Lifting a 300tdi Discovery
Discussion
Does anyone have any advice about lifting my truck. I want to go with a 2 inch lift but im not sure what else I have to change other than the shocks and springs. I have heard that the standard brake hoses (im planning on getting braided hoses eventually) are long enough to cope with 2" lift etc. Does the prop shaft need changing to compensate for the different angle and so on. Im not in a rush to do it but I want to do it all right first time cos rather than getting bits and bolting them on as I get them.
Cheers for any advice.
Cheers for any advice.
godzilla84 said:
Does anyone have any advice about lifting my truck. I want to go with a 2 inch lift but im not sure what else I have to change other than the shocks and springs. I have heard that the standard brake hoses (im planning on getting braided hoses eventually) are long enough to cope with 2" lift etc. Does the prop shaft need changing to compensate for the different angle and so on. Im not in a rush to do it but I want to do it all right first time cos rather than getting bits and bolting them on as I get them.
Cheers for any advice.
There are lots of answers and none fully correct or fully wrong.Cheers for any advice.
The biggest thing to know is why you want to lift it and what you want to do with the truck.
So if you want it for off road ability or just looks and will you be towing?
If it's just looks with little off road action then you might as well spend less and aim it more at on road ability.
If you want it to be better off road then your aim should be more axle articulation and flex. Some lift kits actually reduce this ability.
Brake lines - YES change these. You might get away with a 1" lift, although its the suspension droop which will cause the issues. But you can do the brake lines for under £80 so is there any reason not to do them?
Shocks and springs - this is were it gets complex. Assuming you want it for off road then you want something soft with plenty of travel. Using stock length shocks will be no good as you will not have enough wheel travel IMO so you need longer shocks. Generally the budget option is to get some +2" shocks from somewhere like Paddock spares. If you want better then look at some +5" Rough Country shocks from somewhere like Llama4x4.
If it's going to be a road biased vehicle then you can say sod it to the extra travel and probably opt for some more heavy duty standard length ones to improve or retain handling.
Springs - sadly this is a very complex area. Again if its on or off road biased will make a HUGE difference in choice. If you do go off road, do you compete with clubs like the ALRC because they don't allow some mods.
Option 1 - go for a standard length spring. You can then buy 1" or 2" lift packers (metal blocks to lift the spring seat up). For some reason these are less popular in the UK but I think its down to arrogance and not understanding them. They are popular in the US and work well. Advantages are price and the fact you can retain your standard spring rate (and springs even). On a road going setup this would be good or work well with some uprated springs.
Some of the off shelf lift kits supply lift springs, these are generally stiffer and longer and can affect ride.
If you want to go off road and have increased the wheel travel with longer shocks you then have an issue. The issue being a stock spring are not long enough to remain in contact with both the upper and lower spring seats at full articulation and the spring will fall out.
To this there are solutions:
1. Longer springs. These are popular in the US and Oz and are often referred to as "retained" setups. The downside is these long springs are softer and will affect on road ability. It's also difficult to get good long springs in the UK.
2. A dislocating setup. This uses standard length springs of what ever rating you want and typically uses a metal cone attached to one of the spring seats (although there are many variations on this). It essentially allows the spring to fall out of the seat under articulation and then reseat itself as the suspension compresses again. Elegant and efficient.
Down sides are cost, some complain of instability on side slopes. However they are proven to work and can retain fairly good road manners.
Shock mounts - The standard rear shock mount compromises travel. If you want more articulation and droop you will need to run different shock mounts. That said if you are going for a milder off road setup or on road leave the mounts as they are.
Same applies to the front shock towers. You may need different ones to accommodate specific shocks but if not leave them be.
Bushes and Radius arms - If you want more rear suspension travel it is worth fitting cranked rear trailing arms. Polybushes seem to help promote movement too. For on road setups leave as stock.
Front radius arms. These are a point of some debate. Yes they come in caster correct format but these offer no extra off road ability in terms of flex. And I have my doubts on how affective they are on road.
The reasoning behind this is the correction is only small. Land Rover axles are located (attached) to the vehicle via rubber bushes so move about anyway and if its an off road you are likely to be running knobbly off road tyres. Which means correcting the caster will probably have little effect or notice from the drivers seat. If its an on road setup running full polybushes and road biased tyres then there's a little more argument that they are a wise thing to do.
My advice would be to try without them and see how you get on, if you are really unhappy with the steering then fit them afterwards. It won't cost any more but could save hundreds.
Props - Here is another area that can cause dispute. Raising the ride height WILL affect the pinion angles on the props, there is no denying this. But that's not the whole story. Droop can cause just as many issues with binding unless running wide angle yokes on the props. So it again depends on your setup and use.
I've been told a 1" lift will most likely be fine with stock props and you can even get away with a 2" although they will wear quicker.
If you go for a milder off road setup or on road it might be worth sticking with the stock ones until the wear out and then replace them with wide angle ones. At £180+ each its an expensive addition to add right away. If you go for an extreme flex off road setup then you'll probably be better doing them straight away.
