4x4 Advise Please!
Discussion
We have a 120acre farm (marsh land - lots of mud at this time of the year) and are looking for a 4x4. Conditions are plenty of manure and very wet surfaces all year round, some grass.
I need something under £5000, must be automatic with petrol engine preferable 4 litre plus.
Will be used on the odd occasion to go/talk to contractors working on our farm and occasionally used to move small items/food etc.
We will be putting knobbly tyres on and will need good ground clearance (more than a Rav4 - which we are currently using).
Any recomendations?
I need something under £5000, must be automatic with petrol engine preferable 4 litre plus.
Will be used on the odd occasion to go/talk to contractors working on our farm and occasionally used to move small items/food etc.
We will be putting knobbly tyres on and will need good ground clearance (more than a Rav4 - which we are currently using).
Any recomendations?
pugwash4x4 said:
Landcruiser 80 series
in stock form they outperform every LR ever made- its the axle lockers and equivalent articulation
fit a set of 285/75r16 BFG MTs and they will go anywhere you will need to in a field
they also wont rot even with multiple dunkings!
Excellent vehicles, but his farm is marsh land. The last thing he needs is two and a half tons of LC sunk up to it's axles with all four wheels going round, courtesy of the diff-locks and needing a JCB to recover it!in stock form they outperform every LR ever made- its the axle lockers and equivalent articulation
fit a set of 285/75r16 BFG MTs and they will go anywhere you will need to in a field
they also wont rot even with multiple dunkings!
On marshy land light weight is your friend so I would advise a stripped out LR 90 or 110 V8 or even an early Discovery V8 with everything unecessary removed. You will also need the widest tyres possible for floatation, maybe even a set of Avon Tredlites. Better still a Suzuki SJ410 with decent tyres, but that probably won't give you the load carrying you need.
Id go with an SJ420 any day
but as for LR over Lancruiser. If you work the numbers out you can happily fit 35"x12" MTS on a cruiser and you get substantially lower ground presure than a defender on 255/85s
i am yet to come across a situation where i do not have MORE traction than a defender- often haev more traction when using my MTs than comp 90s on simexes!
but as for LR over Lancruiser. If you work the numbers out you can happily fit 35"x12" MTS on a cruiser and you get substantially lower ground presure than a defender on 255/85s
i am yet to come across a situation where i do not have MORE traction than a defender- often haev more traction when using my MTs than comp 90s on simexes!
pugwash4x4 said:
Id go with an SJ420 any day
but as for LR over Lancruiser. If you work the numbers out you can happily fit 35"x12" MTS on a cruiser and you get substantially lower ground presure than a defender on 255/85s
i am yet to come across a situation where i do not have MORE traction than a defender- often haev more traction when using my MTs than comp 90s on simexes!
You want to get out more, I got bored towing those overweight Land Cruisers out of the clag all the time. They seem particularly prone to getting stuck on side slopes and their diff-locks are no substitute for their lacking wheel travel. Simex are sh!t whatever you fit them to. Four wheels touching the ground gets farther than two touching with diff-locks and two waving in the air. Of course if he buys a jap import which is quite likely on his budget only 40% of them have diff-locks anyway and he can look forward paying as much to replace the fragile fuel pump as a whole replacement V8 will cost for the LR. Ditto the somewhat variable quality gearboxes. For pottering round a swampy farm cheap and easy repair beats overland reliability every time.but as for LR over Lancruiser. If you work the numbers out you can happily fit 35"x12" MTS on a cruiser and you get substantially lower ground presure than a defender on 255/85s
i am yet to come across a situation where i do not have MORE traction than a defender- often haev more traction when using my MTs than comp 90s on simexes!
As for the 255s, he'd be better off running 33x12.50x15 which I've run easily on a 110 and give less ground pressure than your 35's on the LC. And no, they don't rub before you ask. Best of all for his needs though would be a set of 31x15.50x15 Terra flotation tyres on a set of cheap 8 spokes on a nice light ally V8 LR will be far better than a nose heavy LC on sodden marshes.
