£3K Defender or Disco?

[hopey84]

£3K Defender or Disco? Used as an off road toy/second car.

Defenders seem to be way more expensive than Disco's for a similar age, would love a 110 double cab pick up but cant seem to find one in my price range.

If anyone has any suggestions on alternatives im all ears! im new to off roading so need to tap in to the experiance on here.

Cheers
Richie

[joshc]

The Discovery is quieter and more comfortable than the Defender. The Discovery has comfort, refinement, but it's still extremely capable off road.

[G-P]

The Defender will hold it's money much better and is more fun off road.

[signia]

I had the same choice and budget three years ago. I really wanted a v8 110 csw. The only ones around that price were pretty tired and considerably older than the equivalently priced disco, plus there were a lot less to choose from.

Whatever you buy is likely to need a bit of work in the not too distant future. I went with the Disco with nicer spec and lower milage and was glad from a financial point of view that I did. It meant I had the money to then get a few bits fixed and then modify it for green laning / pay and play etc.

If I'd had a bit more I would have gone for the 110. Having said that, the v8 auto is unstoppable. Makes mincemeat of climbing over rocks etc.

Whatever you get, make sure it's solid but be prepared for some work sooner rather than later. Defenders rot from the inside out - check bulkheads, evidence of rot around door hinges and anywhere the aluminium meets the steel. Discos leak like a seive - check boot floor, footwells and where rear arches meet the c pillar. I've had a few minor welds done on my boot floor and rear arches but have spent a month of Sundays waxoyling the underside and chassis and hammertiing the inside floor too.

Both the defender of disco have decent engines. Try to get a 200tdi or 300tdi age defender. You won't get a td5 for that money. Avoid older diesel units without a turbo - a mate had one and it was painfully slow - he quickly threw a 200tdi in it. Same engines good in a Disco, 200tdi Discos are quite tired now, 300tdis are good value. You might find an early Disco 2 for that money if you're lucky - although if given the choice of a better condition / lower milage D1 - that'll do nicely. The 3.5i and 3.9i V8s are bomb proof if looked after properly (having said that the tappets on mine are getting done next week!). The 3.5 carb sounds nice, but doesn't like the water as much.

That's just my take on it and my thougfht process when deciding the same thing but whatever you get, you'll love it. Whack on some A/Ts and you'll be out playing in the snow getting some dirty looks from people walking in the road, but a few waves from the other drivers (who most likely will also be in a Land Rover).

[lotuscorsa]

I had a range rover 4.6 hse p38 which got me into 4x4s ,then bought a disco 300 TDI ,its a great car cant falt it in any way ,parts are cheep never got stuck ,just keep chugging along and is quick,the missus has bought a 2000 year td5 ES model and it very nice ,but i would have the 300 TDI all day long .In my opinion i would go for the 300 TDI manual basic model (no leaky sunroofs)it great on and off road the 200 a bit old in side and the defender is great off road but i dont like the way they drive on road and look very dated,But thats my opinion.

[Kermit power]

£3k? Excellent condition Shogun with plenty left over for mud tyres and the like!

[Rum Runner]

Buy a double cab pick up you get a much later lower mileage vehicle. Look at the price of a Ford ranger . At 3k for Landie you will mostly likely buy yourself a lot of work/cost.

[kmm]

hopey84 said:

£3K Defender or Disco? Used as an off road toy/second car.

Defenders seem to be way more expensive than Disco's for a similar age, would love a 110 double cab pick up but cant seem to find one in my price range.

If anyone has any suggestions on alternatives im all ears! im new to off roading so need to tap in to the experiance on here.

Cheers
Richie

If it's for off-road, then i would say the Defender. It has shorter approach angles and isn't as heavy as the Disco. Also less mods needed for taking it off-road. I have seen times when the extra wheel base gets the Disco through stuff that the Defender can't though. Both very capable with the correct tyres on. The Disco will be nicer to drive on road and seems a lot more modern. You will feel like you are getting more for your money with the Disco and plenty of them about.

Quite a few guys in the Scottish Mud club have Toyota Surfs and like them. If you buy a vehicle that has some of the mods already done then it can save you a few pounds. Talk to as many people as you can and go and look/drive some differnt 4x4 and see which one feels right for you. I've had a Disco 300tdi ES, a 200tdi 90 and a bobtail Rangerover (all at the same time!) Best on road and comfort Disco. Best off-road 90 or Rangie. Best all round 90. Just got the Rangie left, but only for off-road, although it is road legal. Rangie has been far the cheapest to maintain than the other two.

Hope this helps and good luck.

[300bhp/ton]

hopey84 said:

£3K Defender or Disco? Used as an off road toy/second car.

Defenders seem to be way more expensive than Disco's for a similar age, would love a 110 double cab pick up but cant seem to find one in my price range.

If anyone has any suggestions on alternatives im all ears! im new to off roading so need to tap in to the experiance on here.