Companies and people to speak to:
David @ Llama4x4: http://www.llama4x4.co.uk/
David is very very helpful and will help sort out what you need (even if he doesn't sell it). Well worth a call and he does some very good brake lines too.
Simon @ X-Eng: http://www.x-eng.co.uk/
Very helpful people and offer some unique and interesting setups. Worth a look and maybe mix and match some Llama components with some of X-Engs.
Paddock Spares: http://www.paddockspares.com/
Not the same specialists as the others. But huge range of parts and often cheap. So if you know exactly what you want and they sell it, chances are the price might be good.
My setup:
I wanted a fully off road setup. However I compete in ALRC (Association of Land Rover Clubs) events and they prohibit things like dislocating suspension and cranked trailing arms.
Springs - standard Range Rover HD springs (red/white stripe). These are cheap and long and make a good off road setup.
Shocks - ProComp +2"
Extended brake lines.
1" lift packers from Llama4x4.
Sadly I haven't got this onto the Disco yet but the springs should give a 0.5-1" lift on their own plus the 1" lift of the packers.
As I can't allow the springs to dislocate I will use a small 'D' exhaust clamp to retain the tops of the rear springs to the upper spring seat. At the front the stock turrets will prevent the spring falling out should it dislocate. And running stock suspension/axle stops.
Over all I should gain more droop, more upwards travel and a more flexy setup with increased ride height. I accept on road it won't be as good, but it should be acceptable for my needs. I also don't run any anti-roll bars (not that mine had any stock anyway).
The trailing arms will probably be the biggest limiting factor.
It should be a descent step up from stock without being silly money wise.
Assuming no money and competition regulation restrictions I would probably go for:
Llama4x4 =5" shocks and rear shock mounts and turrets.
X-Eng's X-spring and rose jointed trailing arms.
Some sensible springs to match and lift packers to attain the desired ride height.
Wide angle yoke props.
Poly bushes.
Hope this helps
The main reason I want to lift it is so that I can fit taller tyres. All the times I have taken it off road, the diff pan getting grounded is the only thing thats stopped me following other people.
Its used mainly on the road at the moment but I want to set it up for off road use and have a second car.
Its used mainly on the road at the moment but I want to set it up for off road use and have a second car.
godzilla84 said:
The main reason I want to lift it is so that I can fit taller tyres. All the times I have taken it off road, the diff pan getting grounded is the only thing thats stopped me following other people.
Its used mainly on the road at the moment but I want to set it up for off road use and have a second car.
What size tyres so you want to run and what have you got on there at the mo?Its used mainly on the road at the moment but I want to set it up for off road use and have a second car.
Chances are you'll have to trim the arches a little bit. There's a mod called the "Camel Trim", which is what LR did the to vehicles used on the Camel Trophy. Basically it just trims the back of the rear arch to stop it fowling under articulation.
If you go for bigger or more extreme tyres and more flexy suspension you'll have to trim more.
On my Disco I've run some 31.10.50R15's
These where quite nice and chunky looking. But did rub on the front bumper corners. I pulled these off, but you could trim them along the horizontal edge of the bumper frame, or run an after market bumper. Apart from this they'll fit without a lift.
I also have some 235/85R16's, these are quite narrow and about 32" tall.
Some people like to run 265/75R16's but in a lower profile. These are generally not quite as tall as the 235's but wider. If these stick out from the arches you'll need some extended arches to remain legal in the UK.
My normal tyre however is a 33.11.50R15, these are about 290 width and measure nearly 34" tall. They fitted without a lift but I did hack all the arches and put on an aftermarket flared arch kit.
To fit wider tyres than stock you may need to get some wider or different offset rims. This is to stop them rubbing and retain steering lock.
In most cases bigger tyres will rub on the front radius arms at full lock, its easy to adjust the steering stops to prevent this.
It might be worth looking at some wheel spacers if you go for a wide tyre, just remember you'll need wheel arch extensions.
The only downside too all this is bigger wheels make it easier to break the weak ass Rover diffs, CV's and halfshafts. But much of that is down to the driver.
Bigger, wider, taller heavier tyres will also affect performance an economy. Partly due to gearing. If motorway work is not important it might be worth swapping the diff gears, but its bloody expensive.
Another option is to up the HP of the TDI unit. It's fairly easy (so long as its not one of the latter ECU controlled engines).
A bigger intercooler and a tweak or two of injector pump will see 35% gains in HP and torque, although it'll feel more like a 100hp extra
This is my Disco as it is at the mo:
This is running HD shocks and springs but standard ride height with the 33.11.50R15 Simex Jungle Tekker II tyres and chopped arches. With the suspension kit on it'll be 1-1.5" higher with more flexy suspension.
This is it a number of years ago on the 31.10.50R15 BFG A/T's before the chopped arches:
This is it with the same tyres on but with chopped arches, it makes it look like it has a huge lift and the tyres that once filled the arches now look a little lost IMO:
I know im running 235s at the moment but I cant remember if they are 235/70 or 235/75.