TVR Moneypit said:
LR = rust. V8 LR = rust + overheating problems.
Never had any of my three LR V8's overheat, not even the 90 V8 driven to Kenya and back via Italy or across Morocco and Tunisia. Maybe you need to clean out your rad? 
The bulkheads and out-riggers do rust eventually but it's easy and cheap to weld a new one in so why worry! I mean it's not like it's a TVR or something!
BigLepton said:
pugwash4x4 said:
Id go with an SJ420 any day
but as for LR over Lancruiser. If you work the numbers out you can happily fit 35"x12" MTS on a cruiser and you get substantially lower ground presure than a defender on 255/85s
i am yet to come across a situation where i do not have MORE traction than a defender- often haev more traction when using my MTs than comp 90s on simexes!
You want to get out more,but as for LR over Lancruiser. If you work the numbers out you can happily fit 35"x12" MTS on a cruiser and you get substantially lower ground presure than a defender on 255/85s
i am yet to come across a situation where i do not have MORE traction than a defender- often haev more traction when using my MTs than comp 90s on simexes!
BigLepton said:
I got bored towing those overweight Land Cruisers out of the clag all the time. They seem particularly prone to getting stuck on side slopes and their diff-locks are no substitute for their lacking wheel travel.
I love arm chair off roaders. My Cruiser has more articulation than a 110- recent RTI comps prove that using the OEC4x4 RTI Ramp.
BigLepton said:
Simex are sh!t whatever you fit them to.
uuhhhhhh right- so you'd rather run what? some Cooper all terrains? Personally i'm a 38" bogger man, but to Simex are s
t is just....................stBigLepton said:
Four wheels touching the ground gets farther than two touching with diff-locks and two waving in the air. Of course if he buys a jap import which is quite likely on his budget only 40% of them have diff-locks anyway and he can look forward paying as much to replace the fragile fuel pump as a whole replacement V8 will cost for the LR.
WOW fragile fuel pump? that being the same fuel pump that is in 200 and 300 tdi- albeit with 2 more ports? of course he could buy a cheap rover V8 which will have a porous block, and need a new cam after 120,000 miles- but then you'll probably say he just needs a 4.6 as that never has any problems. Altertatively on his budget he could easily buy a evry very nice condition UK truck which will probably go on for 300,000 miles or so without rustingBigLepton said:
Ditto the somewhat variable quality gearboxes. For pottering round a swampy farm cheap and easy repair beats overland reliability every time.
variable quality gearboxes? guess we're talking about LRs again- the only g/box worth a damn was the LT90 and the TF727 3 spd auto.
BigLepton said:
As for the 255s, he'd be better off running 33x12.50x15 which I've run easily on a 110 and give less ground pressure than your 35's on the LC. And no, they don't rub before you ask. Best of all for his needs though would be a set of 31x15.50x15 Terra flotation tyres on a set of cheap 8 spokes on a nice light ally V8 LR will be far better than a nose heavy LC on sodden marshes.
have you calculated the ground pressures? do you have any clue yhow much an LC actually weighs? or do you just like talking out of your arse? Land rovers are fine, but there is a reason why fewer and fewer farmers are using them- preferring Hi-luxes, Landcruisers and subarus. They dont' go wrong, they don't fall apart, they are often as good if not better than LRs. I've been a green oval fan all my life, but talking about them like they are the best in the world just shows how little experience you have of off roading. Edited by pugwash4x4 on Monday 1st December 07:08
LC fanboy said:
ok thanks Mr Patronising- guess over land trips to Russia, Jo'Burg and Singapore don't count then? Neither do my 7 range rover classics, various series and various defenders. Suppose my competition truck on Mog portals with a chevy V8 doesn't mean i have any experience either?
Yes, they count as much as my overlanding in North Africa, Australia, Arizona and Nevada and Thailand amongst others, my 15 years of RTVing and my decade of driving all round the world for HM Forces, all done in the company of various marques including your beloved Land cruisers. 