Cheers
Richie

Hi. I think I can give you a fairly comprehensive answer, although I can't tell which to buy

I've personally owned a D90 and current have a Discovery. However I've been around Land Rovers all my life and have experience of nearly all the models at one point or another. As a family we've had between 15 and 20 LR products. Extend this to my close family and its probably somewhere between 40 and 50 different Land Rovers!



The main reason you can't find a double cab one ten in price range is these are a fairly recent addition to the Land Rover line up. iirc they were introduced sometime after the TD5 was launched, so that's around the 2000 model year.

Defenders are notorious for holding their money well so you won't see a factory double cab 110 in your price range.

However, one of thee beauties of Land Rovers and specifically the Defender is it is built like a mechano set. There's no reason why you couldn't take a regular pick-up or Station Wagon 110 and convert it to a double cab. All the bits simply bolt on.

But before we get carried away we need to look at some specifics.

£3000 is still the bottom end of the Defender range, actually at this age they are not Defenders but simply known as Ninety and One Ten's. Fear not as they are almost identical in design and parts. Very early examples have slide windows and the first year production ones used the last of the Series III gearboxes and engines.

Most in this price range will have the 2.5 Diesel Turbo engine. This engine is often mocked by some, but in it's day it's not too bad, and I know of 2 examples with over 200,000 miles on the clock. That said it only makes 80 something hp and will not be speedy. It really is an engine to trundle about in rather than tear up the roads. But it'll get you from A to B and be ok on fuel (mid 20's mpg).

The only other engine you are likely to find is the 3.5 litre Rover V8. In stock trim these run twin Stromberg carbs and make 137bhp. They do use a heavier duty slightly more clunky gearbox than the diesel ones and do out perform the diesel too. But expect nearer to 12-15mpg.


On the flip side £3000 will get you quite a lot of Discovery for your money. The Discovery was launched in 1989 and had a mild face lift in 1994.

The big thing to note is that underneath a Discovery is almost identical to a Defender!

These means that dynamically off road they are very very equal.

Engines for the Discovery are the 200Tdi and the fuel injected 3.5 V8. After 1994 there was the 300Tdi and 3.9 Rover V8.

The Tdi engines are almost identical in power with 111bhp and are very descent power plants. You can also tweak them to 150bhp very easily. The 3.5 had 165bhp and the 3.9 182bhp.

The V8's are quicker than the Tdi's, but a tweaked Tdi is actually a very good match up.

5 speed manual gearboxes are the norm for the diesels but there are a few auto's about. Where as the V8's are nearly all auto's with very few manuals being sold from the factory.

It's worth noting the Defender was never available in the UK with an automatic gearbox (bar one special edition). However they can be fairly easily converted.




This is a key point with Land Rovers though. They can be converted and modified. There is no reason why you can't take a 1988 110 and swap in a V8 or a Tdi engine. In most cases these modifications are fairly straight forward and cost affective.


Condition
In terms of condition and specification. As a 90/110 is older chances are it will be tattier than a newer Discovery. Rust is an issue with Land Rovers but not in the same way as it affects other vehicles.

On a 90/110 almost all of the body panels are an aluminium alloy. This means they generally survive quite well. In fact older ones used better grade metal than newer ones. The front bulk head is steel though and prone to rot. But repair panels are available. The doors also have steel frames, this often reacts with the aluminium skin and can cause a form of corrosion.

Chassis wise they are generally ok, but they can rust too. Again the big advantage is you can easily weld in replacement sections and make it like new again.

A Discovery has some aluminium body panels but the roof is steel as are the floors. Boot floors are known to rust, but again its a fairly easy and cost affective fix. It's also not a structural part of vehicle. The latter Series 1 (300Tdi ones) Discoverys do seem to be prone to more rust in the chassis than the earlier 200Tdi ones. So make sure you check it out. But again, repair sections are available for these as per the 90/110 chassis.

In fact apart from the body/bumper mounts the chassis of a Defender is almost identical to a Discovery. A Defender 90 has a 92.9" wheelbase, a Defender 110 has a 110" wheelbase and a Discovery has a 100" wheelbase. And that's pretty much the only difference.


Comfort

The Discovery is a much more civilised place to be. Moor roomy with bigger glass area's, quieter and more comfortable. Central locking and aircon are also likely to be found on a Discovery but not available on the age of 90/110 you are looking at (although aftermarket can fix this).

I've driven many many miles in a 90 and been perfectly happy. Although recently I did a fairly long drive in one, and while it was fine at the time, jumping back into the Discovery proved an eye opener on how different they are on the road.


Seating

A 90 can seat upto 7 legally, but is great for two and loads of luggage. The 110 offers an extra row, so can seat 10 or 12 (might need to check your licence if you want the latter as it counts as a bus). A Discovery will normally seat 5 with a good boot area, although small side facing boot seats are available making it a 7 seater.


Off Road

Now you really need to decide what type of off roading you are likely to do with the vehicle and why you want to do it.

As I said before, in terms of driveline all of these vehicles are identical in ability. But there are other important factors to consider that vary how good or bad they are off road.