My aim was to fit 265/75/16s but going on what you have said about 235/85s I might go for those instead. Although the wider ones will "look cooler".
If I can fit those without lifting it I will just trim the arches for time being and stick the tyres on and see how it goes after that.
My aim was to fit 265/75/16s but going on what you have said about 235/85s I might go for those instead. Although the wider ones will "look cooler".
If I can fit those without lifting it I will just trim the arches for time being and stick the tyres on and see how it goes after that.
If you are happy to hack the arches then I'd just do that. I've had no issue's.
235/85's shouldn't stick out of the arches even on steel rims. But you may want to get some arch flares to make it look tidier.
I used a jigsaw to trim mine, but it's not a prim and polished job, the flares hide all that. Only thing to watch with the flares is they are expensive and most are fibreglass. These can and do brake if they take a whack! Some people adapt Defender flares to fit.
These are with it with some mud terrain 235/85's on. They fill the arches ok and only look small because I'm used to the Simex's
235/85's shouldn't stick out of the arches even on steel rims. But you may want to get some arch flares to make it look tidier.
I used a jigsaw to trim mine, but it's not a prim and polished job, the flares hide all that. Only thing to watch with the flares is they are expensive and most are fibreglass. These can and do brake if they take a whack! Some people adapt Defender flares to fit.
These are with it with some mud terrain 235/85's on. They fill the arches ok and only look small because I'm used to the Simex's
godzilla84 said:
I know im running 235s at the moment but I cant remember if they are 235/70 or 235/75.
My aim was to fit 265/75/16s but going on what you have said about 235/85s I might go for those instead. Although the wider ones will "look cooler".
If I can fit those without lifting it I will just trim the arches for time being and stick the tyres on and see how it goes after that.
265/75/16s are pretty much the same diameter as 235/85/16s (Sidewall height 199mm vs 200mm respectively), but as they're narrower they're less likely to foul when turning. Skinnier tyres arguably also have the advantage in mud as they cut through more easily to reach firmer ground, and as lowering tyre pressures lengthens the contact patch so much don't have a huge disadvantage when you don't want to dig in.My aim was to fit 265/75/16s but going on what you have said about 235/85s I might go for those instead. Although the wider ones will "look cooler".
If I can fit those without lifting it I will just trim the arches for time being and stick the tyres on and see how it goes after that.
Re shocks - I'd vote for Procomps too (And had Bearmach +2 HD springs). When we were travelling in Africa we were the only people we met who didn't have suspension issues.
Re propshafts - IIRC the later Td5 rear propshaft is supposed to be stronger.
On topic Landy porn -
It's a rangie chassis running standard arms (but polybushed), standard props, +2" Range Rover HD springs and +2 pro comp shocks on the front, +1" 110 HD springs and 1" spacers with +2" pro comp springs (with retaining exhaust clamps) on the rear.
It's been like this for about 10 years/15,000 miles. The front has dropped a bit over time and could do with a refresh.
The standard UJs lasted about 12,000 miles and could really do with upgrading, but I'm not bothered with the failure given the low mileage that it now does. Other than some surface rust on the shock bodies they still seem to operate like new.
It's a rangie chassis running standard arms (but polybushed), standard props, +2" Range Rover HD springs and +2 pro comp shocks on the front, +1" 110 HD springs and 1" spacers with +2" pro comp springs (with retaining exhaust clamps) on the rear.
It's been like this for about 10 years/15,000 miles. The front has dropped a bit over time and could do with a refresh.
The standard UJs lasted about 12,000 miles and could really do with upgrading, but I'm not bothered with the failure given the low mileage that it now does. Other than some surface rust on the shock bodies they still seem to operate like new.
Edited by JimexPL on Saturday 26th September 12:47
here's some more landy porn ...
In the top one, the disco was well stuck and I was trying to splash the driver inour Jeep
This one .. is a Disco TDI300, with snorkle .. hitting water at 25 miles an hour !
The next shot in the sequence
and comming back the other way ...
Before people start to flame me for my actions here .. first of all the owner of the disco doesnt really care about the vehicle, secondly, the MOD didnt seem to mind us playing in that Tank created Mud hole (neither did the Warden who was watching us at the time) and thirdly, there was no mechanical damage done to the vehicle (all breathers are taken well out of the water)
In the top one, the disco was well stuck and I was trying to splash the driver inour Jeep
This one .. is a Disco TDI300, with snorkle .. hitting water at 25 miles an hour !
The next shot in the sequence
and comming back the other way ...
Before people start to flame me for my actions here .. first of all the owner of the disco doesnt really care about the vehicle, secondly, the MOD didnt seem to mind us playing in that Tank created Mud hole (neither did the Warden who was watching us at the time) and thirdly, there was no mechanical damage done to the vehicle (all breathers are taken well out of the water)
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