ (you can down load the regs)
These guys basically cater for all makes and models. Vehicles are spit into "classes" for results purposes but everyone attempts the same sections under the same conditions. So a more suitable vehicle will still be better at trialling.
The AWDC is a good place if you want a non-Land Rover 4x4, although Landy's are still welcome. As a club they are also more lax on modifications and vehicle specifications. Most of the time vehicles are split into "standard" and "modified". Some standard vehicles like a new Jeep Rubicon that comes with front/rear diff lockers and traction control may be deemed to be a modified class vehicle to make it more fair for other competitors.
The Association of Land Rover Clubs (ALRC) http://www.alrc.co.uk/ (all regs available on website).
This is purely Land Rovers!
My local club who I trial with is an ALRC club: http://www.cvlrc.co.uk/
Again you have modified and standard vehicle classes. The vehicles are then also sub divided by suspension type and size. Small events normally have a leaf class and a coil sprung class, but some will split LWB vehicles from SWB for results gathering. Again the same sections are driven by all vehicles regardless.
The next biggest difference is, no matter if you are standard or modified class, it has to remain Land Rover. This is good and bad, it's good because it can keep costs down and make a more level playing field. Meaning the person with the biggest wallet can't buy themself to the top.
The downside is it makes sticking within the regulations often difficult and expensive, they are also petty about pointless things like bumpers, but will happily let you put a 225hp V8 into a vehicle that originally had 50hp with no other upgrades to things like suspension and brakes.
My advice would be, if you don't already have a vehicle then take a good look at what the different clubs offer.
Some Japanese and American 4x4's are very good, but only have a fairly small following in the UK, so dedicated meets and events for that make may be rare if at all.
Land Rover's certainly have the biggest following over here and the Land Rover only clubs are able to provide a wealth of activities from over seas tours, to trials, to green laning days, shows and social events.
The only thing I would say about the ALRC is they are rather stayed and stodgy. Too many old men who don't want to move on and accept new ideas. If you want to trial a Discovery (as I do) or Range Rover with them, you'll find the rules heavily biased in favour of the Defender and Series motors.
It's not all bad and I wouldn't like to say the AWDC and other off roading organsisaions don't suffer similar.
So to go back to your question about diff lockers. Under ALRC rules you can't fit an aftermarket diff locker to a more traditional Land Rover, as Land Rover never sold them that way or offered them as an option. However the rules also state ANY standard Land Rover can compete, so a D3/RRS with a locking rear diff should qualify. This is just one of the silly niggles with the ALRC.
You'll note if you read the AWDC regs that they are only a few pages long and very generic. The ALRC regs are pages and pages long and very picky. There is method in the madness to try and stop someone building a £50k and making everyone else redundant. But it is time for a refresh.
In terms of cost, RTV trials are very cheap. Each event usually costs £20-25 entry fee, you don't need a competition license. And annual membership which is also around £20-25.
Vehicle wise, all they need is to be road legal and taxed and have suitable recovery points front and rear (suitable tyres will help too
)And that's about it. So a £500 Series III would be more than ideal and if driven right still competitive.
CCV events aren't as common as RTV ones as less clubs run them. They are far more hardcore. You can use a stock vehicle and indeed there are some that use 90's and Series motors for this, but they have to have a certified rollcage and a competition logbook. Many use purpose built specials of some kind. As a rule you are better off starting with RTV's and see how you get on before doing CCV events.
Challenge events are getting ever more popular, these are a bit more extreme and a prepped dedicated vehicle is really needed. Very different discipline to regular trialing. These events often involve you having to reach 'x' point to stamp a punch card attached to your vehicle. Sometimes in teams. I've not done one of these, they sound like fun and road legal vehicles can be used, but there is a very high risk of damage and you'll need things like winches too.
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