The difference is I can see the advantages and disadvantages of these different makes, all you can answer is 'Land Cruiser!' whatever the question is, because you are a total fanboy.pugwash4x4 said:
I love arm chair off roaders.
Well that's why you worship the LC - they do have comfy seats for you to look down on everyone else from. . . . . .pugwash4x4 said:
My Cruiser has more articulation than a 110- recent RTI comps prove that using the OEC4x4 RTI Ramp.
Than a 110? Any 110? Modded or unmodded? Entirely possible of course but more axle travel stock for stock? Not in my experience.pugwash4x4 said:
uuhhhhhh right- so you'd rather run what? some Cooper all terrains? Personally i'm a 38" bogger man, but to Simex are st is just....................st
Simex are sh!t. You overland on 38" boggers? t is just....................st
Simex are OK for playing in a field but useless for overlanding as the quality is terrible. If I'm going to overland where I need serious mud capability but have a lot of road miles to do, I'll take Interco TSL Thornbirds over Simex any day of the week so when I get to the mud I still have some rubber lumps left on the tyre.pugwash4x4 said:
WOW fragile fuel pump? that being the same fuel pump that is in 200 and 300 tdi- albeit with 2 more ports? of course he could buy a cheap rover V8 which will have a porous block, and need a new cam after 120,000 miles- but then you'll probably say he just needs a 4.6 as that never has any problems. Altertatively on his budget he could easily buy a evry very nice condition UK truck which will probably go on for 300,000 miles or so without rusting
You just can't see past your LC fanboy blindness to what the OP needs can you? He wants a runabout for his marshy farm, nothing more, nothing less. I doubt he will do 1000 miles a year in it. He also has a brand new Range Rover, Rolls Royce and Bentley Continental. The last thing he needs is a heavy LC that will last for ever. Excellent vehicles though they are, what he needs here is lightness.pugwash4x4 said:
variable quality gearboxes? guess we're talking about LRs again- the only g/box worth a damn was the LT90 and the TF727 3 spd auto.
I see you're making it up as you go along now. You claim to have had a lot of Land Rovers yet you don't realise there is no such thing as an LT90 gearbox. It's an LT85 I think you are struggling to remember like the one in my recently sold factory 90 V8. Schoolboy error.pugwash4x4 said:
have you calculated the ground pressures? do you have any clue yhow much an LC actually weighs? or do you just like talking out of your arse? Land rovers are fine, but there is a reason why fewer and fewer farmers are using them- preferring Hi-luxes, Landcruisers and subarus. They dont' go wrong, they don't fall apart, they are often as good if not better than LRs. I've been a green oval fan all my life, but talking about them like they are the best in the world just shows how little experience you have of off roading.
Yes, I have done a few figures. A 110 V8 on 33x12.50x15 results in a lot less GP than a LC80 on the 35x1250 you recommend and low GP in this application is far more important than reliability.Your last sentence really gives you away. I didn't come on here claiming LR's are the best thing since sliced bread. I came on suggesting that in this application one may well suit the OP precisely because reliability was not an issue in this instance. That of course made your fanboy side throw his toys out of the pram because you are absolutely sure that LC's are better than everything, at everything and must not be argued with. You don't also own a 335d (mapped) do you? I hear they are the best at everthing as well. . . . . . .
BigLepton said:
LC fanboy said:
ok thanks Mr Patronising- guess over land trips to Russia, Jo'Burg and Singapore don't count then? Neither do my 7 range rover classics, various series and various defenders. Suppose my competition truck on Mog portals with a chevy V8 doesn't mean i have any experience either?
Yes, they count as much as my overlanding in North Africa, Australia, Arizona and Nevada and Thailand amongst others, my 15 years of RTVing and my decade of driving all round the world for HM Forces, all done in the company of various marques including your beloved Land cruisers. The difference is I can see the advantages and disadvantages of these different makes, all you can answer is 'Land Cruiser!' whatever the question is, because you are a total fanboy.pugwash4x4 said:
I love arm chair off roaders.