A 90 is small and narrow with short overhangs. This means it is nimble and easy to take anywhere. The boxy design also makes it very easy to see the corners of the vehicle off road, this allows you to easier navigate difficult terrain and avoid hitting objects with more success.

In a Defender you sit very close to the window, this is often wrongly criticised as having no elbow room. But there is method in this madness. It places you closer to the action and makes it so much easier to stick your head out and see what the front or rear wheels are doing. It also helps assess distance when things get tight off road.

A 110 is still narrow and has good approach and departure angles, but its longer wheelbase make it more cumbersome off road. Its much easier to beach due to a more restricted break over angle. It'll also have a bigger turning circle. This isn't to do the 110 dis-justice. But it is worth noting that when the going gets though the 90 will generally make an easier job of it.

A Discovery as some pluses and some downsides. First off it has a shorter wheelbase than a 110 so has a better turning circle and better ramp over angle. But the longer nose and boot give it worse approach and departure angles. But the biggest down side of a Discovery is its bulk. Against the tape measure a Discovery is actually no wider than a Defender if you measure the Defenders wheelarch flares. But with the Disco this extra width is carried the length of the vehicle. It's also taller and longer. Add to that a shape that is harder to see the corners of and it becomes more cumbersome off road and less agile.

In some terrain this won't matter at all, but when the going gets tight you'll really notice it. And in a Discovery you sit further away from the side window. This does give you elbow room, but it makes it harder to look out while off road.

Another downside with the Disco is the wheel arches are smaller, so you can't fit as big a tyre as you can on a stock Defender, although you can cut the arches or add a lift kit to help out. Steering components are also slightly more vulnerable on a Disco. But it shouldn't be a major concern.


This may sound like a I'm not doing the 110 and Disco any favours. Which is slightly unfair. They are both extremely capable and will likely handle green laning trips no problems at all (although I found a gate in mid Wales that my Disco didn't really fit thru. A 90 would have been a lot easier).

Where the size difference really comes in is if you plan to compete in RTV (Road Taxed Vehicle) trials or do something more extreme in off roading. If you think you'll drive were a lot of tree's are then the smaller the better.



So it comes down to things like this really:

Comfort - Disco
Maneuverability - 90
Seating - 110
Residuals - 90/110
Bank per buck - Disco
Engines - Disco
Spec - Disco
Off Road - tie, adv 90
Load lugging - 110
Towing - 110/Disco
Modability - tie


This is my current Discovery. It's a 1991 vintage. It has a 200Tdi diesel engine with the LT77 5 speed manual gearbox. It also has disc brake rear axle but is otherwise pretty basic spec. Twin glass sunroof, windup windows and no central locking.

I bought it about 5 years ago for £1300. Since then I've modded it a bit, it has a large front mount intercooler and has been tuned with increased turbo boost. Makes about 150bhp and runs pretty well. I've also chopped the arches out and added some aftermarket flares to allow me to run bigger 33.11.50R15 or 235/85R26 off road tyres.

My guess is it is worth between £800-1200 depending on what mods/tyres it was sold with. So has been fairly cost affect in residual terms over 5 years.

The chassis is solid, although the bodywork has needed some attention. I replaced the boot floor and the drivers floor now needs doing too.

I use the vehicle for a variety of task. Daily driver, going on holiday or camping, green laning, hauling  I also compete in ALRC RTV events. We got 2nd in class at last years National. But doing this has resulted in some body damage. Both front wings have dents, the roof does, all down the passenger side. The rear bumper is bent and I've broken a body mount.

I feel fairly sure most of the damage would not have occurred if I was driving a 90.

But that said the Disco was superb touring mid/North Wales last Easter, a day later I then went down to Cornwall and back. So its a very capable all round vehicle.




Rusty floor:



Off road damage:








Again just going back to the modification thing. There's no reason why you can't make a Discovery smaller for off road use. This is the great thing with Land Rovers. You truly can do everything, and most of it with just a set of spanners!

To start with, if you wanted you could turn a Discovery into a pickup, or you could Bobtail one (make it shorter, cut the tail off). Or even a Bobtailed pickup. It'll still be a bit wider than a 90, but a lot smaller than it started out like.

Bobtail Disco:


Bobtail pickup Disco:


It doesn't end here though. As I've said, underneath a Disco is very much the same as a Defender. So you could remove the body from a Disco and chop a bit out of the chassis (or add a bit for a lwb) and slap an older Landy body shell on, such as a Series 88 or 109.

This used to be a Range Rover, but a Disco could just as easily be converted:


Or there are several kits out there that use a Discovery as a basis such as the Dakar or the NCF Sahara:



http://www.ncfblitz.co.uk/page10a.html



Sorry for such a long post
But there was a lot to say. Essentially it has to be your decision on what is the better buy and which vehicle will best meet your requirements

[fb902350]

Now that is one awesome post!!!

have been trying to find alot of stuff out about disco's and this answers most of those.