Well that's why you worship the LC - they do have comfy seats for you to look down on everyone else from. . . . . .pugwash4x4 said:
My Cruiser has more articulation than a 110- recent RTI comps prove that using the OEC4x4 RTI Ramp.
Than a 110? Any 110? Modded or unmodded? Entirely possible of course but more axle travel stock for stock? Not in my experience.pugwash4x4 said:
uuhhhhhh right- so you'd rather run what? some Cooper all terrains? Personally i'm a 38" bogger man, but to Simex are st is just....................st
Simex are sh!t. You overland on 38" boggers? t is just....................st Simex are OK for playing in a field but useless for overlanding as the quality is terrible. If I'm going to overland where I need serious mud capability but have a lot of road miles to do, I'll take Interco TSL Thornbirds over Simex any day of the week so when I get to the mud I still have some rubber lumps left on the tyre.pugwash4x4 said:
WOW fragile fuel pump? that being the same fuel pump that is in 200 and 300 tdi- albeit with 2 more ports? of course he could buy a cheap rover V8 which will have a porous block, and need a new cam after 120,000 miles- but then you'll probably say he just needs a 4.6 as that never has any problems. Altertatively on his budget he could easily buy a evry very nice condition UK truck which will probably go on for 300,000 miles or so without rusting
You just can't see past your LC fanboy blindness to what the OP needs can you? He wants a runabout for his marshy farm, nothing more, nothing less. I doubt he will do 1000 miles a year in it. He also has a brand new Range Rover, Rolls Royce and Bentley Continental. The last thing he needs is a heavy LC that will last for ever. Excellent vehicles though they are, what he needs here is lightness.pugwash4x4 said:
variable quality gearboxes? guess we're talking about LRs again- the only g/box worth a damn was the LT90 and the TF727 3 spd auto.
I see you're making it up as you go along now. You claim to have had a lot of Land Rovers yet you don't realise there is no such thing as an LT90 gearbox. It's an LT85 I think you are struggling to remember like the one in my recently sold factory 90 V8. Schoolboy error.pugwash4x4 said:
have you calculated the ground pressures? do you have any clue yhow much an LC actually weighs? or do you just like talking out of your arse? Land rovers are fine, but there is a reason why fewer and fewer farmers are using them- preferring Hi-luxes, Landcruisers and subarus. They dont' go wrong, they don't fall apart, they are often as good if not better than LRs. I've been a green oval fan all my life, but talking about them like they are the best in the world just shows how little experience you have of off roading.
Yes, I have done a few figures. A 110 V8 on 33x12.50x15 results in a lot less GP than a LC80 on the 35x1250 you recommend and low GP in this application is far more important than reliability.Your last sentence really gives you away. I didn't come on here claiming LR's are the best thing since sliced bread. I came on suggesting that in this application one may well suit the OP precisely because reliability was not an issue in this instance. That of course made your fanboy side throw his toys out of the pram because you are absolutely sure that LC's are better than everything, at everything and must not be argued with. You don't also own a 335d (mapped) do you? I hear they are the best at everthing as well. . . . . . .
2. Articulation- not that this is relevant to the OP (so i probably shoudn't have mentioned it), but yes i was very surprised to find out the amount of articulation that an LC80 has- and yes it did give a batter RTI (something like 570 to 565 so not a lot) then a 110- both on 33" with a nominal 2" lift. The result wasn't what i was expecting.
3. Simex- the whole simex thing was mentioned in relation to extreme traction NOT in overlanding. Personally I use BFG MTs for overlanding- prefer the sidewall strength over ATs, find the sand performance reasonable on unbroken sand, and good in broken dug sand. For OP simex wouldn't acutally be a bad choice- he's never going to get stuck on them, they aren't going to get worn down on the truck, NVH isn't an issue and neither is wet weather handling! Although for good sense you'd have to recommend a good MT. Dont have any experience with Thornbirds so won't comment on them- as mentioned i'm a Bogger man.
4. Lightness- there is a 270kg difference between an 80 series and a 110. i really don't think the OP is going to get stuck for 270kg of weigh, i also think its highly unlikely that he will want to start replacing chassis' bulkheads etc. Frnkaly if he's going to be driving right through the middle of any swamp then he's going to need something more than you can get from a standard manufacturer. And if he isn't going to be driving through a swamp then he doesn't need to worry about weight so much and reliability will be more important (and please dont tell me that LRs and more reliable than LCs!)
5. Gearbox- typo- I should have written LT95- the LT85 is crap. Go look the former up- schoolboy error if a fanboy like you doesn't know what an LT95 is! One box that LR did get right is the LT230- no wonder its survived so many years- i've got one with 350bhp going through it for over 2 years now and its been perfect.
6. Ground pressure- assume that 20% of a tire is in contact with mud when off roading. Assume a 110 weighs 1970kg and a LC weighs 2220kg (according to pubished specs). Contact size of 4 x 35" tire is 10585 square inches. Contact size of 4 x 33" tires is 829. Weight of cruiser in Lb is 4884, that of the 110 is 829, PSI of cruiser is therefore 4.6, that of 110 is 5.23. LC80 has 12% reduced ground pressure over LR.
7. Head and Arse. When you finally remove you head out of your spincter maybe we can try and answer the OPs quetsions.
OP- BigLepton and I are arguing the toss about the off road prowess of vehicles in fairly extreme situations- ie up to or past your axles in mud and in seriously off camber situations. Are you likely to encounter this? What do you need the increased ground clearance for?
Will the vehicle be doing many road miles? how important are creature comforts? Do you need a working vehicle- ie one that doesn't matter what you chuck in it, or if you get in it covered in mud and manure?
For utter off road prowess the C303 pictured above (the red thing) will pretty much beat any landrover and landcruiser and they aren't totally uncomfortable! Not sure about the auto thing with them though.
Edited by pugwash4x4 on Monday 1st December 15:02
pugwash4x4 said:
For utter off road prowess the C303 pictured above (the red thing) will pretty much beat any landrover and landcruiser and they aren't totally uncomfortable! Not sure about the auto thing with them though.
Ooops! missed the auto requirement. 
It's got a B30 motor so it's probably doable...
pugwash4x4 said:
1. Fanboy. Hmm possibly, if that means i rate a £5k LC80 above a £5k LR product then i guess yep i am a fanboy. Glad you are back to being patronising again. If you had read my earlier post i clearly said that a SJ410 is a good choice for a farm, although i will admit that my earlier post was a little Sermon Like- a bit like a certain other persons?
Nope. I suggested a LR for this application. You suggest a LC for every application and then go onto criticise LR's. I argued with your assertion that your LC was better off-road than any LR. If I'm patronising, it's because you are arrogant about other peoples opinions.pugwash4x4 said:
2. Articulation- not that this is relevant to the OP (so i probably shoudn't have mentioned it), but yes i was very surprised to find out the amount of articulation that an LC80 has- and yes it did give a batter RTI (something like 570 to 565 so not a lot) then a 110- both on 33" with a nominal 2" lift. The result wasn't what i was expecting.
So you're comparing modded vehicles? Pretty irrelevant comparison then as mods are as varied as the people who fit them. Articulation may or may not be important to the OP - neither of us have seen his farm.pugwash4x4 said:
3. Simex- the whole simex thing was mentioned in relation to extreme traction NOT in overlanding. Personally I use BFG MTs for overlanding- prefer the sidewall strength over ATs, find the sand performance reasonable on unbroken sand, and good in broken dug sand. For OP simex wouldn't acutally be a bad choice- he's never going to get stuck on them, they aren't going to get worn down on the truck, NVH isn't an issue and neither is wet weather handling! Although for good sense you'd have to recommend a good MT. Dont have any experience with Thornbirds so won't comment on them- as mentioned i'm a Bogger man.
Agreed on the MT's - I'd take them over AT's on everything but sand. Shame you still can't get the old Michelin XS sand tyres. The Thornbirds are like properly made simex that you can actually balance and half decent on the road.pugwash4x4 said:
4. Lightness- there is a 270kg difference between an 80 series and a 110. i really don't think the OP is going to get stuck for 270kg of weigh, i also think its highly unlikely that he will want to start replacing chassis' bulkheads etc. Frnkaly if he's going to be driving right through the middle of any swamp then he's going to need something more than you can get from a standard manufacturer. And if he isn't going to be driving through a swamp then he doesn't need to worry about weight so much and reliability will be more important (and please dont tell me that LRs and more reliable than LCs!)
No, there is 270kg between a diesel 110 and a LC80, but I keep suggesting a V8 LR which is at least another 100kgs lighter. I won't tell you that LC's are less reliable than LR's as long as you stop trying to tell me they are better off-road. . . . .pugwash4x4 said:
5. Gearbox- typo- I should have written LT95- the LT85 is crap. Go look the former up- schoolboy error if a fanboy like you doesn't know what an LT95 is! One box that LR did get right is the LT230- no wonder its survived so many years- i've got one with 350bhp going through it for over 2 years now and its been perfect.
Oh yes, I'm supposed to be able to tell what you mean when you don't know. You can always spot a fanboy because instead of just giving his suggestion, he will start criticising everyone elses opinions like you did. The LT85 is a very strong if noisy box. Mine had 150,000 miles of abuse on it when I sold it including the abuse handed out by a truetrac up front and detroit locker in the rear. Never gave me a seconds trouble.pugwash4x4 said:
6. Ground pressure- assume that 20% of a tire is in contact with mud when off roading. Assume a 110 weighs 1970kg and a LC weighs 2220kg (according to pubished specs). Contact size of 4 x 35" tire is 10585 square inches. Contact size of 4 x 33" tires is 829. Weight of cruiser in Lb is 4884, that of the 110 is 829, PSI of cruiser is therefore 4.6, that of 110 is 5.23. LC80 has 12% reduced ground pressure over LR.
Errrr, no. Firstly it is the tyre width that is important, not the overall height as the actual contact patch of a 35x12.50 is close enough to a 33x12.50 not to matter for GP. The rule of thumb with contact patches in mud is that the length of the CP will be 1.5 times the width. Thus if we have a 12.5" wide tyre the CP length will be around 18.75". This gives us a CP area of about 234 sq inches for both tyres giving which means 5.2psi for the LC and 4.6psi for the 110 diesel. The actual psi for a 110 V8 as I suggested would be lower still. Did you say 35's would go on a LC80 without a lift or mods? Everywhere I read says they won't.pugwash4x4 said:
7. Head and Arse. When you finally remove you head out of your spincter maybe we can try and answer the OPs quetsions.
You have never tried to answer the OP's quetions. You keep harping on about irrelevant 300,000 mile reliability on a 1000 mile a year farm hack. When you take yours out, you'll finally start hearing what the OP asked, though whatever the question, your answer will be LC! 
This the unbreakable 80 series Pugwash!!
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?s=&showtopic...
Not really having a dig. I now live in Oz, the home of cruisers and patrols and they arent totally unbreakable as you keep suggesting. They also arent any better off road than a comparable Rover or Nissan.....
Parts are also stupidly expensive, even here. (more than LR's)
I still think that a RRC, D1 or D2 V8 auto will fit the OP's requirements more closely than anything else.
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?s=&showtopic...
Not really having a dig.
I now live in Oz, the home of cruisers and patrols and they arent totally unbreakable as you keep suggesting. They also arent any better off road than a comparable Rover or Nissan.....Parts are also stupidly expensive, even here. (more than LR's)
I still think that a RRC, D1 or D2 V8 auto will fit the OP's requirements more closely than anything else.
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